Heresy 128

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 128, the latest edition of the long-running thread that takes a sideways look at the Song of Ice and Fire.

Heresy covers a wide variety of subjects, but is largely about questioning some of the popular assumptions that the Wall and the Nights Watch were created to keep the Others at bay - and that the story is going to end with Jon Snow being identified as both the lost Targaryen heir and as Azor Ahai. However, as the story has progressed it’s become clear that nothing is as it seems and that there may even be somne truth in the old joke that it will turn out not to be Dany’s amazing dragons who save Westeros from the Others, but that the Others will help save Westeros from the dragons!

Heresy is about trying to figure out what’s really going on, by looking at clues in the text itself, and in identifying GRRM’s own sources and inspirations, ranging from Celtic and Norse mythology such as the Cu Chulainn cycle, the Morrigan and the Mabinogion, all the way through to Narnia and the original Land of Always Winter.

Stepping into the world of Heresy might appear confusing, but we are engaged in an exercise in chaos theory. It’s about making connections, sometimes real sometimes thematic, between east and west, between the various beliefs and types of magick - and also about reconciling the dodgy timelines. While most threads in this forum concentrate on a particular issue, we therefore range pretty widely and more or less in free-fall, in an effort to try and reach an understanding of what may really be happening through the resulting collision of ideas. However, beyond the firm belief that things are not as they seem, there is no such thing as an accepted heretic view on Craster’s sons or any of the other topics, and the fiercest critics of some of the ideas discussed on these pages are our fellow heretics

A link to Heresy 100 follows, in which will be found essays on seven major topics in heresy, with a bonus essay on the Crows: http://asoiaf.wester...138-heresy-100/. Links are also provided at the end of each of the essays to the relevant discussion thread, and for those made of sterner stuff we also have a link to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy.

Those essays were a project orchestrated by Mace Cooterian to celebrate the centennial edition, and by popular request we now intend to run a follow-up with five new topics for the five kings. So volunteers are requested to write the introductory essays. As before those volunteering will be randomly matched to the topics to ensure a fresh approach, and for that reason we’re keeping the topics secret until the drawing. If you are interested please PM Mace as soon as possible. Although it’s going to be tight we have a provisional target for completion by about Heresy 135 in order to make sure we’re through it before the perfect storm is unleashed by publication of the World Book.

Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed over the years. We’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour.

[Sleeve of Wizard]

I've been following the Significance of House Royce discussion and Waymar is on my mind.

Blood of the First Men and all of that, are adults killed and turned to wights or can they also be transformed into White Walkers?

I know Crasters boys are being changed but is it possible "First Men" like Waymar and Benjen could be transformed into WW?

[alienarea]

I've been following the Significance of House Royce discussion and Waymar is on my mind.

Blood of the First Men and all of that, are adults killed and turned to wights or can they also be transformed into White Walkers?

I know Crasters boys are being changed but is it possible "First Men" like Waymar and Benjen could be transformed into WW?

If they speak the old tongue, and have Stark blood, maybe.

Waymar: no old tongue, no Stark blood = dead

Also worth considering: do you need to have blood of the first men to become a wight?

[Black Crow]

I've been following the Significance of House Royce discussion and Waymar is on my mind.

Blood of the First Men and all of that, are adults killed and turned to wights or can they also be transformed into White Walkers?

I know Crasters boys are being changed but is it possible "First Men" like Waymar and Benjen could be transformed into WW?

At this stage we really don't know as the [still disputed] business of Craster's boys is all we've got so far. It has however been speculated that Craster's boys were being harvested because they had the skinchanging or warging gene. If this is so then in theory its possible that there might be adult changelings but only if they had the gene or whatever else might be in their blood; or to put it another way all wargs are First Men but not all First Men are wargs.

[Sleeve of Wizard]

Warging gene, I see how this would make sense.

I also think that would be an awesome pair of Levi's...

"Winter is Coming, try our new warging jeans."

[Hrafntýr]

Alternatively, for those who see the making of WWs in a less genetic light, I think the discussion has revolved a lot around the concept of sacrifice: the life force (or whatever) has to be freely offered. We've got that whole wildlings not naming babies til they're two thing, which I think might correspond to a certain sense of independent selfhood, after which a child could not be offered by an adult. Accordingly, this could open up some possibilities for an adult willingly offering him or herself up to the WWs. But even if this were so, would the WWs want an adult?

[Hrafntýr]

That said, the "skinchanging gene" business would make sense IF the WWs control the wights and IF they do it with something like skinchanging. But that still begs the question: would they want an adult with the skinchanging gene?

[The Free Folk]

Alternatively, for those who see the making of WWs in a less genetic light, I think the discussion has revolved a lot around the concept of sacrifice: the life force (or whatever) has to be freely offered. We've got that whole wildlings not naming babies til they're two thing, which I think might correspond to a certain sense of independent selfhood, after which a child could not be offered by an adult. Accordingly, this could open up some possibilities for an adult willingly offering him or herself up to the WWs. But even if this were so, would the WWs want an adult?

Maybe Coldhands as a case of an adult willingly sacrificing themselves? If true, could offer some interesting provisions for both the CH=Benjen and CH=NK theories.

[Black Crow]

That said, the "skinchanging gene" business would make sense IF the WWs control the wights and IF they do it with something like skinchanging. But that still begs the question: would they want an adult with the skinchanging gene?

That comes back again to the point of the Craster's sons business because it means that the white walkers are not the ultimate "foe", but merely janissaries; just soldiers. Grown-ups, perhaps such as Val, may be required for other reasons.

[wolfmaid7]

I've been following the Significance of House Royce discussion and Waymar is on my mind.

Blood of the First Men and all of that, are adults killed and turned to wights or can they also be transformed into White Walkers?

I know Crasters boys are being changed but is it possible "First Men" like Waymar and Benjen could be transformed into WW?

For this arguements sake,i think the problem with turning an adult into a ww is that imho they aren't a blank slate or they aren't "new life" but rather a corruption of death.

[wolfmaid7]

That said, the "skinchanging gene" business would make sense IF the WWs control the wights and IF they do it with something like skinchanging. But that still begs the question: would they want an adult with the skinchanging gene?

This arguement ive heard before and don't buy,but the essence of it i agree with.I believe the Wights are being Skinchanged just not by the wws.The issue with Craster's lot having a Skinchanging gene is that to our knowledge there has been no manifestation or expression of gene in the women. I find this highly unlikely that if the skinchanging gene existed in Craster that none of the girls has expressed it.I mean there are 19 wives and more youngins thus far and nothing .Yeah this seemsa brick Wall that in all the females and Craster this gene is dormant.

[lokisnow]

okay, so we've all had the wool pulled over our eyes by Martin regarding "Good" Queen Allysane, The New Gift, and in particular Queen's Crown.

One, The New Gift would have been massively economically disruptive. It robbed the Starks of a significant chunk of rents (incomes) supposedly those rents went to the Night's Watch, but it looks as though the land, fertile as it is, was more or less abandoned by the residents once the Night's Watch took over. Queens Crown, the town itself is long abandoned and in extreme disrepair, it wasn't just given up in the last few decades, but one or two hundred years ago, based on the description.

Bran says that the reason it was abandoned was because of Wildling raids. Jon doesn't give a reason for it's abandonment but the Wildlings are shocked the quality land is so abandoned. Jon also notes that Eddard intended to reclaim the gift in the spring. That suggests that the wildlings don't raid that far past the wall or that far inland. These supposedly experienced raiders are astonished by watchtowers. It sounds from the descriptions that Wildlings cross the wall infrequently at best--which makes sense if you consider the extreme difficulty involved. it takes a day to climb up, each way, and on the return trip you're bogged down by plunder. Not to mention the seemingly impossible task of carrying a struggling female captive up and over the wall.

So then, the wildlings have never seen Queens Crown but Bran says it was abandoned because of raiding, we've just seen that scaling the wall is extraordinarily difficult which puts a massive cap limiting the amounts of raids that are possible. The lack of horses available on the South Side of the Wall also severely limits the ability of the Wildlings to successfully raid or successfully escape. Neither Bran nor Jon ever think of any specific kidnapping raids when they're speaking of how terrible the wildling raiders are, yet you would expect them to have knowledge of any such raids, because Winterfell would have been informed. Despite this, they still take it for granted that the terrible and fell wildlings are a huge threat, despite the seeming scarcity of recent examples. In particular, Queens Crown would be a stronghold and the least likely place to be abandoned because of wildlings. There is natural shelter in the castle on the island in the lake and it is impossible for wildlings to cross the lake during a night raid.

So, Queens Crown was not abandoned because of wildling raiders, Queenscrown was clearly abandoned after the new gift. Either the watch was an unacceptably harsh rentier, or the loss of House Stark as rentier was too severe a blow to take. Or there are other magical or heretical reasons why such a place was abandoned.

And when a Stark takes up residence inside Queens Crown for a night a fearsome and unprecedented lightning storm descends upon the area. IT seems there is a parallel there to the fearsome and unprecedented blizzard that descends upon the area when a false stark is married under winterfell's heart tree...

Bran tells us that Queen's Crown was given that name after "Good" Queen Allysanne stayed there. Jon tells us that the crennalations were painted gold after she left.

I think both of those are just stories. I think the place was called Queen's Crown before she ever alighted there--or perhaps an old name was resurrected after she visited--But Queen's Crown may very well be the place where the Queen of the Night's King stayed. If you think about it, it is sort of a twin to the Fist of the First Men.

[Black Crow]

okay, so we've all had the wool pulled over our eyes by Martin regarding "Good" Queen Allysane, The New Gift, and in particular Queen's Crown.

One, The New Gift would have been massively economically disruptive. It robbed the Starks of a significant chunk of rents (incomes) supposedly those rents went to the Night's Watch, but it looks as though the land, fertile as it is, was more or less abandoned by the residents once the Night's Watch took over. Queens Crown, the town itself is long abandoned and in extreme disrepair, it wasn't just given up in the last few decades, but one or two hundred years ago, based on the description...

Some interesting thoughts here. I'm not sure I'm ready to buy into there being any hidden significance to Queenscrown, but there's certainly something odd about the desolation of the Gift.

I think it can be explained in various, perhaps interrelated ways; the North is vast and underpopulated and in weighing any incentives against drawbacks including the remoteness - especially in a clan-based culture - and perhaps the very proximity of something so unchancy as the Wall, but I really don't see the Wildlings doing the damage with the aforementioned Wall preventing free passage across the frontier.

And that raises another question. We're told of those Wildling invasions in the past. How did those armies get over the Wall?

[lokisnow]

Gendle and gornes tunnels is how they got under the wall.

[Hrafntýr]

"If the climbers reached the top of the Wall undetected, however, everything changed. Given time, they could carve out a toehold for themselves up there, throwing up ramparts of their own and dropping ropes and ladders for thousands more to clamber over after them. That was how Raymun Redbeard had done it." (ADwD, Jon 7)

But no way they're getting horses over!

ETA: I'm not so sure about Queenscrown having been the castle of the White Lady, but on the other hand we know from RL that humans are in the habit of building significant monuments and structures atop places that were significant to the cultures they displace. There could be shades of "Lady of the Lake" with the site (an island in a little lake). And isn't the weirwood at the village where Stannis is encamped also on an island in a lake?

[Black Crow]

Gendle and gornes tunnels is how they got under the wall.

That only accounts for Gendel and Gorne.

[addicted to snow]

Quoting Black Crow from the previous Thread:

Context is everything:

Asha saw only trees and shadows, the moonlit hills and the snowy peaks beyond. Then she realised the trees were creeping closer. "Oho," she laughed, "these mountain goats have cloaked themselves in pine boughs." The woods were on the move, creeping toward the castle like a slow green tide. She thought of a tale she had heard as a child, about the children of the forest and their battles with the First Men, when the greenseers turned the trees into warriors.

and then link it with this passage by Maester Luwin in AGoT:

“The children worked no metal. In place of mail, they wore long shirts of woven leaves and bound their legs in bark, so they seemed to melt into the wood. In place of swords, they carried blades of obsidian.”

“And still do.” Osha…

The tale Asha Greyjoy remembers, as she realises, relates not to womping willows but killer pygmies camouflaged as the northmen are.

I do not draw the same conclusion…

Yes Asha saw a mass of camouflaged enemies coming towards her that made it appear that the trees themselves were encroaching in on her location...

This Image, made Asha recall am old tale " about the children of the forest and their battles with the First Men, when the greenseers turned the trees into warriors".

--

"Greenseers turned the trees into warriors". -- to me this means that the Greenseers Animated the Trees - Bran can already move the tree's mouths.

How you take "Greenseers turned the trees into warriors" to mean anything else is beyond me - I think you are letting Asha's present circumstances influence your interpretation of the Tale...

--

There is also mention of Angry trees looking like they were ready to rip their root from the earth...

--

Also numerous references to the Weirwood leaves looking like hands...

--

Also have the FM burning the Weirwoods (probably because they posed a physical threat...

--

Bran has already shown that he can manipulate Weirwood trees via the weirnet in both the present & the past...

[wolfmaid7]

Quoting Black Crow from the previous Thread:

I do not draw the same conclusion…

Yes Asha saw a mass of camouflaged enemies coming towards her that made it appear that the trees themselves were encroaching in on her location...

This Image, made Asha recall am old tale " about the children of the forest and their battles with the First Men, when the greenseers turned the trees into warriors".

--

"Greenseers turned the trees into warriors". -- to me this means that the Greenseers Animated the Trees - Bran can already move the tree's mouths.

How you take "Greenseers turned the trees into warriors" to mean anything else is beyond me - I think you are letting Asha's present circumstances influence your interpretation of the Tale...

--

There is also mention of Angry trees looking like they were ready to rip their root from the earth...

--

Also numerous references to the Weirwood leaves looking like hands...

--

Also have the FM burning the Weirwoods (probably because they posed a physical threat...

--

Bran has already shown that he can manipulate Weirwood trees via the weirnet in both the present & the past...

First I have to ask....You doing shrooms? Many of us have theories that may seem unothridox and may be heretical in themselves and there is the wait and see attituide or maybes that go along with them. I can say imho with 100% confidence we are not seeing any Weirwood trees in this story going all Entish.GRRM is subtle and its not goiing to be all fanciful.For example i believe the DWs can and will speak not with their mouths but through their proxies....subtle, believable,realistic.I think there is precedence for that already.Not the Dragonheart stuff but subtle through the Wargbond.

While Toilken was much loved and inspired GRRM the type of fantasy they do is different.Trees walking in this story is not realistic to GRRM's theme of utilizing "low magic" and the moment trees starts walking around that will detract from the magical realism GRRM has employed.

To go deeper into your post you have to provide the text that says Bran made the mouth of a weirwood tree "move" actually "move" as to simulate speaking.

Next the reason the FM burnt the trees as expressed in the books was that they believed they were being spied on,which is consistent with and backed up by Halfhand's belief based on Jon's dream that the "trees have eyes again".

I am asking you to post the entire quote about "angry trees looking like they were ready to rip their roots out" so we can lokk at it contextually .I think this was being metaphorical or is GRRM's use of humanizing the unhuman e.g as is the "trees looking like they have hands"

Please post where Bran can manipulate weirwoods in the past and future in making them actually move.

Lastly,GRRM don't have to make the Weirwood trees move to be warriors,if by your statement the trees could move....Then they should have moved out the way of getting burned and bitch slapped some people.....That didn't happen.

[Hos the Hostage]

Please post where Bran can manipulate weirwoods in the past and future in making them actually move.

Lastly,GRRM don't have to make the Weirwood trees move to be warriors,if by your statement the trees could move....Then they should have moved out the way of getting burned and bitch slapped some people.....That didn't happen.

Hi, I'm new to heresy, found the threads rather interesting and overwhelming.

If this is already discussed, please give some link.

In the Theon chapter where he hears Bran calling his name, "for one moment it seemed as if it was Bran's face staring out the tree" or something like that. Arya remembers "the heart tree with its scary face" in one of her chapters. Could the face of the tree change depending on the greenseer looking through it? Or was Theon simply imagining Bran's face in his half delirious state?

[Mace Cooterian]

"Greenseers turned the trees into warriors". -- to me this means that the Greenseers Animated the Trees - Bran can already move the tree's mouths.

How you take "Greenseers turned the trees into warriors" to mean anything else is beyond me - I think you are letting Asha's present circumstances influence your interpretation of the Tale...

--

There is also mention of Angry trees looking like they were ready to rip their root from the earth...

--

Also numerous references to the Weirwood leaves looking like hands...

--

Also have the FM burning the Weirwoods (probably because they posed a physical threat...

--

Bran has already shown that he can manipulate Weirwood trees via the weirnet in both the present & the past...

First I have to ask....You doing shrooms?

Shrooms???

AtS, don't be a bogart. If your making tea, keep it. Last time I did that was in 1976 and damn near did not make it back from that debacle. Come to think of it, 1976 (maybe 75) is when I first read The Hobbit and LOTR.

Maybe I'm a greenseer now looking back at what I knew I was going to do and that I would see it now in the future...... :cool4: