Pod The Impaler Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Would his plane has had any countermeasures against radar or heat guided missiles? Military planes have such measures, usually not civilian ones. Probably Modi's plane would, but not the airliner. Even with it, those measures are not 100% effective; they only reduce the chances of being successfully targeted & hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solmyr Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I am unwilling to believe that even the parties of the Ukrainian conflict would shoot down a commercial airplane on purpose. Even the wildest conspiracy theorists would have a hard time fitting this piece into a coherent puzzle. Rather, it's probably a war-blunder or epic proportions. Whoever did it should be found and put on trial for it. But I don't think that either the Ukranian or the Russian government are directly culpable in the mess - both will try to blame the other, but neither is stupid or desperate enough to resort to shooting down a plane on purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkhangel Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I haven't heard a single credible source claiming that it was deliberately targeted. The upshot seems to pretty clearly be that the people who fired the missile were amateur soldiers with no idea what they were doing, and hit a civilian target under the impression that they were targeting a military plane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solmyr Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I haven't heard a single credible source claiming that it was deliberately targeted. The upshot seems to pretty clearly be that the people who fired the missile were amateur soldiers with no idea what they were doing, and hit a civilian target under the impression that they were targeting a military plane. But then again, if the plane was indeed deliberately targeted, the ones behind the plot would have been prepared to pass it off as as either a separatist mistake or a deliberate strike of the other side. This is the only sensible reason to deliberately target it in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horza Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 That's a lot of risk, given existing Russian intelligence capabilities and the extent to which they've compromised the Ukrainian intelligence apparatus. Which is the problem with the whole 'false flag' reasoning structure: the risks entailed in attacking friendly forces/civillians and blaming it on the other guy are potentially fatal and coverups are exceedingly difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 This idea of blaming Malaysian Airlines to any degree for this is a little baffling to me. I assign 100% of the blame to the people who fired the missile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Still a lot of confliciting stories out there. From the BBC. Ukraine's Prosecutor General Vitaliy Yarema cast doubt on this, telling local media on Friday: "The military told the president after the passenger plane had been shot down that the terrorists did not possess our Buk missile systems." Perhaps this is to cast blame on Russia for supplying the rebels with the system. And man the Ukrainians really need to work on their propaganda. Hire a new writer or something. "The Russians are done for. This is an international crime which must be investigated by the international tribunal in The Hague," Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk said. Amateur hour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horza Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 This idea of blaming Malaysian Airlines to any degree for this is a little baffling to me. I assign 100% of the blame to the people who fired the missile. In one sense, sure - they weren't the only carrier flying that route, that it was them and not Air France or KLM was simply a case of wrong place, wrong time. But other carriers stopped using the path months ago, and separatist anti-aircraft capabilities have improved in the last couple of months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 This idea of blaming Malaysian Airlines to any degree for this is a little baffling to me. I assign 100% of the blame to the people who fired the missile. What about the people who supplied the missile to those who fired it? What "%" of blame do they get? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 What about the people who supplied the missile to those who fired it? What "%" of blame do they get? Ah, okay, fair enough, my post was overly simple. Plenty of blame for their suppliers. I just don't think Malaysia Airlines deserves the blame for their plane getting shot down. The amount of blame that rests (I have to believe) on Putin, I'll post about in the Ukraine thread, as it seems more appropriate to post there on Russian-Ukrainian hostilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Ah, okay, fair enough, my post was overly simple. Plenty of blame for their suppliers. I just don't think Malaysia Airlines deserves the blame for their plane getting shot down. The amount of blame that rests (I have to believe) on Putin, I'll post about in the Ukraine thread, as it seems more appropriate to post there on Russian-Ukrainian hostilities. Well i think i agree with you, however it boils down to WHY Malaysia Air didn't reroute their flights. I don't know anything on the subject but the cynic in my screams that fuel costs might have been a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlefingers In The Air Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Well, would saving on fuel costs have been the worst reason to go through that area? I mean, in retrospect, it was a tragic idea. But you don't ever think your civilian aircraft is going to be blown out of the air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Well i think i agree with you, however it boils down to WHY Malaysia Air didn't reroute their flights. I don't know anything on the subject but the cynic in my screams that fuel costs might have been a reason. Almost no one was rerouting their flights. People were flying over this route all the time over the fast few days. On top of that, the flight in question is close enough to the line that they practically can't reroute it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormond Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Almost no one was rerouting their flights. People were flying over this route all the time over the fast few days. On top of that, the flight in question is close enough to the line that they practically can't reroute it anyway. Can you further explain the second sentence there? What "line" are you talking about? It seems that since this incident many other airlines have said they will no longer fly that route, so I don't see why Malaysian Airlines "practically can't" reroute their flights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlefingers In The Air Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I thought Shryke meant "practically couldn't" but maybe I'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Russia. And to be fair, they were given the ok to fly that route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Notorious Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Apparently other airlines are not flying over that area. .Untrue. Plenty of other airlines were still flying over the region prior to yesterday, including a plane carrying the prime minister of India. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 There is a chart in this morning's paper copy of the Globe and Mail that shows the last three routes the MH flight has been taking., which I cannot find on the newspaper's website. Perhaps someone else can find it elsewhere. It very clearly shows that a few weeks ago the flight stayed well away from the area where the flight was shot down, and then the route moved to a corridor a little further north, basically halfway between the route a few flights ago and the route taken yesterday. It's puzzling that the route was shifted further and further north, closer to the border between Russia and the Ukraine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calibandar Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 189 of my countrymen killed. Shot down from the sky while reading or looking at their Ipad. It's unbelievable. Whole families killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlefingers In The Air Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 According to Obama, at least one American, Quinn Lucas Schansman, was killed. the internet, being the internet, has already taken to proving he's real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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