Videogames: Ultimate Evil Edition

[Kalbear]

I'm saying judging a crowd by what video games they play is incredibly stupid.

And you've still not indicated precisely why this is the case. I understand that you're making that claim, but you've not made any actual rational discussion about why that is. What makes judging someone on the videogames they play different than what music they like? Or what movies they really enjoy? Or what books they like? It doesn't mean that they are solely defined by that cultural or social aspect, but it certainly implies they like it and aren't bothered by it. If you played GTA as a kid a whole lot chances are the sexism in that game doesn't bother you at all. The misogyny in the game didn't really bother you. It's possible that's not the case, but it's likely that it is the case.

And if there is a mission like that, what makes it be sexist?

I didn't say it was. You said there do not exist missions that force you to kill a bunch of randoms. That's not true. That's all there is to that statement.

What makes it sexist are the sexist terms, the lack of female protagonists, the chauvinism, the lack of male strippers, the lack of male prostitutes, the treating women as sex objects in the artwork and the game design.

[Kalbear]

Umm, not so sure about that...

http://www.popcrunch.com/the-15-nuttiest-celebrity-stalkers-of-all-time/

And that's a fairly limited sample. Remember Rebecca Schaefer?

http://www.findadeath.com/Deceased/s/Rebecca%20Schaeffer/rebecca_schaeffer.htm

Not quite the same thing, is it? For starters we're not treating the people stalking Anita Sarkeesian as crazy people; there are so many of them that it'd be hard to. Nor is she being stalked and threatened for being pretty or the object of someone's fantasy. She's being threatened because her opinions about games bother people. A closer comparison would be antiabortionists threatening abortion doctors with death threats, or religious zealots threatening others with death threats. Which is fine, except, ya know, she's talking about things like Tomb Raider.

[eyenon15]

Hahahaha lack of male strippers ???! What the fuk???!

It's a sim game! No it doesn't go 100% by the laws of physics but it's based on a certain reality.

I don't know where you are from but everywhere I've been in the real world the female strip clubs outnumber male strip clubs at about a 100:1 ratio. Same with crime, it's a game about crime, men go to jail and dominate real world crime. Men are about 9 times more likely to go to prison than women in America. It doesn't mean a game is sexist for not turning it into a complete fantasy.

[Gears of the Beast]

Not quite the same thing, is it? For starters we're not treating the people stalking Anita Sarkeesian as crazy people; there are so many of them that it'd be hard to. Nor is she being stalked and threatened for being pretty or the object of someone's fantasy. She's being threatened because her opinions about games bother people. A closer comparison would be antiabortionists threatening abortion doctors with death threats, or religious zealots threatening others with death threats. Which is fine, except, ya know, she's talking about things like Tomb Raider.

I don't think that's an accurate comparison at all. For one; anti-choice zealots legitimately have killed people, they're crazy ideologues and actually pose a legitimate threat. Whereas I don't actually recall the last time some gamers got together and murdered someone they don't agree with, this is just a few pissed off internet trolls. It's way more analogous to when Jack Thompson got death threats for campaigning against video games because of their violent effect on society. Strange, I don't recall SJWs bravely standing with Jack Thompson against the scourge of violent video game activists...

When you receive legitimate death threats you go to the FBI, you don't go to twitter to post about it and ask for donations.

[Kalbear]

Men are about 9 times more likely to go to prison than women in America.

This does not mean men commit 9 times as many crimes as women. Just FYI.

I don't know where you are from but everywhere I've been in the real world the female strip clubs outnumber male strip clubs at about a 100:1 ratio.

The ratio is about 3 to 1 in favor of women. This is precisely the kind of information that is amusing to me to see. You see GTA as a certain 'reality'. Because you enjoy it, you filter out the parts of reality that don't conform to your expectations. That doesn't make it actually reality.

[Clueless Northman]

Why are they on the fringes of the gamer community and not the film community?

Depends if we should consider the guys who leaked all these nude pics as the fringe of the film community or not. I'd be tempted to put them there, personally, since they obsessed and fantasized about these women because of movies. Still not death threats though. And that case was dealt with way faster than the death threats and hacks that occurred with A.S. and the whole Quinn mess (or it's just that we never get any news about what the cops and justice find in these cases of online mayhem, which would be a mistake imho, since having jerks who send death threats shipped to a court might be a big of a deterrent for future scumbag).

imagine playing someone who wants to get away with murder. The murder might be a crime of passion or something along the lines. You're having to cover up evidence and make sure your tracks are cool, play it cool with interviews and arrests, that sort of thing. It's odd that the psychological thriller is not particularly represented in video games.

There are some missions in some games that deal with this, but indeed, not that common. I suppose it's partly because it's far easier to just put people to shoot down - less work, less plot to work on and the like. Laziness isn't just an issue for sexist tropes - though this obviously is a good point for A.S. -, it's quite a global issue with games - not global in that all games suffer from it, but it can be found in every part where you can afford to be sloppy.

As for"driving and shooting shit", I've come to the conclusion that I've driven far more in video games (though mostly racing ones in the 90s and early 2000s) than in real life, and I'm definitely better at it on a computer. Of course, when it comes to shooting, there's never been a contest.

[RumHam]

Hahahaha lack of male strippers ???! What the fuk???!

It's a sim game!

In a lot of ways it's a sim game, yes. But it's also a satire, just about everything is "turned up to 11." Including the misogyny.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Not quite the same thing, is it? For starters we're not treating the people stalking Anita Sarkeesian as crazy people; there are so many of them that it'd be hard to. Nor is she being stalked and threatened for being pretty or the object of someone's fantasy. She's being threatened because her opinions about games bother people. A closer comparison would be antiabortionists threatening abortion doctors with death threats, or religious zealots threatening others with death threats. Which is fine, except, ya know, she's talking about things like Tomb Raider.

No, there's no comparing online threats or DDoS attacks to having someone actually showing up at your door and stabbing you in the face. Are you farking kidding?

[Kalbear]

For one; anti-choice zealots legitimately have killed people, they're crazy ideologues and actually pose a legitimate threat. Whereas I don't actually recall the last time some gamers got together and murdered someone they don't agree with, this is just a few pissed off internet trolls.

Depends on how you want to classify things like Columbine, I suppose.

While I don't have any specific articles on gamers killing people, I do know that at various times SWAT teams have been called in against other gamers (this also happened to one of the Creatures recently too), gamers have posted personal information and nudes about their girlfriends, and then there's the stalking happening to Sarkeesian (who did, by the way, contact the various police agencies).

Strange, I don't recall SJWs bravely standing with Jack Thompson against the scourge of violent video game activists

Ah, you're one of the MRA folks. It's shocking to think that someone who loves playing GTA would be a male rights activist too!

[eyenon15]

This does not mean men commit 9 times as many crimes as women. Just FYI.

It's enough data for a crime game not to be sexist for not having a female lead character.

Oh and I suppose Tomb Raider is also sexist for not having a male lead?

The ratio is about 3 to 1 in favor of women. This is precisely the kind of information that is amusing to me to see. You see GTA as a certain 'reality'. Because you enjoy it, you filter out the parts of reality that don't conform to your expectations. That doesn't make it actually reality.

Sources please.

[Hutch]

If you came back and said "I love GTA V and it doesn't remotely cater to my worldview, because I"m a gay woman who hates cars" that'd be one thing. As it stands, you sound like just another 20something white male with no real knowledge of anything outside of your very narrow world. Please, prove me wrong. Shouldn't be that hard. '.

Please tell me that I'm reading this wrong. Are you saying that if you enjoy GTA, but aren't a gay woman, then you're a misogynist?

As to your statement about judging people based on the games they play, music they listen too, movies they watch, etc., what's the point. I play GTA and Dragon Age. I listen to metal and classical, and I read Shakespeare and Louis Lamour, and all things in between. What kind of person does that make me? It honestly just sounds like your an extremely judgmental person with an axe to grind about all things YOU dislike.

[Kalbear]

No, there's no comparing online threats or DDoS attacks to having someone actually showing up at your door and stabbing you in the face. Are you farking kidding?

You do realize that at least in Sarkeesian's case people have shown up at her door, right? There's a reason she had to leave her home.

And it's not just DDoS. It's posting publicly where people live, their SSN, their private photos. It's telling people where they work and what their schedule is on a day to day basis. Or telling people where their family goes to school. These aren't just doing it for the lolz.

[Gears of the Beast]

Depends on how you want to classify things like Columbine, I suppose.

While I don't have any specific articles on gamers killing people, I do know that at various times SWAT teams have been called in against other gamers (this also happened to one of the Creatures recently too), gamers have posted personal information and nudes about their girlfriends, and then there's the stalking happening to Sarkeesian (who did, by the way, contact the various police agencies).

Sure gamers play dumb pranks, so do other people. Revenge porn has no correlation to gaming whatsoever, some gamers may do it but it has nothing to do with the fact that they're gamers. Gaming is not some small subset of society, the gaming industry is larger than the film industry yet no-one categorizes dumb things people do who watch movies as symptomatic of the film watching community.

And I have no idea why you even brought up Columbine.

you're one of the MRA folks. It's shocking to think that someone who loves playing GTA would be a male rights activist too!

I'm not an MRA and I don't love playing GTA, I don't even like GTA; I think it's a shitty game.

[Kalbear]

It's enough data for a crime game not to be sexist for not having a female lead character.

Oh and I suppose Tomb Raider is also sexist for not having a male lead?

Sources please.

Tomb Raider is a bit sexist, though not for the reason you think. It's because it has an attempted rape as a minigame.

As to sources on strip club frequency and stripper frequency, here ya go.

Please tell me that I'm reading this wrong. Are you saying that if you enjoy GTA, but aren't a gay woman, then you're a misogynist?

You're reading me wrong; I said that that would be one way to easily prove me wrong. There are plenty others.

As to your statement about judging people based on the games they play, music they listen too, movies they watch, etc., what's the point. I play GTA and Dragon Age. I listen to metal and classical, and I read Shakespeare and Louis Lamour, and all things in between. What kind of person does that make me? It honestly just sounds like your an extremely judgmental person with an axe to grind about all things YOU dislike.

The point is that it's a reasonable thing to do. We do it all the time. We judge people based on what sports they like, what movies they watch, what their hobbies are. I don't know what kind of a person it makes you specifically.

My main point is that if you can't see the sexism in GTA - or more accurately, if you think that it is realistic, that makes you a misogynist. If that's not you, awesome! Enjoy your Apocalyptica while reading the Quick and the Dead.

[Gears of the Beast]

My main point is that if you can't see the sexism in GTA - or more accurately, if you think that it is realistic, that makes you a misogynist. If that's not you, awesome! Enjoy your Apocalyptica while reading the Quick and the Dead.

"If you don't agree with me, you hate women"

[Cold Crashing Waves]

:lol:

[Kalbear]

Sorry, I mistook you for Cold Crashing Waves. similar avatars. My bad.

Sure gamers play dumb pranks, so do other people

Calling a SWAT team isn't a dumb prank. Given how deadly SWAT encounters are and how expensive it is, that's not a dumb prank. Posting nudes of people online often costs people their jobs. This is the 'no true scotsman' argument - oh, they weren't real gamers!

the gaming industry is larger than the film industry yet no-one categorizes dumb things people do who watch movies as symptomatic of the film watching community.

That's probably because it's much less common. We do publicize stalkers as being a known risk of a public personality. For gamers, we have much more causal co tonnection. We know the guy who called the SWAT team did so because he lost at CoD. We know the guy who posted shots of his girlfriend did so because she screwed up in LoL. We know that the reason Sarkeesian is getting death threats is because she is talking about games. These things are directly associated with games. That the online community is beyond toxic, that playing with a mic on is going to be some insanely vitriolic swearing, that there is pushback on people who are taking the point that it is a Bad Thing to issue death threats to anyone as "oh no, a SJW" and proceed to attack those people as well - thats' the gaming culture.

It might not be representative of who you are or even a majority of people - but they're certainly out there.

[Gears of the Beast]

Tomb Raider is a bit sexist, though not for the reason you think. It's because it has an attempted rape as a minigame.

As to sources on strip club frequency and stripper frequency, here ya go.

That says "Most strippers are female, with less than a third of strippers being male strippers." less than a third ≠ a third. Also the source is just some survey on societal reaction to female and male strippers and doesn't seem to say that anywhere.

[eyenon15]

Tomb Raider is a bit sexist, though not for the reason you think. It's because it has an attempted rape as a minigame.

As to sources on strip club frequency and stripper frequency, here ya go.

You're reading me wrong; I said that that would be one way to easily prove me wrong. There are plenty others.

The point is that it's a reasonable thing to do. We do it all the time. We judge people based on what sports they like, what movies they watch, what their hobbies are. I don't know what kind of a person it makes you specifically.

My main point is that if you can't see the sexism in GTA - or more accurately, if you think that it is realistic, that makes you a misogynist. If that's not you, awesome! Enjoy your Apocalyptica while reading the Quick and the Dead.

You cited a study that surveyed a whopping 56 strippers. You have to do better than that.

Funny a male lead in a game is enough for you to deem it sexist. Yet a game with a female lead isn't sexist for the same reason.

Unbelievable the shit you are throwing around today.

[Hutch]

We do it all the time. We judge people based on what sports they like, what movies they watch, what their hobbies are. I don't know what kind of a person it makes you specifically.

My main point is that if you can't see the sexism in GTA - or more accurately, if you think that it is realistic, that makes you a misogynist. If that's not you, awesome! Enjoy your Apocalyptica while reading the Quick and the Dead.

Maybe that's how you judge people. I learned long ago that a persons interests don't define who they are. Judging someone solely on what sports they like is an extremely close minded view. But clearly you're as judgmental as you are condescending, so enjoy demonizing all things you disagree with.