The Islamic State

[Horza]

That 800 vs 40,000 figure is dubious and misleading.

Also, keyboard warriors who know they would have done better would sound more credible if they didn't talk like insurgency conflict was a knock-down field battle and knew basic facts like 1. the Iraqi army had been fighting in Anbar, Nineveh and Salahuddin provinces for months, Ramadi and Fallujah having fallen in January and Febuary, 2. they were fighting more groups than just ISIS, 3. the local population was hostile to actively supportive of the insurgents -- to list just a few.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

I wouldn't consider Gates a trustworthy source. This is the guy who wrote this:

in his memoirs.

Thereby breaking the scale on obliviousness.

Back to my OP. Gates is full of shit.

But I guess this is my standard in IR:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DcR5qpRAGE

Last 15 seconds of a 1 minute video. JFK at his best, which was always.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

I wouldn't consider Gates a trustworthy source. This is the guy who wrote this:

in his memoirs.

Thereby breaking the scale on obliviousness.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but it would be absolutely absurd to draw the conclusion that Gates is not a trustworthy source in general because he, like every other person on the planet, has biases, prejudices and, yes, significant blind spots. I've read Duty. There's a hell of a lot more to pick at in the book. There are numerous examples of Gates making general statements about someone's character while providing specific examples that seem to directly contradict those general statements. I don't think I've ever met a person who, if they had to write a 500 page autobiography about the most challenging 4 years of their career, would not provide ample opportunity for serious nitpicking. People are messy and complicated and biased and self-serving. But Gates' memoir is a primary source, and when he says someone said something based off his first hand knowledge, that's just about the best evidence we have that it actually happened, barring confirmation by the person who allegedly spoke.

[The Fallen]

It's a bad idea. And it's technically illegal, but whatever.

Bad mentality. People are dying...

It was a joke at the expense of the Iraqi military.

That 800 vs 40,000 figure is dubious and misleading.

Also, keyboard warriors who know they would have done better would sound more credible if they didn't talk like insurgency conflict was a knock-down field battle and knew basic facts like 1. the Iraqi army had been fighting in Anbar, Nineveh and Salahuddin provinces for months, Ramadi and Fallujah having fallen in January and Febuary, 2. they were fighting more groups than just ISIS, 3. the local population was hostile to actively supportive of the insurgents -- to list just a few.

See above.

A retreat would be one thing. These guys dropped their weapons and left behind gear and equipment for the enemy to use against them. If that's not incompetence then what is?

[Shryke]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but it would be absolutely absurd to draw the conclusion that Gates is not a trustworthy source in general because he, like every other person on the planet, has biases, prejudices and, yes, significant blind spots. I've read Duty. There's a hell of a lot more to pick at in the book. There are numerous examples of Gates making general statements about someone's character while providing specific examples that seem to directly contradict those general statements. I don't think I've ever met a person who, if they had to write a 500 page autobiography about the most challenging 4 years of their career, would not provide ample opportunity for serious nitpicking. People are messy and complicated and biased and self-serving. But Gates' memoir is a primary source, and when he says someone said something based off his first hand knowledge, that's just about the best evidence we have that it actually happened, barring confirmation by the person who allegedly spoke.

The fact that, as you already admit, he has biases, prejudices and significant blind spots is exactly why you shouldn't trust what he claims to have been the character of these events. That's the very definition of why you don't trust some sources.

When alot of the content reads like a guy with an axe to grind against certain people, you should be careful about believing what he says about those certain people.

[The Fallen]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but it would be absolutely absurd to draw the conclusion that Gates is not a trustworthy source in general because he, like every other person on the planet, has biases, prejudices and, yes, significant blind spots. I've read Duty. There's a hell of a lot more to pick at in the book. There are numerous examples of Gates making general statements about someone's character while providing specific examples that seem to directly contradict those general statements. I don't think I've ever met a person who, if they had to write a 500 page autobiography about the most challenging 4 years of their career, would not provide ample opportunity for serious nitpicking. People are messy and complicated and biased and self-serving. But Gates' memoir is a primary source, and when he says someone said something based off his first hand knowledge, that's just about the best evidence we have that it actually happened, barring confirmation by the person who allegedly spoke.

You didn't answer my question though. If these strikes help to halt ISIS' advance, should the criticism die down?

[James Arryn]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but it would be absolutely absurd to draw the conclusion that Gates is not a trustworthy source in general because he, like every other person on the planet, has biases, prejudices and, yes, significant blind spots. I've read Duty. There's a hell of a lot more to pick at in the book. There are numerous examples of Gates making general statements about someone's character while providing specific examples that seem to directly contradict those general statements. I don't think I've ever met a person who, if they had to write a 500 page autobiography about the most challenging 4 years of their career, would not provide ample opportunity for serious nitpicking. People are messy and complicated and biased and self-serving. But Gates' memoir is a primary source, and when he says someone said something based off his first hand knowledge, that's just about the best evidence we have that it actually happened, barring confirmation by the person who allegedly spoke.

You start off with an ok premise, but your 180 at the end is a wtf. Ok, argue humanity's fallibility, and Graves among them. Kudos. But how does his recollection stand as more than that? Even on a list of unsupported recollections, certainly someone without a vested interest would be favoured, and that bumps him from 2nd to behind all those countless someones on our made up list of accreditation.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

The fact that, as you already admit, he has biases, prejudices and significant blind spots is exactly why you shouldn't trust what he claims to have been the character of these events. That's the very definition of why you don't trust some sources.

When alot of the content reads like a guy with an axe to grind against certain people, you should be careful about believing what he says about those certain people.

Everyone has biases, prejudices and significant blind spots. That's a simple fact of historiography. Christopher Columbus had tremendous biases and enormous blind spots. But if you're writing a book about the early interactions between Europeans and North American natives, Columbus' diaries are essential first-hand accounts. That doesn't mean you take everything they say at face value, but if you tried to write a meaningful history of the subject without it, the worked would be flawed in the inception.

I'm not looking at Gates to tell me "the character" of these events. I'm looking at Gates for his representations as to certain facts that happened. His characterizations are interesting, but somewhat besides the point.

Although it's also worth stating that if you actually read Gates' memoir, he does not seem to have much of an axe to grind with Obama. Although he is somewhat critical of certain decisions Obama made (almost all of which were immediately picked up by the press when the book was published), he also heaps a significant amount of praise on him as well, and has very nice things to say about him both personally and professionally, along with his criticisms. I found it to be remarkably, if not perfectly, even-handed. There are a few people who Gates obviously did NOT like (Dick Cheney being one, Joe Biden being another) and it's more than fair to read his criticisms of the two with some skepticism.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

You start off with an ok premise, but your 180 at the end is a wtf. Ok, argue humanity's fallibility, and Graves among them. Kudos. But how does his recollection stand as more than that? Even on a list of unsupported recollections, certainly someone without a vested interest would be favoured, and that bumps him from 2nd to behind all those countless someones on our made up list of accreditation.

I really don't understand anything after your first sentence.

[mormont]

[mod] If you have a substantive post to make on the topic, that's great. If you're posting just to make personal remarks about other participants, don't. [/mod]

[Arakan]

Meanwhile in Syria...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/10/isis-syria-iraq-barack-obama-airstrikes

Very good article and analysis about that almost forgotten front of the "Islamic State"...

Maybe it's time for the West to completely re-evaluate its strategic approach to the region in general. We should learn s big lesson from the anarchic chaos which can now be seen in Lybia

[WinterKing]

According to The Telegraph, 70% of the Yazidis in the mountain are already dead.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/11024037/Iraq-crisis-It-is-death-valley.-Up-to-70-per-cent-of-them-are-dead.html

And some of the Yazidis girls captured have been sold as slaves or given to the troops as "reward"

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08/08/hundreds-of-yazidi-women-have-been-taken-captive-by-islamic-state-militants_n_5662830.html

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

QALC,

Parliament is in the process of reorganization. Maliki is acting lawlessly, and this hand shake agreement is not binding. Grasp at the straws all you want. Fucking neo-cons.

Nestor is many things. An unthinking advocate for "Neo-Conservatism" is not among them.

[Arakan]

According to The Telegraph, 70% of the Yazidis in the mountain are already dead.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/11024037/Iraq-crisis-It-is-death-valley.-Up-to-70-per-cent-of-them-are-dead.html

And some of the Yazidis girls captured have been sold as slaves or given to the troops as "reward"

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08/08/hundreds-of-yazidi-women-have-been-taken-captive-by-islamic-state-militants_n_5662830.html

It's a fucking disgrace.

I hope that the West FINALLY wakes up and sees the problem for what it really is. Enough of that submissive, apologetic bullshit I read and hear every day here in my country.

It's time to fight the root causes. I have enough of the "they [radical islamists and terrorists] are just an isolated very small minority" mantra. Seemingly their "isolated" status doesnt stop them from getting recruits, money, support for decades now, ISIS is just the logical culmination of that development.

At least in Europe and the US we must make evth possible to stop radical islam from getting further support. People wanna live in the West? Better accept the core values of your host country. No more excuses.

Only few days ago, some Salafists spread (again) their propaganda BS (decadent immoral Western Lifestyle) in the city centre of Augsburg, in the heartland of Bavaria. Asked me if I want to find "the truth" and leave my "meaningless life" behind.

What we wittness now LIFE in Iraq is just the effect, not the cause. Time to fight the cause.

[Fez]

According to The Telegraph, 70% of the Yazidis in the mountain are already dead.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/11024037/Iraq-crisis-It-is-death-valley.-Up-to-70-per-cent-of-them-are-dead.html

It was being reported yesterday that over 10,000 of the Yazidis had fled the mountain through a corridor opened by the Kurds, with more expected to leave soon. And there were an estimated 10-40,000 up there total, so possibly nearly all of them had left.

Someone is either lying or misinformed, and I don't know who. Hopefully its The Telegraph.

[Arakan]

It was being reported yesterday that over 10,000 of the Yazidis had fled the mountain through a corridor opened by the Kurds, with more expected to leave soon. And there were an estimated 10-40,000 up there total, so possibly nearly all of them had left.

Someone is either lying or misinformed, and I don't know who. Hopefully its The Telegraph.

Fez,

I dont believe that 70% figure but does it really matter? Or is it not completely irrelevant?

Hundreds have already died and more will die, first it is always the weakest (children, old, women). And ISIS threatened to kill all those who do not renounce their heretic ways.

Yes, no need for hyperbole but that the Yazidi are facing the risk of genocide is out of question.

[Fez]

Fez,

I dont believe that 70% figure but does it really matter? Or is it not completely irrelevant?

Hundreds have already died and more will die, first it is always the weakest (children, old, women). And ISIS threatened to kill all those who do not renounce their heretic ways.

Yes, no need for hyperbole but that the Yazidi are facing the risk of genocide is out of question.

I'm not making light of the situation. Its a despicable tragedy, and ISIS are human pond scum. However, I always object to sensationalizing news, particularly when the truth is so bad already.

[Ranger275]

The IA, outside of the Kurds, consist of jundis and generals. Very little (none) non-commissioned officer influence. That's one of many problems.

They do have some fantastic units, guys that can take down a house as fast as we can, but there aren't many of 'em. The average "grunt" can man a checkpoint, pick his nose, and accept bribes. That is why they drop kit and flee.

We should be sending our hardware to the kurds instead, and we should have been doing this the whole time. We used to talk about how quickly that place would fall apart all the time, and it's sad to see our skepticism met with reality.

[Ranger275]

Nestor is pretty spot-on about the SOFA, too.

[mormont]

It's a fucking disgrace.

I hope that the West FINALLY wakes up and sees the problem for what it really is. Enough of that submissive, apologetic bullshit I read and hear every day here in my country.

It's time to fight the root causes. I have enough of the "they [radical islamists and terrorists] are just an isolated very small minority" mantra. Seemingly their "isolated" status doesnt stop them from getting recruits, money, support for decades now, ISIS is just the logical culmination of that development.

At least in Europe and the US we must make evth possible to stop radical islam from getting further support. People wanna live in the West? Better accept the core values of your host country. No more excuses.

Only few days ago, some Salafists spread (again) their propaganda BS (decadent immoral Western Lifestyle) in the city centre of Augsburg, in the heartland of Bavaria. Asked me if I want to find "the truth" and leave my "meaningless life" behind.

What we wittness now LIFE in Iraq is just the effect, not the cause. Time to fight the cause.

It's precisely this sort of approach that will ensure a fertile recruiting ground for ISIS and their like. Young Muslim men don't become radicalised because Western governments are too nice to them. They become radicalised because they feel unwanted, because they feel forced to choose between their religion and their home country, because of silly bombastic nonsense like this. Your approach would be cheered by the commanders of ISIS. They want exactly this reaction.