R+L=J v.93

[Ellfoy]

Meanwhile, Robert Baratheon...

Jokes aside, I've been thinking for a while about all of these events, and whatever Rhaegar got in mind that time. But I need to made a few more re-reads (maybe the next thread, the 94)

Considering that the whole Tourney in Harrenhall was a decoy for him to meet with main lords (allegedly), it's very odd that he went and crown a betrothed lady being married himself. If Lyanna was indeed the KotLT and Rhaegar discovered, instead of shaming her in front of everybody (because he probably did that), it would have been more "knightly" to tell her that he would grant her something she requested, any favour from the crown, so to speak.

But are we sure that Lyanna was already betrothed to Robert at the Tourney ?

[BearQueen87]

That's the thing.

I'm horrific with the timelines. And especially with some events. I post a lot for Arya, Gendry, and other stuff. Totally much more my area.

Is that definite that she and Rhaeger never met or had any contact before Harrenhal? And this conversation then, with Ned and Lyanna, happened at Winterfell before Harrenhal?

I am totally not clear on that.

Cause I totally come on this thread when I need to check stuff out I don't know. LOL!

It's not definite but it doesn't seem likely that they met or had other contact before Harrenhal.

But are we sure that Lyanna was already betrothed to Robert at the Tourney ?

I think so.

Conversation at Winterfell/ Engagement

Tourney at Harrnehal

It can't be the other way around for time and distance reasons

Tourney at Harrenhal

Leave Harrnehal

Conversation at Winterfell

Back to the Riverlands where she was "taken"

This assumes that she was taken from Harrenhal or somewhere close, which I'm pretty sure she was. Very certain that she wasn't taken from WF but remained at HH.

[Ellfoy]

It's not definite but it doesn't seem likely that they met or had other contact before Harrenhal.

I think so.

Conversation at Winterfell/ Engagement

Tourney at Harrnehal

It can't be the other way around for time and distance reasons

Tourney at Harrenhal

Leave Harrnehal

Conversation at Winterfell

Back to the Riverlands where she was "taken"

This assumes that she was taken from Harrenhal or somewhere close, which I'm pretty sure she was. Very certain that she wasn't taken from WF but remained at HH.

I always assumed that she was taken while ridding to go to Brandon's wedding at Riverrun, don't know why. And anyways, there is plenty of time between Harrenhal and the "abduction" for lyanna to go to winterfell. I don't think she stayed at Harrenhal for a year waiting for Rhaegar to take her, why would she ? She certainly go to Winterfell after the tourney.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I always assumed that she was taken while ridding to go to Brandon's wedding at Riverrun, don't know why.

It is the most logical conclusion, tbh. For Rhaegar to go North and return with her to Dorne, unless he took a ship, it's too much time.

[Ellfoy]

It is the most logical conclusion, tbh. For Rhaegar to go North and return with her to Dorne, unless he took a ship, it's too much time.

And it makes sense with Brandon being the first to react and storming in the capital.

[BearQueen87]

I always assumed that she was taken while ridding to go to Brandon's wedding at Riverrun, don't know why. And anyways, there is plenty of time between Harrenhal and the "abduction" for lyanna to go to winterfell. I don't think she stayed at Harrenhal for a year waiting for Rhaegar to take her, why would she ? She certainly go to Winterfell after the tourney.

I think she stayed on at Harrenhal or somewhere nearby (Riverrun isn't far away and she would be traveling there for the wedding). Taking her from WF doesn't work since the north is so vast and by the time the news gets to Brandon (via raven) R and L would still be trying to get out of the north. They'd cross each other.

While at Harrenhal L and R communicated somehow (R sent ravens to Benjen at WF which then he passed on to Lyanna at Harrenhal?). That's my working theory at least.

[Booknerd2]

I can't remember where I read this.

Isn't there some theory regarding Lyanna getting taken from Harrenhal, the Whent seat, and Whent the KG member being one of the 3 at TOJ guarding her? That Whents were complicit with Rhaegar from her "taking" up until TOJ?

[Ellfoy]

But there is like one year between Harrenhal and the abduction so Lyanna can go back to Winterfell, spent a few months there and go assist to Brandon's wedding in the Riverlands and be taken on the way.

EDIT: Can't answer anymore, going to sleep... It's 6:30 AM home...

[Ser Leftwich]

IIRC, there is a SSM that has something about Robert's reaction to Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna. (Looking for it now.)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

IIRC, there is a SSM that has something about Robert's reaction to Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna. (Looking for it now.)

In the app, I think. He was mad. Or at least, "disturbed".

[Ser Leftwich]

In the app, I think. He was mad. Or at least, "disturbed".

That is what I was thinking of the APP... which does not tell us if the arrangement had been made yet.

Even if Ned has suggested it to Robert before ToH, it seems safe to think that Robert, shallow as we know him to be, would want to see Lyanna before he asked for her hand, officially.

Once he saw her, he would be fine with it. So he may have been possessive of Lyanna as soon as he saw her for the first time, even if he had no official reason (a betrothal) to be pissed about.

(I still can't get over my crack-pot that Aerys wanted to be involved in arranging a marriage for Robert, as Robert had to family to arrange one for him.)

[corbon]

I remembered that it was at Winterfell and I always assumed that it was before the Tourney but it was never stated in the books, then I read on that forum that Lyanna and Robert were betrothed after the Tourney, meaning that this conversation took place after the Tourney. It was in old R+L=J forum members posts so I had assumed that they had better informations but I dunno :dunno:

Its not stated anywhere when it was. Some calculations can be made based around the birth/age of Mya Stone. IIRC when we went over this in some detail the best guess was that, mathematically, it was 10ish months birthday chances likely to be after vs 2ish months birthday chances likely to be before, or something likely that. So mathematically at least 4-1+ odds after, but thats a dubious way of calculating it given GRRMs comments about parsing things down too tightly.

Starting to recall, apologies if I get this wrong, but IIRC I think the way it goes is that if Mya Stone was born Jan/Feb, then Ned returned to Winterfell from the Vale before they all went south, the announcement and conversation is at Winterfell late Feb, the tourney is early March, the abduction late November/early December.

If Mya Stone is a March-December birth then there won't be enough time in the year to get everything in. Hence the 5-1 odds and the general assumption the conversation is after, which some people perhaps start to state as fact.

If fact we still don't know and I think the literary odds, as opposed to the mathematical odds, are significantly more even, perhaps even skewed the other way. All it takes is a different year for Mya's birthday and everything changes radically, never mind that it still fits either way.

That's the thing.

I'm horrific with the timelines. And especially with some events. I post a lot for Arya, Gendry, and other stuff. Totally much more my area.

Is that definite that she and Rhaeger never met or had any contact before Harrenhal? And this conversation then, with Ned and Lyanna, happened at Winterfell before Harrenhal?

I am totally not clear on that.

Cause I totally come on this thread when I need to check stuff out I don't know. LOL!

Its not definite that the conversation happened before Harrenhal.

Its close to definite that she and Rhaegar never met before Harrenhal, but not certain. She was 14 at Harrenhal, believed to be on her first trip to the south, and there is no knowledge of Rhaegar going to Winterfell before (or after). But again, we don't actually know, I think.

It's not definite but it doesn't seem likely that they met or had other contact before Harrenhal.

I think so.

Conversation at Winterfell/ Engagement

Tourney at Harrnehal

It can't be the other way around for time and distance reasons

Tourney at Harrenhal

Leave Harrnehal

Conversation at Winterfell

Back to the Riverlands where she was "taken"

This assumes that she was taken from Harrenhal or somewhere close, which I'm pretty sure she was. Very certain that she wasn't taken from WF but remained at HH.

It certainly can. There is around a 9 months to a year between Harrenhal tourney and 'abduction', easily enough time to travel north and back south again.

Personally though, I think it much more likely she stayed south rather than returning to Winterfell, which means the announcement and her discussion with Ned were before Harrenhal, even if that tightens the timeline quite closely (it still fits if Mya's birthday is within the short side of the year split, and GRRM warns us not to define things too closely anyway). See below for why.

I always assumed that she was taken while ridding to go to Brandon's wedding at Riverrun, don't know why. And anyways, there is plenty of time between Harrenhal and the "abduction" for lyanna to go to winterfell. I don't think she stayed at Harrenhal for a year waiting for Rhaegar to take her, why would she ? She certainly go to Winterfell after the tourney.

Some good reasons why she might stay in the south are that she's been betrothed (or is about to be) to a Southron Lord but in the North is basically a wild tomboy with no mother or sisters.

From a 'womanly' side of things Rickard could very well have wished her to get some feminine influence and examples in her life in order to grow into being a Great Lady as opposed to a wild tomboy. The Whents would be ideal, at least two matrons and at least one daughter a few years older, and soon to be distantly connected family through Brandon's marriage to Catelyn (whose mother was a Whent)

From a future position side of things it would also be important for her to start forming friendships and relationships with southern nobles (and even more so, their wives/daughter). Those relationships will be very important in her future role as the Lady of Storms End, and make her life at Storms End a heck of a lot easier and nicer than being a lone suddenly-transplanted northern girl who knows nobody for several thousand miles and comes from a different culture and religion, yet is expected to be a leader and example.

[Ser Creighton]

Have you guys read Neds page on the app guys. It appears in chronological order. Ned was no longer fostering with Lord Arryn but would visit him regularly, he brought Roberts proposal back with him. This predates HH on the app.

Also have you read Rhaegar' page, about him not finding a scroll but a book about the promised prince who would one day fight a great evil?

So later he becomes convinced that Aegon is the promised prince in the app, I know many of you know this.

Apparently at Summerhall he would not only walk around sining but shedding tears on his harp according to the app. I am sorry but the Emo level is rising to new heights with this guy. The songs were sad songs of dead kings.

In the app rumor had it that he was in the south with Lyanna at a place he called the tower of joy near the red mountains of Dorne. Eventually Aerys sent Hightower to recall Rhaegar to his duties.

Rhaegar ordered Arthur, Gerold, and Oswald to keep watch over her.

So not all this info is in the book like cry baby Rhaegar, so who wrote this stuff? Cause as written in the app a lot of things are rather cheese balled to new heights. I mean walking around crying on his harp? Really?

But the app appears to answer the question of when the proposal was made for Lyanna. Is the app official because there are some things in there I do not recall being in the books. Also the writing in the app is kind of crappy and not really Martins style. Not that anything is a big change their is just things in there not in the books. Not major things, but things, either that or my memory is getting really bad.

[corbon]

But the app appears to answer the question of when the proposal was made for Lyanna. Is the app official because there are some things in there I do not recall being in the books. Also the writing in the app is kind of crappy and not really Martins style. Not that anything is a big change their is just things in there not in the books. Not major things, but things, either that or my memory is getting really bad.

My understanding is that the App is 'the official App', but I don't believe that makes it canon, it just puts it way ahead of any other app or similar that comes out. My understanding is that virtually none of it was written by GRRM, but it is mostly the synopsis of the best/most likely things officially known so far, with there being some unofficial (ie unpublished) data from GRRM added (ie conversations, emails, world book drafts etc). And GRRM has 'officially' endorsed it and sort of checked it.

What I take from that is that:

i) the App is put together by very smart people who did a great job of extrapolating and parsing out extra details. Even where it isn't canon, its very likely to be accurate. But not guaranteed.

ii) there is no way GRRM read every line, let alone thought about its implications and checked every tiny data point. There's just not the time possible for him to do that. So its very likely to have the broad details right (things he could easily say 'thats not right' with a skim read) but is likely less 'checked' (ie less reliable) on small details and especially inferences from those small details

iii) there are some new data points there that are from canon sources, and some new data points there that are just extrapolations from canon and 'most/highly likely scenarios', and we can't tell which is which.

Other peoples MM(and do)V.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

In the app, I think. He was mad. Or at least, "disturbed".

The word used in the app was "irritated". :P

As to all the timeline stuff (to many questions to quote):

Mya Stone was born in 279/280AC, so definitly before the Tourney. But Mya's birth isn't the only thing.. Robert also needs motivation to ask for Lyannas hand, and that would be meeting and seeing her. Harrenhal is the only moment we know they would have met.

In addition, Lyanna needed to learn about Mya. Rumours about some bastard girl would not spread all that soon, but Valemen were at the tourney in 281, and thus rumours could have reached Lyanna there.

So while we can't say it with 100% certainty, it seems highly likely that the betrothal was made after Harrenhals tourney, with Lyanna and Ned at Winterfell.

As to a possible thought on Lyannas quote about love: perhaps the reason she said it, was because for the first time in her life she was in love(ish) herself? With Rhaegar (crush!). For this, the betrothal needs to have been made after Harrrenhal though.

[Ser Creighton]

My understanding is that the App is 'the official App', but I don't believe that makes it canon, it just puts it way ahead of any other app or similar that comes out. My understanding is that virtually none of it was written by GRRM, but it is mostly the synopsis of the best/most likely things officially known so far, with there being some unofficial (ie unpublished) data from GRRM added (ie conversations, emails, world book drafts etc). And GRRM has 'officially' endorsed it and sort of checked it.

What I take from that is that:

i) the App is put together by very smart people who did a great job of extrapolating and parsing out extra details. Even where it isn't canon, its very likely to be accurate. But not guaranteed.

ii) there is no way GRRM read every line, let alone thought about its implications and checked every tiny data point. There's just not the time possible for him to do that. So its very likely to have the broad details right (things he could easily say 'thats not right' with a skim read) but is likely less 'checked' (ie less reliable) on small details and especially inferences from those small details

iii) there are some new data points there that are from canon sources, and some new data points there that are just extrapolations from canon and 'most/highly likely scenarios', and we can't tell which is which.

Other peoples MM(and do)V.

Ok, ok, but how did they walk away from the book with Rhaegar wandering around summerhall crying on his harp strings? Cause that seems just totally made up to me. I wanna who snuck that in there? They need to be punched by Brock Lesner.

[corbon]

As to all the timeline stuff (to many questions to quote):

Mya Stone was born in 279/280AC, so definitly before the Tourney. But Mya's birth isn't the only thing..

Sure? I'm not strong on that, just recall MtnLion, I think, and I discussing that, based on his data. If Mya is born well before the tourney then the case for the conversation being before the tourney is very much stronger.

Robert also needs motivation to ask for Lyannas hand, and that would be meeting and seeing her. Harrenhal is the only moment we know they would have met.

Bad reasoning here I think.

Did Robert ask for her hand or was it offered by Rickard as part of his alliance building?

Nor would Robert necessarily need to see her to ask, if he did the asking. He could do it simply because she is Ned's sister.

Nor is it unreasonable for Robert to have visited Winterfell with Ned, or Lyanna to have visited Ned in the Vale. There is no reason to assume that Robert and Lyanna never met before Harrenhal.

In addition, Lyanna needed to learn about Mya. Rumours about some bastard girl would not spread all that soon, but Valemen were at the tourney in 281, and thus rumours could have reached Lyanna there.

Mya Stone was born before Ned left the Vale wasn't she?, so someone around him could easily have carried the rumour back to Winterfell. There is no good reason to assume Lyanna couldn't have heard the rumour before she went to Harrenhal.

So while we can't say it with 100% certainty, it seems highly likely that the betrothal was made after Harrenhals tourney, with Lyanna and Ned at Winterfell.

I utterly disagree. We have no good reasons at all to point to after, and good reasons to point to before. It makes perfect sense for the Stark siblings to not come back to Winterfell after Harrenhal. All of them bar Benjen were south when they are next seen, and all of them have solid reasons (as does Rickard, on their behalf) to saty in the south/vale.

While the multiple trips travel is easily doable in the time available, its a lot of wasted time and cost for no good reason for the most part, and there are lots of good reasons to stay in the south.

Ok, ok, but how did they walk away from the book with Rhaegar wandering around summerhall crying on his harp strings? Cause that seems just totally made up to me. I wanna who snuck that in there? They need to be punched by Brock Lesner.

Maybe they do. Or maybe its one of those new pieces of data from canon sources and you'll just have to suck it up.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Ok, ok, but how did they walk away from the book with Rhaegar wandering around summerhall crying on his harp strings? Cause that seems just totally made up to me. I wanna who snuck that in there? They need to be punched by Brock Lesner.

Don't be so hard on Rhaegar for that... I mean, his main family died the day he was born, that's very tragic, not only because they died but because very Rhaegar's name day everybody remembers what happened.

I mean, picture the four years old Rhaegar all excited about being four years old with his little cake and his candles, waiting for his dad to says "happy name day!" and he's all "shut up, my grandfather died, go away...". No wonder he ended up believing he would be the Prince That Was Promised... "I will save everybody's asses and NO ONE will ever forget my name day, assholes!!!".

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Sure? I'm not strong on that, just recall MtnLion, I think, and I discussing that, based on his data. If Mya is born well before the tourney then the case for the conversation being before the tourney is very much stronger.

You mean am I sure that Mya was born in either 279AC or 280AC? Yup, very much. See this link

I might not be able to tell you exactly which year she was born, but I can assure that she had been born by 281AC at least.

Bad reasoning here I think.

Did Robert ask for her hand or was it offered by Rickard as part of his alliance building?

Nor would Robert necessarily need to see her to ask, if he did the asking. He could do it simply because she is Ned's sister.

Nor is it unreasonable for Robert to have visited Winterfell with Ned, or Lyanna to have visited Ned in the Vale. There is no reason to assume that Robert and Lyanna never met before Harrenhal.

The betrothal seems to have been Roberts idea. It was Ned who went to Winterfell to ask Rickard for Lyanna's hand in Roberts name (perhaps someone can help me with finding the quote?). The conversation between Ned and Lyanna took place the night that Rickard had agreed.

Robert was in love with Lyanna (according to his own words). Seems unlikely that he had been madly in love with her without ever having seen her, right?

Robert could have visited Winterfell, sure. But like I said, Harrenhal is the only event that we know of that the two of them had ever met.

Mya Stone was born before Ned left the Vale wasn't she?, so someone around him could easily have carried the rumour back to Winterfell. There is no good reason to assume Lyanna couldn't have heard the rumour before she went to Harrenhal.

Mya was indeed born in the Vale before Ned left..

But like I stated, would the news that a Lord had a bastard daughter really travel outside of the region where he lives that quickly? It would be possible for Lyanna to have heard the rumour before, but the chances aren't all too big, I think.

I utterly disagree. We have no good reasons at all to point to after, and good reasons to point to before. It makes perfect sense for the Stark siblings to not come back to Winterfell after Harrenhal. All of them bar Benjen were south when they are next seen, and all of them have solid reasons (as does Rickard, on their behalf) to saty in the south/vale.

While the multiple trips travel is easily doable in the time available, its a lot of wasted time and cost for no good reason for the most part, and there are lots of good reasons to stay in the south.

Well, we know that all four siblings were at Harrenhal in 281AC. The next we hear from Brandon, is that Brandon is at Riverrun, and that he will leave for some "unknown business", that eventually seems to bring him close to Winterfell, as he seems to have met up with his father and the 200 men big wedding party, on the way to Riverrun.

Ned had just come from the Vale before Harrenhal, so if there was any time to visit Winterfell, it would have been after.. All we know is that about a year later, Ned is in the Vale again. It's not because of his fostering.. Ned is 18, his fostering ended 2 years prior. But GRRM did say that Ned liked to visit frequently. And then there's Benjen.. the young pup, who undoubtly would not have been allowed to travel from Harrenhal to Winterfell on his own. Ned could have escorted Benjen back to Winterfell.

And then there's Lyanna. We don't know from where she disappeared, so for her, the least can be said. But again, the time between Harrenhal and her disappearence seems to have been between 6 months and a year, so potentially, she could have travelled from Harrenhal to Winterfell and from Winterfell to whereever she disappeared from (in the case that this location wasn't Winterfell, which I highly doubt).

What good reason would Lyanna have to remain in the south?

[Mychel_Redfort]

The betrothal seems to have been Roberts idea. It was Ned who went to Winterfell to ask Rickard for Lyanna's hand in Roberts name (perhaps someone can help me with finding the quote?). The conversation between Ned and Lyanna took place the night that Rickard had agreed.

aGoT 35 :

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."