Videogames: Ultimate Evil Edition

[Clueless Northman]

Debate has been mostly focused on GTA when speaking of games.

I assume that it's not GTA as such that is targetted as a specifically despicable game that should be changed, but rather as an example (maybe the most obvious and egregious one) of stuff we find in (many) other games - usually to a lesser extent. Which probably isn't something that has been well explained (by those who criticize it) or well understood (by GTA fans).

Imho, the main issue is when that shit appears too often in too many games - or, more exactly, when it comes globally to often, when the proportion of games, and of very successful games, is too big. Having a few games with abuses and very dubious content can't really be avoided, and they shouldn't be banned in a free society; having a lot of games like that, on the other hand, might indeed be a serious issue.

From what I understand of Sarkeesian's endeavour and aims, she wants to show and illustrate the vast share of games with sexist content, rather than to denounce every single one of them as heretic to be rooted out.

Bottom-line being that GTA could be a problem, but imho, it's not fixing GTA as such and getting rid of this specific game series that should be the goal, it's to reduce the global share of games displaying these issues - not fully extinguish them by any means necessary.

I don't doubt there are people who'd like it, but that can't be forced, unless by totalitarian means, just like you can't get rid of all creationists or of people who think abortions are evil; there are things we may wish to see disappear, but ultimately, if we want to keep our freedoms and remain the good guys, there are limits to what we can do.

The simple fact is you can't find equivalent behaviour in other fandoms. It's not a product of just having fans, it's just not normal, cause if it was you'd see it in other mediums. But you don't. Cause it's a product of a specific culture that exists around the video gaming medium.

To an extent, but I've also the feeling that internet itself is half the cause, because many people behave a bit differently online - basically are let loose. This definitely isn't limited to video games, though things can go a bit farther there. For instance, /b/ isn't exactly about video games. There's a lot of harassment and threats going on online, and they're definitely not limited to video games, though that might be where they're the most frequent. Yet even outside video games, the level of shittiness and harassment is far higher than in real life. Heck, there are some heated debates about the adaptations and other ASOIAF-related issues going on here which go way farther than anything you'd find offline - and then there are political "discussions".

I tend to think that things are probably a bit more tense with a sizable chunk of gamers than with the average person, but internet making things tenser, often less obvious and subtle, and at times crappier, what we see is the sum of two distinct tendencies who both exacerbate issues / discussions on their own.

[MerenthaClone]

Ugh I hate this discussion. Kal, you're a goddamned saint. No, being a "gamer" doesn't automatically make you sexist. Are a shitton of games sexist? Yes. Are a shitton of gamers? Also yes.

[Rhom]

I just thought it was understood that humanity as a whole is pretty shitty when you stick them behind the anonymity of a keyboard? Honestly, do you read the comments on YouTube videos? Hell, for that matter the comments on I Fucking Love Science's FB posts are pretty vile. Even going to a more mainstream site like NBC.com and reading the comments on a story can really strike a blow to your faith in humanity.

Gaming has a bad element. Maybe it's worse than others, maybe it isn't... But does it make it any less bad if you find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy somewhere?

I think most of us here probably try to find more moderate online communities when possible. My old WoW guild did a pretty good job of screening applicants, but even so there was the occasional shocked newcomer who couldn't understand why I kicked him for dropping the N word in gchat.

I don't think you can change gaming culture any more than you can change human culture. The best we can do is deal with it like we do in the real world, stay away from the seedy places where the worst of it congregates and try our best not to contribute personally to the problem.

[Cold Crashing Waves]

GTA makes fun of everyone and is purposefully politically incorrect in almost every way. If you're offended by it you're falling into the trap. If you just stepped back for a second, left your sensitivities at the door and looked at it objectively you might understand what Rockstar is doing with it, humor wise.

[Inigima]

How could we have been so blind? You're right, the problem is that we simply don't understand the visionary genius of the auteurs behind "The Ballad of Gay Tony."

[Cold Crashing Waves]

Yes. The fact that you immediately went after TBOGT because of its provocative title shows you really don't get it.

Not to pretend GTA is some high art masterpiece it isn't, it's a damn game, but there is a big parodical/ironic side to it that just goes over a lot of peoples' heads for whatever reason. I'd imagine a lot of those people didn't get what South Park was doing, either.

[eyenon15]

Lol tell me you are joking...

It's actually a mix of Scarface and Carlitos way with some other crime movies thrown in.

Sean Penn plays the same character in GTA and Carlitos Way.

[Kalbear]

Not to pretend GTA is some high art masterpiece it isn't, it's a damn game, but there is a big parodical/ironic side to it that just goes over a lot of peoples' heads for whatever reason. I'd imagine a lot of those people didn't get what South Park was doing, either.

That's all true and I acknowledged it. At the same time, it's still sexist. It's deliberately, purposely sexist - but it is still sexist. Something can be racist AND a parody. Something can be sexist AND a parody.

[Kalbear]

The best we can do is deal with it like we do in the real world, stay away from the seedy places where the worst of it congregates and try our best not to contribute personally to the problem.

No. We can do better.

We can speak up when we see bullshit. We can speak up when we see people saying things like the N word in chat or when we see people joking about stalking women. We can tell them that this is unacceptable. We can choose to make sure they understand that this will not be tolerated and then not tolerate it.

Part of the reason that this culture fosters among gamers and not among other areas of life nearly as much is because people simply let it go too often.

[Shryke]

To an extent, but I've also the feeling that internet itself is half the cause, because many people behave a bit differently online - basically are let loose. This definitely isn't limited to video games, though things can go a bit farther there. For instance, /b/ isn't exactly about video games. There's a lot of harassment and threats going on online, and they're definitely not limited to video games, though that might be where they're the most frequent. Yet even outside video games, the level of shittiness and harassment is far higher than in real life. Heck, there are some heated debates about the adaptations and other ASOIAF-related issues going on here which go way farther than anything you'd find offline - and then there are political "discussions".

I tend to think that things are probably a bit more tense with a sizable chunk of gamers than with the average person, but internet making things tenser, often less obvious and subtle, and at times crappier, what we see is the sum of two distinct tendencies who both exacerbate issues / discussions on their own.

I agree. That's sorta the whole point. It's not that gaming itself, the activity of playing video games, has an inherent problem or anything, it's that the gaming community overlaps heavily with other communities with serious fucking issues. And that needs to be dealt with.

[Cold Crashing Waves]

That's all true and I acknowledged it. At the same time, it's still sexist. It's deliberately, purposely sexist - but it is still sexist. Something can be racist AND a parody. Something can be sexist AND a parody.

Sure, but with it's sexism/racism/classism and whatever else, it's making a point. It's a commentary on the shallowness of modern culture.

At the end of San Andreas you shouldn't be thinking 'fuck yeah, hardcore south central gangster, gonna pop these motherfuckers like it ain't no thing' Every character is like "Damn, this life sucks! We gotta get the fuck outta here!"

[Shryke]

I just thought it was understood that humanity as a whole is pretty shitty when you stick them behind the anonymity of a keyboard?

Facebook proves this has nothing to do with anonymity. It's party the physical distance and partly just the culture. Cause you will see shitty fucking behaviour in person to.

I don't think you can change gaming culture any more than you can change human culture. The best we can do is deal with it like we do in the real world, stay away from the seedy places where the worst of it congregates and try our best not to contribute personally to the problem.

Except you can change human culture. We've done it before, we'll do it again and we are doing it right now in so many ways.

[eyenon15]

And we can speak up when someone falsely accuses people of causing real life violence. We can tell them it's completely UNACCEPTABLE.

And wHen we see them sling bulllshit and lies about people who play games or a certain game, we can tell them it is UNACCEPTABLE.

When we see someone on a soapbox preaching and pointing fingers at everyone else like a pretentious self deluded hero we can tell them it is UNACCEPTABLE.

Then when they again try to accuse us of causing violence and harassment we can tell them it is UNACCEPTABLE.

And it will not be tolerated.

[Kalbear]

Well, I would say that gta was trying to make a point. I think they do it well in some cases (usually around the material wealth part) and pretty poorly in others (too many men think that "using a woman as a urinal" is proscriptive).

Eyenon, what you said was unacceptable. It is a shame you can't realize that your joke wasn't and will never be acceptable. Joking about stalking someone when we are talking about real people actually getting stalked is not acceptable. Ever. It shows a massive lack of empathy, poor taste and judgment. It shows that you believe this to be a way to express your liking of something. Neither are good.

[Lyanna Stark]

Sure, but with it's sexism/racism/classism and whatever else, it's making a point. It's a commentary on the shallowness of modern culture.

At the end of San Andreas you shouldn't be thinking 'fuck yeah, hardcore south central gangster, gonna pop these motherfuckers like it ain't no thing' Every character is like "Damn, this life sucks! We gotta get the fuck outta here!"

And then you take out your rocket launcher and blow up a bus filled with hookers cause fuck it it's a video game and shouldn't be taken that seriously.

I'm not sure that's really what everyone takes away from GTA, or any other game where women are furniture and you're encouraged towards exploitative behaviour. Sure, some games are better than others and go to great lengths to at least attempt to be inclusive. A lot of MMOs at least have female avatars you can play which are similar to the male avatars, but then you have games like "Assassin's Creed" where they just couldn't be bothered with a female model because reasons.

Also, as for your last sentence, I find that sort of behaviour to not always be just "shouldn't be taken seriously". Sometimes it is, and sometimes it really isn't. What you do in one game may mean nothing, but as a larger aggregate and over time, it is probably not a good thing to find pleasure in exploding buses filled with hookers. It is dehumanising.

I think most of us here probably try to find more moderate online communities when possible. My old WoW guild did a pretty good job of screening applicants, but even so there was the occasional shocked newcomer who couldn't understand why I kicked him for dropping the N word in gchat.

I don't think you can change gaming culture any more than you can change human culture. The best we can do is deal with it like we do in the real world, stay away from the seedy places where the worst of it congregates and try our best not to contribute personally to the problem.

Yep, we had similar issues with people recruited to the MMO guilds. Most of the time you could screen out the real plonkers, but occasionally you'll get someone who really couldn't avoid spewing racist, homophobic, misogynist bile. Pointing out that it is not OK is a good starting point, but as you say, sometimes booting these people is the only way.

We had the most issues with homophobia actually, but maybe that was just "luck of the draw" as it were. Or maybe that is more accepted than racism, at least. Misogyny seems to fall somewhere inbetween, a bit depending on how serious it is.

Anyways, release date some time in November. I for one welcome the extreme RetCon and being able to once again wipe in Auchindon.

[Guy Kilmore]

I enjoy GTA and other videogames. I love setting my car on fire and jumping off of high buildings with it what can I say? But, it is sexist, homophobic and racist. They claim an attempt at Satire and I, like others in this thread, hit some points. The failing is that they don't include other people in that joke. I do find it jarring. As I have said early in this thread my wife is probably a bigger gamer than I, but she does feel alienated. (She doesn't come out and say she is alienated, but it feels weird when I pop in GTA and there is that Trevor mission that takes you to the strip club and she asks about the dudes strip club and I tell her there isn't one. She isn't really welcomed to play the game.)

Also, eyenon, it is human nature to say stupid things and to make stupid jokes. I have done it and will do it again. It is ok to apologize and move on. When we make comments that are bigoted they become part of the tapestry that we really need to pull down. I find when I do it. I apologize, move on and resolve to be a better person.

[Inigima]

By the by, not one but two more people, Jenn Frank and Mattie Brice, quit the industry last night in response to the misogyny and harassment they've experienced. So, you know, thanks for that, assholes.

[Guy Kilmore]

That is sad. Art forms and activities can only be improved when multiple perspectives are involved.

[Inigima]

FWIW, the goal here is to get people to be more thoughtful about what they do and say, not to yell at people. It's just that's often the only way to get through to people. I used to be much shittier about this stuff and I try to do better now. I spent a lot of time reading stuff other people complained about, and said to myself "Hey, I do that, I can see why that's bad, I should stop doing that."

I think it's important to speak up about this stuff lest silence be taken as tacit acknowledgment that the behavior is okay.

[Clueless Northman]

What you do in one game may mean nothing, but as a larger aggregate and over time, it is probably not a good thing to find pleasure in exploding buses filled with hookers. It is dehumanising.

Could be, or could not; I'm not totally sure and it might strongly depend on the person, I suppose.

Makes me kind of want to try that GTA one day, by sheer curiosity, as a kind of social experience as much as a gaming one, considering how I tend to play.

I've got no problem wiping out peasants, men and women, in Age of Kings/Empires, but they're kind of enemies and at times you don't even have a choice; like I don't hesitate to wipe out enemy SCVs in Starcraft. On the other hand, when people are clearly civilians and neutral, I spare them; heck, back in the days where I played Syndicate, I avoided killing civilians and was slightly annoyed when one stupidly ran in the middle of a gunfight - the ones who were mind-controlled of course had become foot-soldiers of other gangs, which sealed their fate. In fact, I was a bit baffled when I saw people wiping out whole towns in Morrowind, Baldur's Gate, Avernum and other RPGs, because that didn't even cross my mind - though I kind of saw you could do it... I have some difficulty going 100% evil (usually replay, 1st playthrough being neutral-good) in games like Baldur's Gate and Mass Effect, even if I can go pretty far. No need to say that shooting Samuel at the end of Dishonored didn't even cross my mind and I was quite surprised when I saw a video where the guy tried it "because full Chaos" (ok full disclosure, I tried to kill the Admiral mid-game, after saving, because there always was that "backstab" icon appearing, even though I was dealing with guys on my side - it had made me nervous and edgy for some time actually because I feared the results of a misclick).

So, all in all, that makes me a bit curious to see exactly what the missions order you to do in GTA, who seem or are designed as some kind of enemy - considering my basic tendency to avoir hurting too much the bystanders, innocents, neutrals and civilians.

As for GTA being satire, I've had the (from the outside) impression Saints Row went full satire, while GTA was at times satire and perversion of tropes, but was quite half-serious about it at the same time.