What age should you be to begin reading ASoIaF?

[Berric_Dondiedagain]

as with any parent- since you are acting as one- if you feel she is mature enough- let her read it-and discuss its contents and things with her-

[cxvb]

IMHO the appropriate literature for 13 year olds is to be found in the Young Adult section. These sections aren't made by The Man to keep young people down, they are made based on the realisation that different issues are relevant to different ages and that different ages need different approaches to similar topics. There is some wiggle room, but e.g. 13 year olds are unlikely to be concerned with issues of paternity and legacy and are much more likely to be concerned with issues of identity and independence from parental figures.

Going out on a limb I'd say, no 13 year old will get Catelyn's chapters the way someone with children (or who decided against children) will. They may get something else out of those chapters, but along that line of argument anything is grist for the mill. Age appropriate material is the material that is most likely to yield the most return for investment, as it speaks to a young persons issues in an appropriate language.

Arguments like "I did it" or "it can be done" are besides the point, as the same applies to Finnegans Wake and yet most people would not recommend it for 13 year olds.

The issue in the OP seems to be a desire to on the part of the 13 year old to share in more adult entertainment, and that strikes me as an excellent opportunity to discuss why different age groups enjoy and use different materials and whether the desire to share might be met in some other way. Viewing it merely as a "can she handle it" or allow/deny situation strikes me as a disservice to the younger person: We know beforehand that she's not in it for the nihilism and the cynicism and the (sexual) violence, so why even consider exposing her to that when the urge to share can be met otherwise? ASoIaF isn't the only worthwhile book to read and not the only one to geek out over.

[ChillyPolly]

IMHO the appropriate literature for 13 year olds is to be found in the Young Adult section.

Ummm .... not necessarily. What is found there is stuff that the publishers think will sell, just as fast food is found at McDonalds.

[Illuminated by Fire]

IMHO the appropriate literature for 13 year olds is to be found in the Young Adult section. These sections aren't made by The Man to keep young people down, they are made based on the realisation that different issues are relevant to different ages and that different ages need different approaches to similar topics. There is some wiggle room, but e.g. 13 year olds are unlikely to be concerned with issues of paternity and legacy and are much more likely to be concerned with issues of identity and independence from parental figures.

Going out on a limb I'd say, no 13 year old will get Catelyn's chapters the way someone with children (or who decided against children) will. They may get something else out of those chapters, but along that line of argument anything is grist for the mill. Age appropriate material is the material that is most likely to yield the most return for investment, as it speaks to a young persons issues in an appropriate language.

Arguments like "I did it" or "it can be done" are besides the point, as the same applies to Finnegans Wake and yet most people would not recommend it for 13 year olds.

The issue in the OP seems to be a desire to on the part of the 13 year old to share in more adult entertainment, and that strikes me as an excellent opportunity to discuss why different age groups enjoy and use different materials and whether the desire to share might be met in some other way. Viewing it merely as a "can she handle it" or allow/deny situation strikes me as a disservice to the younger person: We know beforehand that she's not in it for the nihilism and the cynicism and the (sexual) violence, so why even consider exposing her to that when the urge to share can be met otherwise? ASoIaF isn't the only worthwhile book to read and not the only one to geek out over.

I completely disagree. If you make such a statement like "the appropriate literature for 13 year olds is to be found in the Young Adult section" you have absolutely no understanding of how different 13 year olds actually are. One basic ability of humans is being able to emphazise with others. The majority here was never a hostage or have gone through things like Tyrion or Bran did. That does not mean we cannot understand why they feel and act the way they do (which is not the same as condoning it). And that applies to 13 year olds as well, for some more, for some less, depending on how mature they already are, which varies wildly. I remember the concepts I thought of at the age of twelve to fourteen very well, since it was a defining time for me, some (but not all) of them: Religion, morality and violence and its impact. Do all 13 year olds think about such things? Of course not, but that is not the point. The ones who do not will not have much interest in reading this series anyways.

To the statement: "Arguments like "I did it" or "it can be done" are besides the point"

It is the complete opposite, it is the only point that matters. There is a certain interest from her in the themes of this series and the OP says she is a very mature reader for her age. There is no reason whatsoever why she should not read it. The point about nihilism and violence falls short because these things are not seperate from the issues presented in the series, they are an integral part of many of them. You cannot simply put that aside and say since she is not interested in those themes directly (where is that stated by the way?) there is no point in exposing her to that, since there is a connection to the other themes. A mother fearing for her child is one thing, but actually experiencing the violence that people are capable of changes it from a merely abstract observation in something extremely personal. The Red Wedding is not just a shocking moment but really drives home what the stakes of the war were from the beginning and that losing is not just an abstract possibility, but something that can become reality very quickly. And it does, in one of the most brutal ways imaginable. Putting such things aside severely lessens the experience.

Will she pick up on the more subtle points should she end up reading it? Not all of them, but probably on many more of them than you would think. Will she pick up on other things should she read it when she is older? Of course, but the books do not go away, you can always reread them. I'll wager that is the case for most people who end up rereading the series, regardless of age. There is no reason to wait with reading them. More complicated points can always be discussed.

[KJR the PR of TaFW]

I first read ASOIAF at my older brothers recommendation at the age of 12. I was a mature reader and fell in love with the series immediately. It all depends on the reader, and how much they actually like the books.

[ChillyPolly]

I first read ASOIAF at my older brothers recommendation at the age of 12.

And, of course, you turned out wonderfully, in every possible way.

[RuthBolton]

While completely different, I started reading the Earth's Children series (Clan of the Cave Bear, etc) when I was 7 or 8. I was 11 when the penultimate book in the series came out, and my teacher loaned me her copy. While the worldview depicted in those books is significantly less dark than in ASOIAF, some fairly heavy topics are addressed starting in the first book, and from the second book onwards the sex scenes are much more graphic than GRRM's. It didn't bother me and I do not believe it negatively affected me. Not every teenager is stuck with the (mostly) garbage in the young adult section.

[ChillyPolly]

I think more of the sex scenes are written to be disturbing than arousing.

Is this a justification? I may be a bit prudish, but I am not so prudish that I think a sex scene that arouses is somehow worse than one that demeans and degrades.

[John Doe]

And, of course, you turned out wonderfully, in every possible way.

If not I doubt it's because of the books.

[cxvb]

If you make such a statement like "the appropriate literature for 13 year olds is to be found in the Young Adult section" you have absolutely no understanding of how different 13 year olds actually are.

We agree they vary widely. Yet only a very tiny, insignificant percentage of them will be as mature as the average 20 year old. (Of course, there are some, again a tiny, insignficant percentage of 20 year olds that are less mature than the average 13 year old.) The number of people believing their children are among that special percentage way above their peers is much larger than the number that actually are. And the chance, that an unknown 13 year old is among that tiny percentage is ... a tiny percentage, not what one should base one's recommendation on.

Partly it's simply a physical thing: for one adolescent brains still undergo considerable changes (e.g. http://www.nea.org/tools/16653.htm ; http://www.greatschools.org/parenting/health-nutrition/867-early-adolescence.gs) second the mental side of their sexual development is far from done.

It is the complete opposite, it is the only point that matters. There is a certain interest from her in the themes of this series and the OP says she is a very mature reader for her age. There is no reason whatsoever why she should not read it. The point about nihilism and violence falls short because these things are not seperate from the issues presented in the series, they are an integral part of many of them. You cannot simply put that aside and say since she is not interested in those themes directly (where is that stated by the way?) there is no point in exposing her to that, since there is a connection to the other themes.

First off, no. For one, the question will bring out people with a vested interest in defending their own choices that fail to consider the question independently from themselves. Second, the same would apply to "can my 13 year old be a child soldier?". There are certainly some for whom that worked out. "Can my very mature 13 year old watch hardcore pornography?" Again, that certainly worked out for some, but that fact in itself is meaningless to the general question and the reasonable response which is "hell, no!". Third, see above: "very mature 13 year old" is still a child.

Your second point, see below, if the interest is in the themes, there is most likely age appropriate material. More importantly, the OP says "My younger sister wants to start reading the series, as she's noticed how obsessed I am." No word about themes. See my previous post, it reads to my like a desire to share, to connect, not a genuine interest in mature fantasy. Check one page back Luthien Targaryen provided a long list of good fantasy stuff that is more age appropriate. On a page per page basis a 13 year old will get more out of those books.

Will she pick up on the more subtle points should she end up reading it? Not all of them, but probably on many more of them than you would think. Will she pick up on other things should she read it when she is older? Of course, but the books do not go away, you can always reread them. I'll wager that is the case for most people who end up rereading the series, regardless of age. There is no reason to wait with reading them. More complicated points can always be discussed.

That's dodging the question of whether the material is age appropriate. It isn't. Discussion and rereads are good, but that applies to Finnegans Wake as well. It is better in every way to expose children to themes (even the same themes) with age appropriate material they can get on the first read and where discussing the stuff with grown ups is optional and more motivated by a desire to share than by a need to understand or cope.

And the mature response to a child wanting to read the mature books oneself is enjoying is not to repeat to oneself "she can do it" and hope the bits she can't take will be fixed in discussion but to find something to share and geek out that does not ask too much of the younger person. Because the first is about the wishes of the older person, the second is centered around what's best for the child. And yes, I can't imagine a situation or a 13 year old where I'd say the very best thing right now is for her to read ASoIaF.

[willofDorne]

Exposing anyone underage of 18 to ASOIAF just reeks of bad parenting.

What happened to Harry Potter? And if your child reads ASOIAF and then is bored to tears reading Harry Potter or Shakespeare, what have you really accomplished? There's a huge mountain of classic literature, summer reading material suggested for all kids in high school. Great Gatsby, Lord of the Flies, etc. These are educational cornerstones people will respect.

There's been a lot of really well thought out posts here, but too many are downright disturbing.

[HexMachina]

Exposing anyone underage of 18 to ASOIAF just reeks of bad parenting.

What happened to Harry Potter? And if your child reads ASOIAF and then is bored to tears reading Harry Potter or Shakespeare, what have you really accomplished? There's a huge mountain of classic literature, summer reading material suggested for all kids in high school. Great Gatsby, Lord of the Flies, etc. These are educational cornerstones people will respect.

There's been a lot of really well thought out posts here, but too many are downright disturbing.

You really need to stop calling people bad parents for letting under 18's read aSoIaF. Its insulting to a huge number of people on the forums, and inaccurate to boot

[Illuminated by Fire]

We agree they vary widely. Yet only a very tiny, insignificant percentage of them will be as mature as the average 20 year old. (Of course, there are some, again a tiny, insignficant percentage of 20 year olds that are less mature than the average 13 year old.) The number of people believing their children are among that special percentage way above their peers is much larger than the number that actually are. And the chance, that an unknown 13 year old is among that tiny percentage is ... a tiny percentage, not what one should base one's recommendation on.

Partly it's simply a physical thing: for one adolescent brains still undergo considerable changes (e.g. http://www.nea.org/tools/16653.htm ; http://www.greatschools.org/parenting/health-nutrition/867-early-adolescence.gs) second the mental side of their sexual development is far from done.

First off, no. For one, the question will bring out people with a vested interest in defending their own choices that fail to consider the question independently from themselves. Second, the same would apply to "can my 13 year old be a child soldier?". There are certainly some for whom that worked out. "Can my very mature 13 year old watch hardcore pornography?" Again, that certainly worked out for some, but that fact in itself is meaningless to the general question and the reasonable response which is "hell, no!". Third, see above: "very mature 13 year old" is still a child.

Your second point, see below, if the interest is in the themes, there is most likely age appropriate material. More importantly, the OP says "My younger sister wants to start reading the series, as she's noticed how obsessed I am." No word about themes. See my previous post, it reads to my like a desire to share, to connect, not a genuine interest in mature fantasy. Check one page back Luthien Targaryen provided a long list of good fantasy stuff that is more age appropriate. On a page per page basis a 13 year old will get more out of those books.

That's dodging the question of whether the material is age appropriate. It isn't. Discussion and rereads are good, but that applies to Finnegans Wake as well. It is better in every way to expose children to themes (even the same themes) with age appropriate material they can get on the first read and where discussing the stuff with grown ups is optional and more motivated by a desire to share than by a need to understand or cope.

And the mature response to a child wanting to read the mature books oneself is enjoying is not to repeat to oneself "she can do it" and hope the bits she can't take will be fixed in discussion but to find something to share and geek out that does not ask too much of the younger person. Because the first is about the wishes of the older person, the second is centered around what's best for the child. And yes, I can't imagine a situation or a 13 year old where I'd say the very best thing right now is for her to read ASoIaF.

If something is age appropriate is a question that is relevant if you want to make a general commendation for a novel about which you can say: "You are a thirteen year old and want to read a book? What about this one?" That is obviously not a recommendation that anyone would give. But the differences between a 13 year old and an adult are not that fundamental that most points are not understandable. Sexual points may be one of them, but that is only one aspect of the series. Something not being age appropriate does not mean that no child of that age should ever read it, it just means that a majority should not do it. To the argument that there is other good material out there that deals with the themes ASoIaF deals with: Of course there is, and if she is interested in those themes it is definitely a recommendation. But reading is not about getting the most out of it on a page per pase basis. She may like other novels better or not, but that is not a reason to not give the series a try.

Regarding the second paragraph: It is not even remotely comparable because this are completely different things. My statement was clearly made in the context of reading novels, do not take it out of this context to make false comparisons. Being a child soldier is about harming other people and risking your own life and safety, not even remotely comparable. And I doubt very much that there are many meaningful themes to get out of hardcore pornography, it is solely for the purpose of arousing people who like that kind of thing, not in the least comparable. So, yes, it is indeed the only point that matters in the context of being able to read a book.

But admittedly, I made a few assumption I did not make clear in the first post, so let me narrow it down.

If a 13 year old is:

1. very mature for his/her age

2. is interested in the themes presented in the novel

3. is able to handle graphic descriptions of violence

Then and only then it is perfectly fine for them to read the books. I assumed in the last post that the OP did explain her sister what the series is about and which themes are brought up before coming to the forum and asking the question. She hopefully did not just go here and asked after her sister expressed interest just because the OP herself was reading the books

[No Song so Sweet]

Very few GRRM sex scenes are meant to be arousing.

Some of them are, which is even worse for a teen to read.

[Cold Crashing Waves]

How is that worse? Most teens are already jacking off to porn anyway. So many of you have your heads buried in the sand regarding what kids these days do.

[ChillyPolly]

How is that worse? Most teens are already jacking off to porn anyway. So many of you have your heads buried in the sand regarding what kids these days do.

Lots of kids are having unprotected sex. Some are having unprotected sex with close relatives. Some kids are even raping each other. What follows from that?

There is a huge leap between acknowledging that many - or even most depending on how you define it - 13 year olds have been exposed to porn, and recommending that we specifically recommend and encourage the reading of explicit and degrading sexual material.

[Cold Crashing Waves]

Ahahaha.

[The Second To Last Dragon]

13 is acceptable,

it is known.

[The Second To Last Dragon]

And, of course, you turned out wonderfully, in every possible way.

just what we need on the forums,

another pretentious slag.

[Veltigar]

I started reading ASOIAF when I was about 14 years old, many years ago. I have turned out rather well, in fact I have only been to prison once.

... on a fieldtrip in college