another Malaysian Airlines flight story...

[DemiNymph]

Or because they can't do much given the political realities of the situation. No matter how much any western world leader may want to tell Putin to fuck the hell off, they can't. Cause the situation doesn't allow it.

And now this incident provides a great opportunity, don't you think.

[DemiNymph]

I was curious as to what the Dutch response was going to be. We've heard from everyone and his brother about who or what is responsible, yet it's been strangely quiet when it comes to the people who were so directly impacted by this tragedy.

A very patient people. My heart goes out to them.

We need more translations. I'm sure the Dutch have a lot to say, but the western media has left them alone. Perhaps it's more newsworthy to cover the crash site currently. The previous incident of MH370, the PRC victims' families have a lot of coverage (I gather in part encouraged by themselves too), and also that's the only newsworthy thing to cover in the absence of a crash site. I saw Calibander post something before the forum reset wiped it off.

Totally, it's not like it Kerry's comments have been front page NY Times material or anything.

They're repeating the same thing and toeing the same scripted line in accordance to the country's policy. He even has to explain so painstakingly about his slip up, his symphathy about civillians killed so that it wouldn't be taken as expressing negativity about the country's ally actions. Perfect example of using the media to push a country's propaganda. Exactly my point. It's not about right or wrong or truth or justice. It's about what they want the masses to believe to suit their purposes and agenda. Which is what's going to happen to this MH17 incident.

[Artas]

I was curious as to what the Dutch response was going to be. We've heard from everyone and his brother about who or what is responsible, yet it's been strangely quiet when it comes to the people who were so directly impacted by this tragedy.

I cited the column because I think it aptly describes the attitude of many European countries, not just the Netherlands. Financial and energy-related considerations constantly prompt us to look away and act as if Putin is a respectable leader, which he isn't. In the end, this attitude serves Russia more than it serves us.

[Mile]

No comments on the Russian press conference yesterday?

http://rt.com/news/174496-malaysia-crash-russia-questions/

China's view on this subject is rather interesting. It doesn't look like they're buying the Western propaganda.

Thanks for the link. I'm interested to see how other BRICS nations react.

Sure. But that's in part because they care.

Like, they are likely gonna try and hammer Russia over this in order to stop it from happening again. Because they care that a bunch of people just died.

Or because they can't do much given the political realities of the situation. No matter how much any western world leader may want to tell Putin to fuck the hell off, they can't. Cause the situation doesn't allow it. You wanna bring up Gaza? Sure, that's the perfect example. Anyone with any familiarity with the situation knows that the Obama admin pretty much hates the current Israeli government and disapproves of the current blowing-up campaign against the Palestinians. But the political realities of support for Israel in US politics severely limit their ability to form an official negative response to the situation.

You aren't being not-naive, you are being stupidly cynical. Politicians are just people. And like people, they care about other people. Cynicism is not wisdom, no matter how many world-weary and jaded 17 year olds claim otherwise.

Pretending that the US doesn't have a horse in this race is also not wisdom. Obama (and Putin) may have emotions about this as we all do, but this is not what is driving their policies or statements. The US outrage is not informed by the politicians' feelings. They are milking this incident for all it's worth.

We will see today if EU succumbs to this pressure.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Mile,

How many journalists have resigned from RT over its coverage of the Ukraine since the invasion of Crimea?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/07/18/malaysia-airlines-russian-reporter-quits/12847251/

http://www.thenewsminute.com/worlds/195

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4907140

[Mile]

Mile,

How many journalists have resigned from RT over its coverage of the Ukraine since the invasion of Crimea?

Scot,

what is the purpose of your question?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Mile,

Why don't you answer it and then ponder why these journalists are resigning from RT.

[Mile]

Mile,

Why don't you answer it and then ponder why these journalists are resigning from RT.

Scot,

if you want to discuss a topic, discuss. I have to interest in discussing RT, but Putin's chosen move - yesterday's conference. Unless you are denying it happened?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Mile,

Why will you not answer the question. To elaborate, if journalists are resigning from RT over concerns about biased coverage of Ukraine are RT reports reliable information?

This topic folds into the broader discussion.

[Mile]

Mile,

Why will you not answer the question. To elaborate, if journalists are resigning from RT over concerns about biased coverage of Ukraine are RT reports reliable information?

This topic folds into the broader discussion.

Scot,

RT is a valuable resource on what Russia wants the public opinion to be. Here is another link for the topic: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/21/russia-hits-back-claims-support-rebel-suspects-mh17

Does this source satisfy you?

ETA: If you want to discuss RT, you can create a new topic, or use the Ukraine one?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Mile,

So, you admit RT is spewing propaganda?

[Mile]

Mile,

So, you admit RT is spewing propaganda?

I don't have to "admit" anything, since I was never saying otherwise. RT is propaganda, but is valuable.

[The Iceman of the North]

If SAM's are as complex to operate as seems to be the case, a number of these people must have 'cocked up.'

Nah, the system might take a lot of people to operate, but identifying targets, and deciding to open fire is limited to a couple of people. The guy loading the missile, or whatever, didn't 'cock up' even if he shares the blame.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Mile,

Fair enough. I thought you were offering RT as a legitimate source of information.

[Fez]

I cited the column because I think it aptly describes the attitude of many European countries, not just the Netherlands. Financial and energy-related considerations constantly prompt us to look away and act as if Putin is a respectable leader, which he isn't. In the end, this attitude serves Russia more than it serves us.

I think most, if not all, of the European countries want to do something about Russia; its just that each one doesn't want to be disproportionately affected by the process as well. So, for instance, England doesn't want to freeze financial assets, France doesn't want to stop weapon sales, and Germany doesn't want to stop buying gas; but each one is pretty much on board with doing the other two. Eventually, instead of just doing one of those things, the EU will do some combination of all three, and other things, that spreads the pain equally instead. But it takes time to figure out what that combination is.

[broken one]

We pretend we think Putin is not pulling the so called separatists' strings and we want him to give more empty promises, so that we can pretend nothing happened and we do not have to do anything. Putin knows that, and he gives the empty promises and keeps doing his thing. This is perfect, everybody wins. Oh, xept for the Ukraine of course.

[Artas]

This is perfect, everybody wins.

Except the people who were in that plane, and their loved ones.

[Suttree]

More today on how Putin is trying to address things.

“Putin is trying to find his own variation of a twin-track decision, because he does not have a clear exit,” said Gleb O. Pavlovsky, a political consultant who once worked for the Kremlin.

The pressure continued to expand. President Obama delivered yet another personal rebuke to Mr. Putin from the White House lawn over the intransigence of the rebels toward the international investigation, hours before they agreed to more cooperation. In addition, an initial expert analysis of photographs of the airplane’s fuselage found that the damage was consistent with being struck by the type of missile that U.S. officials said was used.

On Tuesday, Russia faces the threat of far more serious sanctions from its main trading partners in Western Europe.

“Of course this is a strong blow to him, a strong blow to his strategy,” said Mr. Pavlovsky, referring to the fact that Russian separatists fighting in eastern Ukraine have been discredited globally, due to suspicions that they shot down the aircraft and their handling of the crash site.

“It touches him too,” Mr. Pavlovsky said, “He wants to get out, but to get out without having lost.”

Oh and when you hear some posters mention "propaganda" in relation to governments on both sides, somehow given the below:

Russia is the world’s scapegoat.”

That is the theme of much of coverage on state-run television, which has also aired all manner of theories lifted from the dark corners of the web.

One such theory holds that whoever shot down the plane was actually gunning for Mr. Putin, whose plane was over Eastern Europe at the time, returning from Latin America, for example.

Another argues that the bodies were actually from the Malaysia Airlines jet that disappeared four months ago — dumped only now to make the separatists look bad...

The Kremlin actually spent months using state-run television to build the case that the Kiev government are a pack of “fascists,” bent on killing the ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine. It has softened that message somewhat in recent weeks, but not abandoned it.

Hence two senior Russian military commanders, sitting in a vast briefing room and dwarfed by the giant electronic screens overhead, used various satellite images and charts to raise a series of rhetorical questions that suggested that Ukraine and the United States deliberately plotted to shoot down the passenger jet. The unusual bilingual briefing was broadcast live on state-run television.

I don't think any objective observer can hold that view. Were talking vastly different playing fields here.

[Isabel]

The dutch minister Timmermans has made an impressive speech in english about the disaster:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcGCBHNcKyI

[The Notorious]

I'm unclear on what Mile & Deminymph is arguing for or what responses they expect from other countries about this situation. All that meandering cynicism is confusing and inane to the point of boredom.

Are they arguing that war should be declared on the Russians/Ukraine separatists by the Dutch/America/EU?