Heresy 127

[Eira Seren]

He's Hodoryen.

[Ygritte]

Or was someone saying 'hold the door' to keep something down in the Winterfell crypts?

Or something coming up from the crypts and wanting him to hold the door while it escaped?

[Urrax2]

If it's the same [crackpot] theory I'm thinking of, Hodor is the real Aegon and "Hodor" is actually "Hold the door", spoken by Elia Martell right before the Mountain smashed through the door and dashed Aegon's head against the wall, making him simple.

That's crackpot all right.

[Black Crow]

I suppose cracking a pot on his head might have done it...

[Eira Seren]

Or something coming up from the crypts and wanting him to hold the door while it escaped?

Something cold, perhaps. The cold is always creeping up from the crypts.

From AGOT, ch 4, Ned and Robert go down in the crypt:

He could feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth.

[Black Crow]

What makes it difficult is that we don't know how well developed his speech was when he did meet whatever it was; Hodor may not be a real word at all. What I would say though is that he's perfectly comfortable saying it. There's no hint that it gives him the screaming ab dabs.

And with that, to bed. Good night all.

[Mace Cooterian]

Gotta love the idea that the nights king was named Hodor Stark!

Since we are still on the subject of Hodor......I think the thought of the Nights King being Hodor Stark would be a real hoot!!!

In that this is the only word Hodor can say it is likely associated, not to his true name, but related to whatever happened in the Crypts. Perhaps he saw the Ghost of the Night's King floating around in the lower crypts.

By the way.....Hodor is high Valyrian for....."F**K, I'm getting the hell out of here".

[JasonJD]

So, not being familiar with the theory itself, does it try to explain why Hodor is so freakishly big? Since genetics are definitely a thing in Westeros, that seems like a pretty big hole unless they have some insane reasoning to account for it.

Actually, head trauma could have damaged his pituitary gland, causing abnormal growth.

[Eira Seren]

Since we are still on the subject of Hodor......I think the thought of the Nights King being Hodor Stark would be a real hoot!!!

In that this is the only word Hodor can say it is likely associated, not to his true name, but related to whatever happened in the Crypts. Perhaps he saw the Ghost of the Night's King floating around in the lower crypts.

By the way.....Hodor is high Valyrian for....."F**K, I'm getting the hell out of here".

:lol:

[Black Crow]

Yes, he is Odin but I don't think he's the Almighty father of the society he lives in with the Singers, he's not the one in charge. The Singers live for long periods of time, and the only thing keeping Bloodraven alive is his connection to the Weirwood, and now Bran has arrived, his time is almost up.

It's almost like Jon, Ben and the Wall, with the Jon and Bran taking over the jobs of Bloodraven and Ben.

Very much so and that also reinforces the thought that like Craster both of them are thereby bearing a heavy curse.

There's nothing cuddly about any of this and the happy assumption out there in the wider board that Jon is on the Wall to defeat the Others with the aid of Bran and the children of the forest really doesn't look viable once you dip below the surface.

[Eira Seren]

Very much so and that also reinforces the thought that like Craster both of them are thereby bearing a heavy curse.

There's nothing cuddly about any of this and the happy assumption out there in the wider board that Jon is on the Wall to defeat the Others with the aid of Bran and the children of the forest really doesn't look viable once you dip below the surface.

This is true, but what if it isn't a curse at all? What if the association has only been made to seem that way for the purposes of the story so far. I admit, the Singers and the Others really don't appear cuddly, but does it necessarily follow that they're evil?

ETA: when I looked at the quote earlier and connected it to the crypts, I should have done a little more work:

They went down to the crypt together, Ned and this king he scarcely recognized. The winding stone steps were narrow. Ned went first with the lantern. "I was starting to think we would never reach Winterfell," Robert complained as they descended. "In the south, the way they talk about my Seven Kingdoms, a man forgets that your part is as big as the other six combined."

"I trust you enjoyed the journey, Your Grace?"

Robert snorted. "Bogs and forests and fields, and scarcely a decent inn north of the Neck. I've never seen such a vast emptiness. Where are all your people?"

"Likely they were too shy to come out," Ned jested. He could feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth. "Kings are a rare sight in the north."

Robert snorted. "More likely they were hiding under the snow. (AGOT, 4, Ned)

So. . . are "Ned's people" coming out from beneath the snow and beneath the ground, in the cold from the crypts??

[Black Crow]

Well GRRM has so often said he doesn't do evil. Obviously there are people in the books who do evil things, but that aint the same thing.

When I used the word "cuddly" that was what I was referring to in the sense that the expectation Jon, Bran and the children of the forest will combine to defeat the big bad beyond the Wall, because the said big bad is going to turn out not be as advertised; its a lot more complicated, with different allegiances and old alliances at work. A resolution may be achieved by breaking the curse but that's not necessarily going to be in a big climactic battle and I would suggest that its going to be a lot more complicated - and bittersweet.

[Eira Seren]

Well GRRM has so often said he doesn't do evil. Obviously there are people in the books who do evil things, but that aint the same thing.

When I used the word "cuddly" that was what I was referring to in the sense that the expectation Jon, Bran and the children of the forest will combine to defeat the big bad beyond the Wall, because the said big bad is going to turn out not be as advertised; its a lot more complicated, with different allegiances and old alliances at work. A resolution may be achieved by breaking the curse but that's not necessarily going to be in a big climactic battle and I would suggest that its going to be a lot more complicated - and bittersweet.

I prefer your take on it, I can see where a nice 'cuddly' story by the fire or at the feast might be preferred by those who survive or come along after. Also, this idea that it's not going to be a big battle is probably accurate! Currently, the battles seem to be getting left for Stannis and Dany. In fact, I've almost entirely drifted away from the idea that Bran or Jon will ever see a dragon, let alone ride one.

We could make t-shirts, they would say "The Big Bad. Not as Advertised."

ETA: my brain fizzled out earlier so I took a break from writing and started trying to put together the beginnings of a 'works consulted' for my neverending essay. I have over 100 pages of posts that I've saved in Word files from discussions on Heresy, all of which have in some way made me the heretic I am today. It's going to take some organizing :)

[alienarea]

Well GRRM has so often said he doesn't do evil.

SNIP

His release schedule begs to differ.

[The Free Folk]

This is true, but what if it isn't a curse at all? What if the association has only been made to seem that way for the purposes of the story so far. I admit, the Singers and the Others really don't appear cuddly, but does it necessarily follow that they're evil?

ETA: when I looked at the quote earlier and connected it to the crypts, I should have done a little more work:

They went down to the crypt together, Ned and this king he scarcely recognized. The winding stone steps were narrow. Ned went first with the lantern. "I was starting to think we would never reach Winterfell," Robert complained as they descended. "In the south, the way they talk about my Seven Kingdoms, a man forgets that your part is as big as the other six combined."

"I trust you enjoyed the journey, Your Grace?"

Robert snorted. "Bogs and forests and fields, and scarcely a decent inn north of the Neck. I've never seen such a vast emptiness. Where are all your people?"

"Likely they were too shy to come out," Ned jested. He could feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth. "Kings are a rare sight in the north."

Robert snorted. "More likely they were hiding under the snow. (AGOT, 4, Ned)

So. . . are "Ned's people" coming out from beneath the snow and beneath the ground, in the cold from the crypts??

I think you might be on to something here; the placement of that thought about the crypts does seem to be oddly placed in a seemingly unrelated discussion. I wonder if there are similar instances of this where POV characters think about the crypts in a sort of fleeting, passing thought. The POV narration certainly makes this seem totally natural as that is normally how humans think - jumping haphazardly from thought to thought - and it is possible that this is a way for GRRM to sneak hints by the reader. Has anyone ever compiled a list of quotes about the crypts? It would be neat to re-read those within the context in which they are presented, and see if we can take Eira's idea a bit further?

[TheButcherCrow]

Well GRRM has so often said he doesn't do evil.

His release schedule begs to differ.

:lmao:

[lokisnow]

Craster's blood is black because he is blood of the dragon. He's even got the white hair in the book.

Also Craster's hands twitch whenever he sees Slayer because Sam killed his son. Sam stupidly thinks it's because Craster knows Sam and Gilly spoke but he is very wrong about that.

[The Free Folk]

Another random idea that might be something, might not:

A few heresies ago there was some talk about Val maybe being a icy version of Mel and the White Shadows being the Ice parallel of Mel's shadowbabies. Continuing on with this line of thought and making the assumption that the Ice and Fire ends of the spectrum are more or less symettrical, I wonder if we have two factions or two versions of each side. On the fire side you have 1) the Red priests, Mel, shadowbabies and 2) the Targaryen's and their dragons, which would mean the Ice parallels would 1) Val, some 'white priests', and the White Shadows and 2) the Starks and their direwovles.

So far this doesn't seem too out there if you accept the theory there exists some sort of Ice version of Mel, however where it might be a rewarding line of thought is thinking of the Ice/Fire connection as a quadrant rather than a duality. So we have the split between Ice and Fire as types of magic, but we also have another split between the 'Shadows' and the 'Pets' (dragons/direwolves). Trying to figure out what the essence of what this second split is, i.e. what the connections, differences, relationship between the Red priests, shadowbabies, and the dragonlords might offer some parellels to the mysterious connection, relationship, division on the Ice side: between the Starks and their wolves on the one hand and the White Shadows on the other.

[TheButcherCrow]

Here's some food for thought. Given their predilections toward fire, isn't it strange that there is zero evidence of a Targ link to Rh'llorism ? The Valyrians of the freehold worshiped ancient (possibly dragon) gods. We even know three of their names, Balerion, Vhagar and Meraxes. Were these the only three ? It would have a certain symmetry, what with the dragon having three heads. Also, in Volantis the blood of old Valyria rules in a Triarchy, interesting custom. Three is a magic number apparently.

[Black Crow]

Here's some food for thought. Given their predilections toward fire, isn't it strange that there is zero evidence of a Targ link to Rh'llorism ? The Valyrians of the freehold worshiped ancient (possibly dragon) gods. We even know three of their names, Balerion, Vhagar and Meraxes. Were these the only three ? It would have a certain symmetry, what with the dragon having three heads. Also, in Volantis the blood of old Valyria rules in a Triarchy, interesting custom. Three is a magic number apparently.

And underlining that point is the hostility towards the Valyrians displayed by Master Benero.

Did the Valyrians steal their dragons back in the day?

After all as we've seen there's a lot more evidence for their originating out East, rather than as "fyre wyrms" in Valyria