Addressing Stark bias: Part 3

[John Doe]

He has one fleet up on the Bolton's. That's just plain helpful.

About as useful as Scotland building a fleet to protect itself from England. But of course Manderly can transport troops, which is an advantage.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

You are right, there is no defense the Northmen have against the IB raiders and without the IT's protection it is open season for the IB.

I doubt the IT would want to protect them anyway, or ever really have. Aegon ended the old way as of the Conquest. Since then, the Ironborn have been forbidden to raid.

On the West coast, the only protection they can count on are the winter snows, their castles and wintertowns, and the sheer terrain. Manderly's fleet probably has some other purpose, likely the protection and supply of White Harbor.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

About as useful as Scotland building a fleet to protect itself from England. But of course Manderly can transport troops, which is an advantage.

In that scenario a fleet is helpful for sea warfare as well, and to protect and supply White Harbor.

[John Doe]

You are right, there is no defense the Northmen have against the IB raiders and without the IT's protection it is open season for the IB.

Interesting though that an independent North would please both the Noth and the Ironborn, as the latter would have a place for raping and pillaging once again.

[Lee-Sensei]

Re 6: Robb needed other lords to fight with him. He let them go to defend their own lands, and Catelyn sees this as a huge mistake. After his initial victories, Robb is bleeding men. This is a situation where a little less mercy would have helped Robb.

Re 8: Catelyn is always against letting Theon leave. She knows that the Greyjoys are potentially aggressive. She realizes that Theon was never a friend or a "son," but a hostage. She realizes that Theon would serve Robb best if he remained a hostage to keep Balon under control. Robb, however, lets him go, as he assumes all manner of crap that he shouldn't. Here, again, Robb would benefit from less idealism.

Re 13: Lysa is not a terribly likable person, but her decision to defend her own domain is a good one. It is clear that Robb is not the best general there is. Getting involved with the losing side would be a ridiculous move for her.

6) ?

8) I agree. What of it?

12) I mostly agree.

[Trickrs]

Isn't most of the Royal Fleet crippled?

With the new ships in Aurane (spelling)'s hands.

[butterbumps!]

Yea, a fleet in White Harbor is just so amazingly useless. Like, for example, the fact that it's on the side of the North where stores of food they can import are located, during a period of winter, which is looking like conditions for widespread famine right now, is completely useless.

This is a really good example of what I meant before. That 2 sides take such entrenched all or nothing views about all these tangential topics. WH may not be an advantage against attacks from the West, and Manderly might not be as pro-Stark as he's led us to believe, but for ffs, there's no need to make this zero sum. WH wasn't an advantage before, but it looks like it's set up to be utterly crucial in relation to mitigating a different issue in the upcoming books.

[kimim]

6) ?

8) I agree. What of it?

12) I mostly agree.

lol I was agreeing with you. What's interesting is that Catelyn knows all this, but is too respectful of the status quo to advise Robb. She's an idealist, too. I find the Starks infuriating sometimes.

[Lee-Sensei]

Why do people think Manderly's not pro-Stark. He seems pretty genuine to me.

[John Doe]

In that scenario a fleet is helpful for sea warfare as well, and to protect and supply White Harbor.

As there is no sea between the Boltons and Manderlys, sea warfare is unimportant; the war will be decided on land.

[Boarsbane]

I doubt the IT would want to protect them anyway, or ever really have. Aegon ended the old way as of the Conquest. Since then, the Ironborn have been forbidden to raid.

On the West coast, the only protection they can count on are the winter snows, their castles and wintertowns, and the sheer terrain. Manderly's fleet probably has some other purpose, likely the protection and supply of White Harbor.

I already pointed out a time where the crown took direct intervention to protect the North and West from the IB

[Lee-Sensei]

lol I was agreeing with you. What's interesting is that Catelyn knows all this, but is too respectful of the status quo to advise Robb. She's an idealist, too. I find the Starks infuriating sometimes.

Oh.:)

My Lord father used to say that hard places breed hard people. And hard people rule the world. The Starks have been to soft and have suffered for it.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

I already pointed out a time where the crown took direct intervention to protect the North and West from the IB

You mean the first Greyjoy rebellion? They also attacked the Westerlands in that attempt.

"The Greyjoys; known for the skills in navigation, archery, and lovemaking."

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

As there is no sea between the Boltons and Manderlys, sea warfare is unimportant; the war will be decided on land.

But the guy with a fleet can ship in supplies and have naval trade, where the other cannot.

"I seized the navy."

"And who told you to do that?"

"No one. i heard you like ships."

"(damn he's right I do like ships)"

[Boarsbane]

You mean the first Greyjoy rebellion? They also attacked the Westerlands in that attempt.

"The Greyjoys; known for the skills in navigation, archery, and lovemaking."

"And failed rebellions."

No I mean when Dagon Greyjoy was raising hell.

"Dagon bearded the lion in his den and tied the direwolf's tail in knots, but even Dagon could not defeat the dragons."

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

No I mean when Dagon Greyjoy was raising hell.

"Dagon bearded the lion in his den and tied the direwolf's tail in knots, but even Dagon could not defeat the dragons."

The North and the other kingdoms have fought wars with the Ironborn for thousands of years. At one point, they ruled a huge kingdom and rule wherever the sound of waves was heard. But long before the conquest the Ironborn had long lost most of their holdings in the back-and-forth wars.

[Boarsbane]

The North and the other kingdoms have fought wars with the Ironborn for thousands of years. At one point, they ruled a huge kingdom and rule wherever the sound of waves was heard. But long before the conquest the Ironborn had long lost most of their holdings in the back-and-forth wars.

OK but what does that have to do with what I am saying? My point is without the threat of the IT's retaliation against them the IB are going to raise hell all along the North's western coast and the Northmen are going to be able to do nothing about it, and the IT isn't going to care and may very well encourage it since it gets them to leave everyone else alone.

[John Doe]

Yea, a fleet in White Harbor is just so amazingly useless. Like, for example, the fact that it's on the side of the North where stores of food they can import are located, during a period of winter, which is looking like conditions for widespread famine right now, is completely useless.

It protects the trade, I said that. But it won't help much against fleets from the south or the IB raids.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

OK but what does that have to do with what I am saying? My point is without the threat of the IT's retaliation against them the IB are going to raise hell all along the North's western coast and the Northmen are going to be able to do nothing about it, and the IT isn't going to care and may very well encourage it since it gets them to leave everyone else alone.

With Winter setting in, the there's nothing to take, and they aren't winter warriors. With the Northmen either concentrating in their wintertowns and castles or seeking refuge elsewhere, the easy pickings are gone, and buried in dozens of feet of snow. The Ironborn also either off raiding the Reach or have sailed with Victarion.

[butterbumps!]

As there is no sea between the Boltons and Manderlys, sea warfare is unimportant; the war will be decided on land.

You know that the White Knife-- which boats can navigate, comes inland from WH, and has been what Manderly and Umber were using to bring wood down in order to build said fleet-- divides Winterfell from the Dreadfort, and connects WH to Last Hearth? It's not war at sea, true, but I wouldn't so summarily write off the fleet or WH has unilaterally useless. I might go so far as to say that doing so is a case of non objectivity ;) .

It protects the trade, I said that. But it won't help much against fleets from the south or the IB raids.

That's true for the most part-- in terms of threats from the West. Its virtue is in solving different issues.