Why do people think Jon is Azor Ahai?

[LordStoneheart]

I don't know about PV, but many people I have come across actually fit his description. They like her because she is a woman, and I have also heard the other argument that not liking Dany immediately suggests that you are a misogynist. Just as not voting for/liking Obama means you are a racist. While both versions are obviously twisted, I am sure there are plenty of fans who dislike her for being a woman and others who like her only because she is a woman.

Having said that, thanks for obliterating my retina with that enlarged post. :cheers:

But what is wrong with liking someone because of their gender? I see nothing wrong with liking women characters, nor men. But there are no characters I like solely because of their gender. If that's how people are basing their character preferences that's really weak considering everyone but Sweets is probably a man or a woman.

Daenerys is more of a mary sue than Jon and anyone who think otherwise does not know what a Mary-sue is.

It's obvious that you do not know what a mary-sue is. The only definition I'm getting from you is "I don't like Dany, therefore, she is a mary-sue and my opinion is right."

[jon rhaegar stark]

Ehh I have to agree with Sj that her chapters are terribly boring. I have tried re-reading them..... I also don't like her character, which has nothing to do with it. I dislike Cersei as well, but her chapters were fun.

on my first read i found it has boring too same like some of bran and arya chapters ...but the fact that made me really interesting about her arc in reread is when i have seen all the arguments and assumptions on this board ...i found how some of the assumptions are misleading the people and everything

as to your disliking what can i say i can only hope you will come to love her later ...but i love jon ,her and arya and tyrion

[JonSnow4President]

What is double standart? Is it like an easel that holds two paintings?

You cannot loop all Dany fans together. I've never given an indication that I love Dany solely because she was a woman. That's just your narrow view of Dany fans. And may I ask what's wrong with liking someone because they are women? Is there something wrong with women?

There you go cherry-picking again. Look up the word hyperbole. It was an exaggeration to make the point that she is a divisive character.

I don't know where you have the idea that Dany is weak because she doesn't often engage in combat. She would not lose to Hot Pie in a fight. If you think Daenerys is weak you've misread the text. It takes a fair amount of strength to slice a human face off with nothing but a whip. But physical strength is not the end all, be all of positive character traits. Frankly, writing a character as physically tough is a lazier way to give them depth and respect.

Well, I think it's wrong to like a woman JUST because she is a woman (or inversely, you wouldn't like a man doing the same things). That's just sexism. And I don't doubt there are Dany fans/haters that love/hate her because she is a woman, I just think they are a tiny fraction of the overall population. Personally, I don't like Dany because of her actions. Just like I like Brienne because of her actions.

As far as whipping a man's face off, when did that happen?

[IceFire125]

In ASOIAF there are a lot of heroes. However, I'm of the opinion that GRRM has selected Jon to be that ultimate hero, the King Arthur of the story, and he has selected Bloodraven & Branraven, the Merlin to aid Jon in his journey, influencing huge and important events in the story. King Arthur wielded Excalibur, so will Jon, who will physically wield the sword Lightbringer.

Jon is the Son(g) of Ice and Fire, the medium, the balance of Ice and Fire. The old gods chose Jon when they gave him Ghost as a mark and symbol of the chosen one, leading to Ghost days in the world numbered and soon to die the moment he fulfilled his purpose in helping Jon. That moment was when Jon entered Ghost, to apply the second life worthy of a King (as was the thought of Varamyr when he saw Ghost).

“I thought the greenseers were the wizards of the children,” Bran said. “The singers, I mean.”

“In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood...By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance...”

“An albino,” Theon Greyjoy said with wry amusement. “This one will die even faster than the others.”

Jon Snow gave his father’s ward a long, chilling look. “I think not, Greyjoy,” he said. “This one belongs to me.”

The direwolf had no answer, but he licked Jon’s face with a tongue like a wet rasp, and his eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns.

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre’s. He had a weirwood’s eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one.

[El Guapo]

Well, I think it's wrong to like a woman JUST because she is a woman (or inversely, you wouldn't like a man doing the same things). That's just sexism. And I don't doubt there are Dany fans/haters that love/hate her because she is a woman, I just think they are a tiny fraction of the overall population. Personally, I don't like Dany because of her actions. Just like I like Brienne because of her actions.

As far as whipping a man's face off, when did that happen?

Kraznys

[JonisHenryTudor]

on my first read i found it has boring too same like some of bran and arya chapters ...but the fact that made me really interesting about her arc in reread is when i have seen all the arguments and assumptions on this board ...i found how some of the assumptions are misleading the people and everything

as to your disliking what can i say i can only hope you will come to love her later ...but i love jon ,her and arya and tyrion

Never! :fencing:

I just don't find the free cities that interesting. My guess is that her chapters will become much more enjoyable, at least for me, once she comes to Westeros. I even lost my interest with Tyrion once he crossed over, and Ayra as well. Brienne is just dreadfully boring. Dany is boring because I could care less about the Dothraki or anyone else in Essos. The whole arc is just lackluster to me. I may be the only one with that opinion, though.

[jon rhaegar stark]

The only chapters of hers that I find boring are ADWD. I've reread some of them, but they grate on me. I enjoyed her story a lot in the first 3 books.

I don't let the opinions of people on the forums color my judgments. I read the books well before I came in here, so I already knew what I thought :)

i will agree that her chapters are at first boring like i said in my answer to JonisHenryTudor i liked those chapters on my reread and hopefully you do too..

[LordStoneheart]

As far as whipping a man's face off, when did that happen?

Kraznys. A Storm of Swords, chapter 27.

It is time to cross the Trident, Dany thought, as she wheeled and rode her silver back. Her bloodriders moved in close around her. "You are in difficulty," she observed.

"He will not come," Kraznys said.

"There is a reason. A dragon is no slave." And Dany swept the lash down as hard as she could across the slaver's face. Kraznys screamed and staggered back, the blood running red down his cheeks into his perfumed beard. The harpy's fingers had torn his features half to pieces with one slash, but she did not pause to contemplate the ruin.

[BearQueen87]

In ASOIAF there are a lot of heroes. However, I'm of the opinion that GRRM has selected Jon to be that ultimate hero, the King Arthur of the story, and he has selected Bloodraven & Branraven, the Merlin to aid Jon in his journey, influencing huge and important events in the story. King Arthur wielded Excalibur, so will Jon, who will physically wield the sword Lightbringer.

Jon is the Son(g) of Ice and Fire, the medium, the balance of Ice and Fire. The old gods chose Jon when they gave him Ghost as a mark and symbol of the chosen one, leading to Ghost days in the world numbered and soon to die the moment he fulfilled his purpose in helping Jon. That moment was when Jon entered Ghost, to apply the second life worthy of a King (as was the thought of Varamyr when he saw Ghost).

“I thought the greenseers were the wizards of the children,” Bran said. “The singers, I mean.”

“In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood...By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance...”

“An albino,” Theon Greyjoy said with wry amusement. “This one will die even faster than the others.”

Jon Snow gave his father’s ward a long, chilling look. “I think not, Greyjoy,” he said. “This one belongs to me.”

The direwolf had no answer, but he licked Jon’s face with a tongue like a wet rasp, and his eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns.

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre’s. He had a weirwood’s eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one.

Well said! I think Jon is the Ultimate Hero of the story as well. Whether that means he's AAR though I don't know. We don't know if AAR is "ultimate hero" because the legend we have about him doesn't make any reference to fighting the Others; that's the Last Hero, and SO FAR we don't know if they are one and the Same (we just think we do)

[sj4iy]

on my first read i found it has boring too same like some of bran and arya chapters ...but the fact that made me really interesting about her arc in reread is when i have seen all the arguments and assumptions on this board ...i found how some of the assumptions are misleading the people and everything

as to your disliking what can i say i can only hope you will come to love her later ...but i love jon ,her and arya and tyrion

I loved her and Tyrion through the first books, and liked Jon, but not as much. I didn't really care for him much at all in the first two books.

That all changed in the last two books...suddenly, Jon became the really interesting one and Dany and Tyrion became quite boring...other than the tease that they might finally meet, which pissed me off in the end.

I don't hate any of them, though...I just currently don't like Dany and Tyrion's storyline while I like Jon's. It changes from book to book, though, as you can see.

[PirateVergo]

What is double standart? Is it like an easel that holds two paintings?

Daenerys is liked because she is a strong independant woman, who want to rule and to conquer.

In modern era strong women are extremely popular in stories that's a fact.

And may I ask what's wrong with liking someone because they are women? Is there something wrong with women?

There is something wrong when you call Jon more of a cliche than Daenerys that's for sure, because in 1 books she did way more than him in 5.

And as I said before Dany is liked because she is a strong woman, if she was a boy she wouldn't be liked that much.

I don't know where you have the idea that Dany is weak because she doesn't often engage in combat. She would not lose to Hot Pie in a fight. If you think Daenerys is weak you've misread the text. It takes a fair amount of strength to slice a human face off with nothing but a whip. But physical strength is not the end all, be all of positive character traits. Frankly, writing a character as physically tough is a lazier way to give them depth and respect.

Azor Ahai Reborn is a warrior, someone special who's born to stop the others once again.

Daenerys cannot lead an army into a battle, she cannot fight by herself all she can do is riding a Dragon who's gonna do all the job for her.

Is that what you expect from Azor Ahai Reborn? Just sit on my dragon and do absolutely nothing by myself.

If your answer is yes then tell me why Dany should be AAR over any other Dragon rider who are probably be more competent than her in many ways.

It's obvious that you do not know what a mary-sue is. The only definition I'm getting from you is "I don't like Dany, therefore, she is a mary-sue and my opinion is right."

Wow the list is long.

Dany is a mary sue because.

1. She's a princess described as the most beautiful woman in the world.

2. She's the mother of 3 dragons, the strongest living things in the ASOIAF world.

3. There is a prophecy about her.

4. She's viewed as a savior and even called "breaker of chains".

5. A rapist,murder savage fell in love with her.

6. Everyone want to marry/sleep with her (Quentyn,Drogo,Euron,Victarion,Jorah list goes on).

7. She is conquering city at the age of 13 and everythinng foreshadows that she'll be way more successful than Daeron or Robb.

Oh yea and if you're right about the AAR/PTWP thing then it's even worse.

[LordStoneheart]

Well, I think it's wrong to like a woman JUST because she is a woman (or inversely, you wouldn't like a man doing the same things). That's just sexism. And I don't doubt there are Dany fans/haters that love/hate her because she is a woman, I just think they are a tiny fraction of the overall population. Personally, I don't like Dany because of her actions. Just like I like Brienne because of her actions.

I love Dany for a number of complicated reasons and not one of them is because of her gender. I've never indicated this was the reason I like her. It's extremely petty and insulting to insinuate me of this (you didn't. Pirate did. With no evidence.)

[jon rhaegar stark]

Never! :fencing:

I just don't find the free cities that interesting. My guess is that her chapters will become much more enjoyable, at least for me, once she comes to Westeros. I even lost my interest with Tyrion once he crossed over, and Ayra as well. Brienne is just dreadfully boring. Dany is boring because I could care less about the Dothraki or anyone else in Essos. The whole arc is just lackluster to me. I may be the only one with that opinion, though.

i too believe Essos is a factor i still hate all those names they have at Slavers bay but iam sure it will be more interesting and enjoyable in the coming books .... i think many dislike Dothraki and Slavers bay but From GRRM's latest interview they will be adding more to the story too so you have to deal with them :laugh:

I loved her and Tyrion through the first books, and liked Jon, but not as much. I didn't really care for him much at all in the first two books.

That all changed in the last two books...suddenly, Jon became the really interesting one and Dany and Tyrion became quite boring...other than the tease that they might finally meet, which pissed me off in the end.

I don't hate any of them, though...I just currently don't like Dany and Tyrion's storyline while I like Jon's. It changes from book to book, though, as you can see.

only think we can be sure of in WoW from what GRRM is that they will be back strong and not be boring as they did in DWD

[JonSnow4President]

Kraznys. A Storm of Swords, chapter 27.

Whipping someone with a multi-tounged whip and "shredding" the skin =/= slicing someone's face off. Had me thinking I missed something amazing there. I can't quote anything, but I get the impression that Dany is NOT physically strong. I highly doubt she'd beat any post puberty male in a sword fight, assuming the same level of training, as at that point, I believe size and strength win out.

[BearQueen87]

Azor Ahai Reborn is a warrior, someone special who's born to stop the others once again.

Daenerys cannot lead an army into a battle, she cannot fight by herself all she can do is riding a Dragon who's gonna do all the job for her.

Is that what you expect from Azor Ahai Reborn? Just sit on my dragon and do absolutely nothing by myself.

If your answer is yes then tell me why Dany should be AAR over any other Dragon rider who are probably be more competent than her in many ways.

We don't know what to expect from AAR because all we have are other people's interpretations and vague references. it goes back to being skeptical about what Mel is telling you.

ETA: nowhere does it say that AAR fights the Others. That's Mel's interpretation. The last person to fight the others was The Last Hero. The readers and Mel conflate the two. We don not know if they are one and the same

[JonisHenryTudor]

But what is wrong with liking someone because of their gender? I see nothing wrong with liking women characters, nor men. But there are no characters I like solely because of their gender. If that's how people are basing their character preferences that's really weak considering everyone but Sweets is probably a man or a woman.

It's obvious that you do not know what a mary-sue is. The only definition I'm getting from you is "I don't like Dany, therefore, she is a mary-sue and my opinion is right."

I agree, it is the solely liking based on gender that sometimes becomes annoying. I personally dont care why people like a character, I just don't appreciate the argument that "you hate Dany because she is a strong woman" or "You don't like Obama because he is black" or "You supported Bush because you are racist" and the list goes on. Those sort of characterizations of people's views leave me dumbfounded and it is as if we have to like a person based on a specific characteristic, otherwise the ridicule will follow. It is absurd.

I dislike Dany because I don't like her attitude among other things. I felt bad for her at first, but after I just dislike her. I should be able to dislike her for whatever reason, and you should be able to like her for whatever reason without being labelled.

[JonisHenryTudor]

i too believe Essos is a factor i still hate all those names they have at Slavers bay but iam sure it will be more interesting and enjoyable in the coming books .... i think many dislike Dothraki and Slavers bay but From GRRM's latest interview they will be adding more to the story too so you have to deal with them :laugh:

only think we can be sure of in WoW from what GRRM said we can be sure they will be back strong and not be boring as they did in DWD

Ah yes I will, coffee will be a necessary pairing with those chapters ;). They are important, nonetheless. Essos is the sum of Dany's existence and experience, which will ultimately define her personality when entering Westeros for good or bad.

[LordStoneheart]

Daenerys is liked because she is a strong independant woman, who want to rule and to conquer.

In modern era strong women are extremely popular in stories that's a fact.

There is something wrong when you call Jon more of a cliche than Daenerys that's for sure, because in 1 books she did way more than him in 5.

And as I said before Dany is liked because she is a strong woman, if she was a boy she wouldn't be liked that much.

Azor Ahai Reborn is a warrior, someone special who's born to stop the others once again.

Daenerys cannot lead an army into a battle, she cannot fight by herself all she can do is riding a Dragon who's gonna do all the job for her.

Is that what you expect from Azor Ahai Reborn? Just sit on my dragon and do absolutely nothing by myself.

If your answer is yes then tell me why Dany should be AAR over any other Dragon rider who are probably be more competent than her in many ways.

Wow the list is long.

Dany is a mary sue because.

1. She's a princess described as the most beautiful woman in the world.

2. She's the mother of 3 dragons, the strongest living things in the ASOIAF world.

3. There is a prophecy about her.

4. She's viewed as a savior and even called "breaker of chains".

5. A rapist,murder savage fell in love with her.

6. Everyone want to marry/sleep with her (Quentyn,Drogo,Euron,Victarion,Jorah list goes on).

7. She is conquering city at the age of 13 and everythinng foreshadows that she'll be way more successful than Daeron or Robb.

Oh yea and if you're right about the AAR/PTWP thing then it's even worse.

1. You do not get to decide why people love Daenerys. You get no say in it because you irrationally hate her. You have no idea why I am a fan of hers. You have only strawmen and accusations. Stop saying all Dany fans only love her because of her gender when it's obvious you hate her because of her gender, Mr. Rape Apologist. (yeah, we remember that thread.)

2. I don't devalue a person because they are not a fighter or a commander. If that's your prerogative, fine. It's quite shallow though.

3. Your list proves nothing. None of those are Mary Sue-ish except for her being beautiful, but this beauty is not the only thing that defines her. It probably is a curse consider those men you listed are not going there her. They're going there with their own agendas to use her. Only Jorah in that list actually cares for her as a person.

4. She was 15 and since you know about Daeron and Robb you should realize that the lesson to be learned there was that being a conqueror is not an endeavor to be taken lightly. Dany's conquest has not been a string of complete successes and her story is showing the very opposite of that. If she were a Mary Sue she'd have no problem taking over slaver's bay. As it happens, the author has a much better grasp of characters than you and is portraying her as very imperfect. Is that not the opposite of a Mary Sue? Wait, why am I asking you? You've already shown you don't know what that means.

[JonisHenryTudor]

1. You do not get to decide why people love Daenerys. You get no say in it because you irrationally hate her. You have no idea why I am a fan of hers. You have only strawmen and accusations. Stop saying all Dany fans only love her because of her gender when it's obvious you hate her because of her gender, Mr. Rape Apologist. (yeah, we remember that thread.)

2. I don't devalue a person because they are not a fighter or a commander. If that's your prerogative, fine. It's quite shallow though.

3. Your list proves nothing. None of those are Mary Sue-ish except for her being beautiful, but this beauty is not the only thing that defines her. It probably is a curse consider those men you listed are not going there her. They're going there with their own agendas to use her. Only Jorah in that list actually cares for her as a person.

4. She was 15 and since you know about Daeron and Robb you should realize that the lesson to be learned there was that being a conqueror is not an endeavor to be taken lightly. Dany's conquest has not been a string of complete successes and her story is showing the very opposite of that. If she were a Mary Sue she'd have no problem taking over slaver's bay. As it happens, the author has a much better grasp of characters than you and is portraying her as very imperfect. Is that not the opposite of a Mary Sue? Wait, why am I asking you? You've already shown you don't know what that means.

What?

[jon rhaegar stark]

Lord Stoneheart :is it really worth arguing with him on this how many threads we did these and continuing to have the same arguments over and over ....its pretty clear he hates danny to the core and will not hear any reasoning what we provide and ingnore any facts that are in the books ....