Why do people believe in alternative medicine?

[Galactus]

Either way, history has shown that 'cures' for many types of illnesses were known and used long before modern medicine

Well, yes. They also used stuff that was either innefficient or outright harmful, the problem is that apart from trial and error (and lacking statistical tools, even that tended to be problematic) there's no way of distinguishing one from the other without scientific backing.

There's a reason the cancer industry is a $10 billion per year industry and it isn't because they are curing people.

It's because cancer is a tricky disease, that isn't always curable, and often only somewhat treatable. (and that's not getting into the entire "Cancer isn't really a single disease" kind of semantics)

erbs for general health and preventative measures, and real medicine to treat illnesses and symptoms that actually manifest

A) Lots of "actual medecine" uses herbs, or chemicals derived from herbs, or synthezised chemicals that are also found in herbs.

B) The problem with "herbal medecine" tends to be dosage: Quite simply, in plants the amount of active ingredients tends to vary for all sorts of reasons (dpeneding on how the plant grew, the amount of nutrients it got, the genetics of the individual plant, etc.) this means that a similar herb can either contain virtually noa ctive ingredient whatsoever, or several times the recommended dosage, and there's pretty much no way of knowing this save extracting the active ingredient somehow (which is largely what scientific medecine does when it uses herbal-derived ingredients, precisely for that reason)

Most medication is dangerous if the dosage is incorrect: Thousands of people every year die from overdoses of medical preparations. And that's from properly supervised, controlled for dosage, with proper descriptions of how uch to take etc. medecine, now consider that there is practically no way of making correct dosage for herbal supplements and you start to understand why it's an issue. (two different herbal supplements can literally be either innefficient or cause an overdose simply because of variations in the plant used)

Also, many preparations have side-effects: IN the case of scientific medecine these tends to be rigoriously tested for (which does not in any way make them foolproof!) this is often not the case for herbal supplements, even when side effects and/or effects of overdoses can be significant.

There's also the fact that someone using a herbal supplement might think they're getting better (due to placebo effect, or some actual effect of the herbal supplement) but not actually doing so, and so ignoring important symptoms that could have lead to successful treatments.

To sum up (from rationalwiki):

Many herbal remedies have significant medical effects. Labeling may not correctly describe the contents of the medication. The preparations available are not well-regulated or well-studied. As such, they are often wasteful, or even toxic. When there is a measurable effect, it is often more modest than the available conventional medicines.^[32] Many companies are doing large scale testing of botanicals to look for biologically active substances. Older remedies, and new ones, as discovered, should be subject to the same scrutiny as any other medication. There is no reason to believe that herbal remedies have any "natural" advantage over conventional ones. Randomized controlled trials can distinguish good medicines from bad, independent of the source.

[Galactus]

There's a dearth of "real" evidence for the efficacy of herbal remedies because no one is funding clinical trials. If you spend millions proving that Ashwagandha treats depression more reliably than SSRIs, there's nothing to stop any other company from capitalizing on your research by simply packaging and selling the natural botanical. You can't patent the plant to protect your investment in research.

(I am pretty skeptical of homeopathic medicine, which you mention. There's little reason to think that botanicals can't be effective, though, as most pharmaceuticals are just isolates of active chemicals found in rainforest botanicals)

That's precisely the point though. Companies do trials of botanicals all the time. Then they synthesize it in properly dosaged amounts and call it say, aspirin.

[Galactus]

A lot of "actual medicine" have many side effects that are not widely publicised. For example, paracetamol, a common pain killer and fever reducer, can damage the liver. It also stays in your liver for up to 3 months, long after taking it. It takes the body so long to get rid of it. And I used to pop it every after week as it's so convenient and it works for headaches. I changed my methods to stop triggering the pain and using other methods like using cold pack rather than to wait for it to happen and then pop a pill. I'd rather avoid accumulating drugs in my body.

One more thing is that such drugs often only treats the symptoms, they don't solve the root of the problem. They only help temporarily. So it makes sense to go deeper and seek alternative methods.

That IS widely publicized. It actually tends to say so right on the packaging, in capital letters and bold font, and dosage is limited precisely for that reason. (now, many people don't follow the dosage regulations, but that's hardly the fault of the medical providers)

[aceluby]

I've always like the bit in Tim Minchin's storm. Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U:

Can't say I've ever really had to try "alternative" medicine - so can't pass judgement on its effectiveness, but I'd rather put my eggs in the "science basket".

And with regards to the profit comments on the pharmaceutical industry - you're right. But the alternative medicine market is huuuuuge.

Except that those who control what is or is not 'medicine' are constrained by laws, lobbyists, big corporations, and politicians. To think that 'science' always wins when it comes to medicine is extremely naïve IMO. That's a big problem IMO.

BTW, I just looked it up and while the alternative medicine revenue stream is around $35 billion, just the cancer industry alone is almost $100 billion per year (my other number was from memory...). That's just one slice of the medical industry. To say it's 'huuuuuge' when comparing to the medical industry as a whole is laughable.

[Galactus]

Except that those who control what is or is not 'medicine' are constrained by laws, lobbyists, big corporations, and politicians. To think that 'science' always wins when it comes to medicine is extremely naïve IMO. That's a big problem IMO.

BTW, I just looked it up and while the alternative medicine revenue stream is around $35 billion, just the cancer industry alone is almost $100 billion per year (my other number was from memory...). That's just one slice of the medical industry. To say it's 'huuuuuge' when comparing to the medical industry as a whole is laughable.

Except that medical research is also done by government laboratories, universities, etc. The charge that "alternative" somehow means "less profit-driven" is insane.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Because depending of the situation, it works. Also, it's cheaper. "Culantro" tea is good for menstrual cramps, it has been used for decades here, and it works. Only 0.50. An actual pill is around 1.20. The same for oregano or eucalyptus. It's good for cough in children, when it's a soft cough. I've heard that boiling banana peels also works for asthma, although I haven't tried that myself but it would be good giving it a chance one day.

When you have more chronic diseases, sometimes it's a desperate attempt. My father had heart problems, also diabetes, gout and kidney failure. He always drank, ate and smoked too much. At his 60, when all of that started to fail at the same time, he JUST started to eat well and taking herbal medicines that are mostly preventive. Of course, none work. But the same treatments in younger and healthier people, I've seen them work well. For example, there is a small herb that a doctor recommended to my uncle, also a doctor, for his diabetes. For what I've heard, it is working.

[Galactus]

Because depending of the situation, it works. Also, it's cheaper. "Culantro" tea is good for menstrual cramps, it has been used for decades here, and it works.

Got any decent studies that show it's more than placebo? (It's entirely possible it works, but especially with stuff like pain and cramps, the placebo effect is especially notable)

When you have more chronic diseases, sometimes it's a desperate attempt. My father had heart problems, also diabetes, gout and kidney failure. He always drank, ate and smoked too much. At his 60, when all of that started to fail at the same time, he JUST started to eat well and taking herbal medicines that are mostly preventive. Of course, none work. But the same treatments in younger and healthier people, I've seen them work well. For example, there is a small herb that a doctor recommended to my uncle, also a doctor, for his diabetes. For what I've heard, it is working.

Again, that's just not how things work. Someone took herbs, and got better. Well, people get better for all sorts of reasons. (often with no intervention whatsoever) but because someone once lost a wart after painting it with turpentine it's suddenly a cure.

[Lee]

Except that those who control what is or is not 'medicine' are constrained by laws, lobbyists, big corporations, and politicians. To think that 'science' always wins when it comes to medicine is extremely naïve IMO. That's a big problem IMO.

BTW, I just looked it up and while the alternative medicine revenue stream is around $35 billion, just the cancer industry alone is almost $100 billion per year (my other number was from memory...). That's just one slice of the medical industry. To say it's 'huuuuuge' when comparing to the medical industry as a whole is laughable.

$35 Billion a year isn't exactly pocket change.

And how is it naive to think that science always wins? If it could be proven to work it would be science. If diluting a small amount of something into a large amount of water could be proven (in multiple double blind placebo based studies), to cure something then yeah, fine. Until then it's conjecture at best, dangerous at worst.

[aceluby]

Except that medical research is also done by government laboratories, universities, etc. The charge that "alternative" somehow means "less profit-driven" is insane.

Some is, I don't deny that, and those who want to give their money to the snake oil salesman for either alternative or regular medicine is their own decision. But it's nowhere near the same scale and a lot of alternative medicine is about diet control, which obviously is less profit-driven.

Got any decent studies that show it's more than placebo? (It's entirely possible it works, but especially with stuff like pain and cramps, the placebo effect is especially notable)

Again, that's just not how things work. Someone took herbs, and got better. Well, people get better for all sorts of reasons. (often with no intervention whatsoever) but because someone once lost a wart after painting it with turpentine it's suddenly a cure.

Why would this study happen in the first place? That's part of the issue, if the study does happen and proves it works, anybody can bottle it up and make money off of it. Whereas if they can synthesize a similar drug and call it 'crampera', they can now patent it and make billions. Money is a HUGE motivator in all of this.

[MerenthaClone]

Why would this study happen in the first place? That's part of the issue, if the study does happen and proves it works, anybody can bottle it up and make money off of it. Whereas if they can synthesize a similar drug and call it 'crampera', they can now patent it and make billions. Money is a HUGE motivator in all of this.

And yet, most people buy aspirin instead of walking out to the nearest willow and hacking off a chunk of bark for tea.

[Galactus]

But it's nowhere near the same scale and a lot of alternative medicine is about diet control, which obviously is less profit-driven.

Why on earth would it be less profit-driven?

Why would this study happen in the first place? That's part of the issue, if the study does happen and proves it works, anybody can bottle it up and make money off of it. Whereas if they can synthesize a similar drug and call it 'crampera', they can now patent it and make billions. Money is a HUGE motivator in all of this.

This is actually the perfect description why alternative medecine is a scam: They don't have to shell out money to make a study, but they can still market it as "alternative medecine" and sell it. (possibly even patenting it) without having to go through the actual work of making an actual, functional medication.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Again, that's just not how things work. Someone took herbs, and got better. Well, people get better for all sorts of reasons. (often with no intervention whatsoever) but because someone once lost a wart after painting it with turpentine it's suddenly a cure.

That's why I mentioned that all depend of the circumstances. For instance, many of my mother's patients do take some medicinal herbs to control certain symptoms of diabetes, but they still need treatement. Doctors often use herbs as a compliment, because natural medicine here is a big deal.

[Weeping Sore]

That's precisely the point though. Companies do trials of botanicals all the time. Then they synthesize it in properly dosaged amounts and call it say, aspirin.

And if the isolate proved to be less effective than the whole plant? Due to secondary, seemingly inactive chemicals, or other enzymatic effects? I'm not saying a pharmaceutical company would suppress these findings (though there have been unrelated cases of trials with a high incidence of side effects being suppressed); it's probably enough to simply not promote such a finding.

Nevertheless you're right to point out that the uncertainty of dose in herbal supplements is a problem. The supplement industry clearly needs more regulation.

[peterbound]

Not sure you would classify it as 'medicine', but i've found a lot of benefits from yoga, transcendental meditation, and a diet higher in meat.

That coupled with my power/strength training, and a little running has made my life all around better.

Saying that, I avoid the doctor at all costs. Being raised white trash, then working for the military as long as I have has breed an irrational distrust of those in the medical profession.

Actually working (loosely) with doc's hasn't helped either.

[peterbound]

That's why I mentioned that all depend of the circumstances. For instance, many of my mother's patients do take some medicinal herbs to control certain symptoms of diabetes, but they still need treatement. Doctors often use herbs as a compliment, because natural medicine here is a big deal.

What herbs are associated with diabetes? Type I or II? I've never heard this, and i'm not sure anything out on the market would help out in any way shape or form.

[Galactus]

And if the isolate proved to be less effective than the whole plant? Due to secondary, seemingly inactive chemicals, or other enzymatic effects? I'm not saying a pharmaceutical company would suppress these findings (though there have been unrelated cases of trials with a high incidence of side effects being suppressed); it's probably enough to simply not promote such a finding.

Nevertheless you're right to point out that the uncertainty of dose in herbal supplements is a problem. The supplement industry clearly needs more regulation.

Then another company would take a look at it, say "Score!" and start marketing NuAspirin. Or one of the periodic governmental or university studies would do something similar, release the findings, and they'd change the recipe. (which also happens relatively commonly)

People are literally saying that "Well, since we can't know the effects we should just make shit up" which is preposterous.

[Glaurung]

With regards to those who prefer alternative medicine, I'll just say this. Before modern medicine, people didn't live very long. They died and they died in terrible ways and what would be considered a middle aged man would have been an elderly man just 150 years ago. With modern medicine we've been able to cure so many disease and ease the suffering of others. Hell, you can have a surgeon cut you open and replace your organs(even your heart) and not feel a thing while they've got your insides exposed. Modern medicine is great. That's not to say that alternative cures can't sometimes work, particularly in regards to promoting overall health/preventative medicine, but if you have a serious illness and you're considering alternative medicine....don't. Seriously....see a doctor and get that shit treated.

The pharmaceutical industry is there to make money. They make money off of sick people. Therefore it is in their benefit to keep their customer base sick, or at the very least dependent on the industry. This isn't a conspiracy, this is their business model. There's a reason the cancer industry is a $10 billion per year industry and it isn't because they are curing people.

Just because they're trying to make money from sick people doesn't mean they are trying to keep them sick. It's in their benefit to cure them, otherwise what would be the point?

You don't try to fix your plumbing yourself because you think the plumber will sneak behind your back and damage your pipes in a way that they'll need fixing down the road. I'm sure there are shady plumbers, but for the most part they're there to fix the problem and they know you'll need a plumber again eventually anyway, because washers, pipes, etc go bad often enough to keep the industry going. People have always gotten sick and needed medicine and they always will. Pharmaceutical companies don't need to make you sick to stay in business. There is already enough demand.

There's a dearth of "real" evidence for the efficacy of herbal remedies because no one is funding clinical trials. If you spend millions proving that Ashwagandha treats depression more reliably than SSRIs, there's nothing to stop any other company from capitalizing on your research by simply packaging and selling the natural botanical. You can't patent the plant to protect your investment in research.

(I am pretty skeptical of homeopathic medicine, which you mention. There's little reason to think that botanicals can't be effective, though, as most pharmaceuticals are just isolates of active chemicals found in rainforest botanicals)

Private labs research botanicals all the time. They can and will find a way to patent the cure as well, even if most of the ingredients are naturally occuring. Just because the recipe for a cure comes from natural resources doesn't mean other companies can just copy that recipe. They can and will make their money with a natural cure....a natural cure that is refined and precisely delivered that is.

That's precisely the point though. Companies do trials of botanicals all the time. Then they synthesize it in properly dosaged amounts and call it say, aspirin.

Exactly.

[The Notorious]

I think people get into alternative treatments for a variety of factors such as hope, fear of side effects, and sometimes just plain ignorance about how established medical technologies/medicines work.

Also surely herbalife et al could fund some serious researches into alternative medicines no? Their market cap is huge but then again they're under serious criticism and investigations into allegation of being a pyramid scheme that preys on the poor and ignorant.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

What herbs are associated with diabetes? Type I or II? I've never heard this, and i'm not sure anything out on the market would help out in any way shape or form.

Hercampuri, for instance. Helps reduce fat, sugar and cholesterol. It's suppose to be taken as a complement, though. Pasuchaca and Cuti Cuti also helps to control sugar low. There are few more http://www.schuler.com.pe/ingles/estudios.html

[Weeping Sore]

Western pharmaceutical companies have been trying to patent the medicinal properties of the afformentioned Ashwagandha, as well as the herb Turmeric but were apparently effectively blocked by India (by what legal means I'm not sure - diplomatic pressure?) who called the encroachment on their traditional medicine an act of "biopiracy".

http://1degreebio.org/blog/?bid=254

A patent was later allowed for the use of an active component of Ashwagandha to be used to enhance the effectiveness of vaccines, apparently because it is an application not described by Ayurvedic medicine.

http://www.mondaq.com/india/x/264682/Patent/The+Indian+Gensing+Ashwagandha+Gets+US+Patent+For+Vaccine+Adjuvant

ETA: so this is at least one case where the maxim "anything that actually works would already be synthesized as a pharmaceutical" does not hold.