R+L=J v.93

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

aGoT 35 :

I seem to remember another one, in addition to this one. Something about Ned taking Roberts proposal (proposal was not the word used though) to Winterfell...

[corbon]

You mean am I sure that Mya was born in either 279AC or 280AC? Yup, very much. See this link

I might not be able to tell you exactly which year she was born, but I can assure that she had been born by 281AC at least.

Great, strengthens my initial position, thanks. :)

The betrothal seems to have been Roberts idea. It was Ned who went to Winterfell to ask Rickard for Lyanna's hand in Roberts name (perhaps someone can help me with finding the quote?). The conversation between Ned and Lyanna took place the night that Rickard had agreed.

Actually the quote suggests Robert was there then. Rickard 'promised her hand to Robert', not 'agreed to Ned's proposal'. That sounds like Robert came with Ned. Not conclusive either way though.

It also does not at all suggest whose idea the betrothal was.

Robert was in love with Lyanna (according to his own words). Seems unlikely that he had been madly in love with her without ever having seen her, right?

Robert was full of shit.

He was so in love with her that at Harrenhal he spent his time drinking his mates under the table and ignoring her. And so in love with her that while thinking Rhaegar was raping her nightly he fucked his way through entire brothels.

I don't think he was ever in love with her, thats just his fantasy world 15 years after the war, and I see nothing that even suggests, let alone requires that he had to see her before their betrothal to feel that way some 17+ years later.

Robert could have visited Winterfell, sure. But like I said, Harrenhal is the only event that we know of that the two of them had ever met.

Thats not good enough when we have lots of potential opportunities and good reasons why they might be in the same location.

Mya was indeed born in the Vale before Ned left..

But like I stated, would the news that a Lord had a bastard daughter really travel outside of the region where he lives that quickly? It would be possible for Lyanna to have heard the rumour before, but the chances aren't all too big, I think.

And I've explained reasons why they would be that big, for Lyanna at least. There's a direct link from Lyanna to someone regularly in the Vale, and good reasons why she'd be interested in that sort of news. Plenty of reasons for someone to have passed that information along.

Well, we know that all four siblings were at Harrenhal in 281AC. The next we hear from Brandon, is that Brandon is at Riverrun, and that he will leave for some "unknown business", that eventually seems to bring him close to Winterfell, as he seems to have met up with his father and the 200 men big wedding party, on the way to Riverrun.

Err thats wierd. Brandon's going for some 'quick business' and will 'return soon' but gets almost to Winterfell?

More likely, if the App is accurate, Rickard was closer to Riverrun - which also explains the quick turnaround between Brandon's treason and trial.

Either way, Brandon is still in the south when we next see him.

What good reason would Lyanna have to remain in the south?

See #372.

[Alia of the knife]

My understanding on the app., was that GRRM himself sat for, and actually answered and confirmed some questions, (i. e. Lyannas name being the name on Rhaegars lips when he died), while being traditionally coy on some others, (i. e, Castle Black is the place of "death" for Jon, which is not the same as confirming his death, only identifying the origin).

While I don't think the App. is the final word, I also think there is some resistance to letting go of certain theories.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Great, strengthens my initial position, thanks. :)

;) all further stuff that can be said about when Mya was born, would, I think, be more speculation than fact.

Actually the quote suggests Robert was there then. Rickard 'promised her hand to Robert', not 'agreed to Ned's proposal'. That sounds like Robert came with Ned. Not conclusive either way though.

It also does not at all suggest whose idea the betrothal was.

That's why I'm looking for the other quote, since that suggested that Robert had asked Ned to go to Rickard to ask for him. I can't recall at the moment where that quote came from, and until now, my searches yielded nothing. I am beginning to wonder if I got it from the summary from westeros.org, or perhaps an SSM.

My search continues ;)

Robert was full of shit.

He was so in love with her that at Harrenhal he spent his time drinking his mates under the table and ignoring her. And so in love with her that while thinking Rhaegar was raping her nightly he fucked his way through entire brothels.

I don't think he was ever in love with her, thats just his fantasy world 15 years after the war, and I see nothing that even suggests, let alone requires that he had to see her before their betrothal to feel that way some 17+ years later.

Hah, yeah, Robert's words and actions don't always (read: nearly never) agree with one another.

And I've explained reasons why they would be that big, for Lyanna at least. There's a direct link from Lyanna to someone regularly in the Vale, and good reasons why she'd be interested in that sort of news. Plenty of reasons for someone to have passed that information along.

But wouldn't Lyanna only become interested in that sort of news about Robert when there was a betrothal in the making? Why would she care about a bastard of a friend of Ned whom she was not connected with? She would not be fishing for gossip on Robert until there was a reason to do so. Her betrothal seems the perfect reason to put effort in trying to find out stuff about Robert. But as we see, she already knew about Mya when the betrothal was made.

Err thats wierd. Brandon's going for some 'quick business' and will 'return soon' but gets almost to Winterfell?

More likely, if the App is accurate, Rickard was closer to Riverrun - which also explains the quick turnaround between Brandon's treason and trial.

Either way, Brandon is still in the south when we next see him.

Well, it's "soon" in westerosi standards... a few months (2, perhaps 3, I don't know, we have nothing to place the duel for as far as I know; all we can say is that it was within the year prior Brandon's death', as he was 20 years old at both occasions).

I read the app info as that Brandon had gone to whereever he had gone to, and on the way back met up with Rickard, and the new on Lyanna then reached them when they were close to Riverrun. I think you are right about the close to Riverrun part.. everything seems to have happened rather fast, and traveling from Riverrun to KL is much shorter than traveling from Winterfell to KL.

See #372.

Whoops, it seems I had missed that post of yours :) apologies (I quoted the text here for my own convenience :) )

Some good reasons why she might stay in the south are that she's been betrothed (or is about to be) to a Southron Lord but in the North is basically a wild tomboy with no mother or sisters.

From a 'womanly' side of things Rickard could very well have wished her to get some feminine influence and examples in her life in order to grow into being a Great Lady as opposed to a wild tomboy. The Whents would be ideal, at least two matrons and at least one daughter a few years older, and soon to be distantly connected family through Brandon's marriage to Catelyn (whose mother was a Whent)

From a future position side of things it would also be important for her to start forming friendships and relationships with southern nobles (and even more so, their wives/daughter). Those relationships will be very important in her future role as the Lady of Storms End, and make her life at Storms End a heck of a lot easier and nicer than being a lone suddenly-transplanted northern girl who knows nobody for several thousand miles and comes from a different culture and religion, yet is expected to be a leader and example.

I agree with this, but as you stated in the first line yourself, Lyanna being with the Whents could be because she was already betrothed.. or because she was about to be.

It also doesn't mean that she didn't went to Winterfell first, though.

I really do hope that the World Book does provide at least a little bit more information on all of the Lyanna/Robert betrothal, timeline wise..

[Ygrain]

Actually the quote suggests Robert was there then. Rickard 'promised her hand to Robert', not 'agreed to Ned's proposal'. That sounds like Robert came with Ned. Not conclusive either way though.

When Robert arrives at Winterfell in AGOT, it seems that he hasn't been to the North before. His impressions sound like the first-time journey and he never refers to a previous stay as one might expect if Winterfell was the place where he asked for Lyanna's hand.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I seem to remember another one, in addition to this one. Something about Ned taking Roberts proposal (proposal was not the word used though) to Winterfell...

I think the word you may be looking for is "suit", innit?

'UVA', on 26 Apr 2013 - 11:26 PM, said:

Yep, you beat me to it Alia! Lyanna's entry states that "she was betrothed to Robert Baratheon after her brother Eddard brought Robert's suit to Winterfell."

This suggests that Robert wasn't present when Rickard agreed to the betrothal.

from R+L=J v.47, time flies.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

But are we sure that Lyanna was already betrothed to Robert at the Tourney ?

Tendencies head that way if I'm not mistaken.

Conversation at Winterfell/ Engagement

Tourney at Harrnehal

Probably any engagements were done earliest possible - i.e. before the Great Tourney at Harrenhall.

Then they should have been announced, made public, with everyone around, at the time of the Tourney feasting.

Have you guys read Neds page on the app guys.

No chance. I'm-a-living in the App-free zone.

Thanks for the insight, I am always happy for any of that kind of information.

[BearQueen87]

Thanks for App information, guys

Robert was full of shit.

He was so in love with her that at Harrenhal he spent his time drinking his mates under the table and ignoring her. And so in love with her that while thinking Rhaegar was raping her nightly he fucked his way through entire brothels.
I don't think he was ever in love with her, thats just his fantasy world 15 years after the war, and I see nothing that even suggests, let alone requires that he had to see her before their betrothal to feel that way some 17+ years later.

I tend to agree. I think young Robert was in love with the idea of Lyanna, but not Lyanna herself. She was beautiful, sister to his best friend, daughter of a powerful lord. He got caught up in the idea of her. Ned recalls this to Robert at the Hand's Tourney when he says that Robert only ever saw her beauty, not the steel underneath.

I also agree with all those saying that Lyanna most likely stayed in the south after HH, for whatever reason.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I think the word you may be looking for is "suit", innit?

from R+L=J v.47, time flies.

That's the one!! :D so we at least know that Ned went to Winterfell to ask for Robert

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Ok, arguments are starting to make sense, the more I think about it. If Lyanna disappeared from the south (of which I am convinced), and with somewhat less than a year between the tourney and Lyanna's disappearance (I always pictured the tourney in the second half of the year, and Lyanna's disappearance seems to have occured around the middle of the year),it might indeed make sense that the betrothal had occured before the tourney. Though all the travel could have fit, sending Lyanna from Harrenhal to Winterfell and then back to Harrenhal might not make most sense. That said, someone had to escort Benjen back, and if Benjen did not accompany Brandon, then most likely Ned would have travelled to Winterfell with him.

Though I am still convinced that Robert and Lyanna should have at least seen each other once, since Robert went on and on abot her beauty (and if he liked the way she looked, it would help build a mental picture of how she was, without knowing much about her). So it would be great if the world book showed such an event (a tourney at Storm's End,perhaps?).

Though of course, both options remain possible, I will give the idea 'betrothal occured before Harrenhal' a bit more thought in my mind from now on.

[BearQueen87]

Ok, arguments are starting to make sense, the more I think about it. If Lyanna disappeared from the south (of which I am convinced), and with somewhat less than a year between the tourney and Lyanna's disappearance (I always pictured the tourney in the second half of the year, and Lyanna's disappearance seems to have occured around the middle of the year),it might indeed make sense that the betrothal had occured before the tourney. Though all the travel could have fit, sending Lyanna from Harrenhal to Winterfell and then back to Harrenhal might not make most sense. That said, someone had to escort Benjen back, and if Benjen did not accompany Brandon, then most likely Ned would have travelled to Winterfell with him.

Ned probably took Benjen home, I agree. And then he went to the Vale, right? He was with Jon Arryn (and Robert?) when the news came about Brandon and Lord Stark.

Though I am still convinced that Robert and Lyanna should have at least seen each other once, since Robert went on and on abot her beauty (and if he liked the way she looked, it would help build a mental picture of how she was, without knowing much about her). So it would be great if the world book showed such an event (a tourney at Storm's End,perhaps?).

Maybe it's possible that Ned simply talked about Lyanna quite a bit and Robert had an image in his head of what she was like. At the tourney at HH, he got confirmation that she was a great beauty and thought that the rest of his beliefs concerning Lyanna (that she'd be a good wife, dutiful, ect) would confirmed once married.

[BearQueen87]

Some good reasons why she might stay in the south are that she's been betrothed (or is about to be) to a Southron Lord but in the North is basically a wild tomboy with no mother or sisters.

From a 'womanly' side of things Rickard could very well have wished her to get some feminine influence and examples in her life in order to grow into being a Great Lady as opposed to a wild tomboy. The Whents would be ideal, at least two matrons and at least one daughter a few years older, and soon to be distantly connected family through Brandon's marriage to Catelyn (whose mother was a Whent)

From a future position side of things it would also be important for her to start forming friendships and relationships with southern nobles (and even more so, their wives/daughter). Those relationships will be very important in her future role as the Lady of Storms End, and make her life at Storms End a heck of a lot easier and nicer than being a lone suddenly-transplanted northern girl who knows nobody for several thousand miles and comes from a different culture and religion, yet is expected to be a leader and example.

Re-reading some stuff from overnight. This stood out. It makes a lot of sense especially if you remember what Cat thinks when Ned wants to take half his children to KL with him in aGoT. When Cat thinks of Arya in the south (a child we know has quite a bit in common with Lyanna), she thinks that Arya needs refinement so going to KL was key to fhat. The same could be said of Lyanna. If Rickard wanted his daughter to be a great Southron lady, then staying with a great southron family was the way to go. She needed to be tamed and refined before marrying Robert.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Re-reading some stuff from overnight. This stood out. It makes a lot of sense especially if you remember what Cat thinks when Ned wants to take half his children to KL with him in aGoT. When Cat thinks of Arya in the south (a child we know has quite a bit in common with Lyanna), she thinks that Arya needs refinement so going to KL was key to fhat. The same could be said of Lyanna. If Rickard wanted his daughter to be a great Southron lady, then staying with a great southron family was the way to go. She needed to be tamed and refined before marrying Robert.

Nice! :agree:

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Ned probably took Benjen home, I agree. And then he went to the Vale, right? He was with Jon Arryn (and Robert?) when the news came about Brandon and Lord Stark.

Yup, Jon Arryn, Robert and Ned were all at the Eyrie when Aerys' summons arrived.

Maybe it's possible that Ned simply talked about Lyanna quite a bit and Robert had an image in his head of what she was like. At the tourney at HH, he got confirmation that she was a great beauty and thought that the rest of his beliefs concerning Lyanna (that she'd be a good wife, dutiful, ect) would confirmed once married.

Maybe. But would a guy like Robert take such a chance, risking that Neds descriptions weren't 100% true and thus that he would end up with a wife he didn't think was pretty?

[BearQueen87]

Maybe. But would a guy like Robert take such a chance, risking that Neds descriptions weren't 100% true and thus that he would end up with a wife he didn't think was pretty?

Ned's a brother to Robert, a brother he loves more than the ones he actually has. He also knows that Ned is a fair and honest guy (I think Ned was Ned-like even as a youth). He'd have no reason to doubt Ned if Ned said that his sister was of surpassing loveliness.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

But would a guy like Robert take such a chance, risking that Neds descriptions weren't 100% true and thus that he would end up with a wife he didn't think was pretty?

Definitely:

1. Ned never lies (Robert thinks)

Who buggering cares, as long as she is a fierce fighter with a sword!

[Natasi]

Definitely:

• Ned never lies (Robert thinks)
• Who buggering cares, as long as she is a fierce fighter with a sword!

Except Robert doesn't strike me as the type who wants a fighter for a wife. She'd be a pretty trophy to add to his mantle, further enhancing his ego and larger than life reputation.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Except Robert doesn't strike me as the type who wants a fighter for a wife. She'd be a pretty trophy to add to his mantle, further enhancing his ego and larger than life reputation.

Haven't done a Robert Baratheon re-read yet, but I differ: I have pictured a physically strong and straightforward woman would suit Robert's temper. He got Cersei, though.

eta: reported

[BearQueen87]

Haven't done a Robert Baratheon re-read yet, but I differ: I have pictured a physically strong and straightforward woman would suit Robert's temper. He got Cersei, though.

Hmmm. I don't know. When Ned confronts Robert during the Hand's Tourney, Robert complains that Lyanna "would never have shamed me this way" because Cersei didn't want Robert to joust. Robert seems to think that Lyanna wouldn't have called him out on his bull crap, but Ned begs to differ: "you saw her beauty, not the steel underneath."

[Natasi]

Hmmm. I don't know. When Ned confronts Robert during the Hand's Tourney, Robert complains that Lyanna "would never have shamed me this way" because Cersei didn't want Robert to joust. Robert seems to think that Lyanna wouldn't have called him out on his bull crap, but Ned begs to differ: "you saw her beauty, not the steel underneath."

I would agree that a strong woman would have been good for Robert (a Mormont, for example) but I doubt Robert recognized that and would prefer someone of the arm candy variety. Someone to laugh at his jokes and stroke his ego. His tendency toward brothels and the devotion of those women (women trained to please their partner) speaks to that.