Addressing Stark bias: Part 3

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

It protects the trade, I said that. But it won't help much against fleets from the south or the IB raids.

The Redwyne Fleet is under assault or otherwise occupied, and the Royal Fleet is either dead or has deserted to Aurane.

[John Doe]

The Redwyne Fleet is under assault or otherwise occupied, and the Royal Fleet is either dead or has deserted to Aurane.

I know. But we were talking about an independet northern kingdom, and in this case the fleets of the IB nd the south won't be occupied with each other forever.

[Boarsbane]

With Winter setting in, the there's nothing to take, and they aren't winter warriors. With the Northmen either concentrating in their wintertowns and castles or seeking refuge elsewhere, the easy pickings are gone, and buried in dozens of feet of snow. The Ironborn also either off raiding the Reach or have sailed with Victarion.

I don't mean at this very point in time in the story, I mean if the North had became independent from the rest of Westeros. Yes the Northman would be relatively safe in winter but when spring came around the IB would be right back at it.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

I don't mean at this very point in time in the story, I mean if the North had became independent from the rest of Westeros. Yes the Northman would be relatively safe in winter but when spring came around the IB would be right back at it.

And by that time, we also 7 independent but virtually empty kingdoms, with Winterfell ruled by a demi-god (Bran) and his siblings. It's a whole different game. Now we're back to the way it was before the conquest, and that we know doesn't mean that Ironborn can hold the Stoney Shore indefinitely.

I know. But we were talking about an independet northern kingdom, and in this case the fleets of the IB nd the south won't be occupied with each other forever.

Not forever, but certainly as long as the war and winter lasts, and by that time, there is no IT and the kingdoms have split into seven pieces again. It's a transformed landscape, and the 7K are largely depopulated. The IB can't raid villages in the other 6k that don't exist.

[John Doe]

You know that the White Knife-- which boats can navigate, comes inland from WH, and has been what Manderly and Umber were using to bring wood down in order to build said fleet-- divides Winterfell from the Dreadfort, and connects WH to Last Hearth? It's not war at sea, true, but I wouldn't so summarily write off the fleet or WH has unilaterally useless. I might go so far as to say that doing so is a case of non objectivity ;)

Didn't know that the White KNife is broad enough for Manderlys' ships to navigate until far north, if this is true you have a point. Saying that most threats for the North are in the West, and therefore a fleet would be at least needed on both sides to protect an independent northern kingdom from southern/ironborn attacks/be useful to face these attacks, is no case of non objectivity. A northern Kingdom could not defend itself sufficiently, and if this is the task of the fleet it is rather useless..

[Boarsbane]

And by that time, we also 7 independent but virtually empty kingdoms, with Winterfell ruled by a demi-god (Bran) and his siblings. It's a whole different game. Now we're back to the way it was before the conquest, and that we know doesn't mean that Ironborn can hold the Stoney Shore indefinitely.

No, the West, Reach, Vale, Stormlands, and even Dorne have showed no interest in breaking away from the IT. Guess who that leaves alone on the west coast for the IB? The North.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Didn't know that the White KNife is broad enough for Manderlys' ships to navigate until far north, if this is true you have a point. Saying that most threats for the North are in the West, and therefore a fleet would be at least needed on both sides to protect an independent northern kingdom from southern/ironborn attacks/be useful to face these attacks, is no case of non objectivity. A northern Kingdom could not defend itself sufficiently.

Tommen and Mycella will die per the Valonqar prophecy, and who thinks that Dany will survive? Or that a Targaryen dynasty can be revived in light of all that's happened? Tyrion noted that Freehold never apparently even attempted to invade Westeros, and that can't be a coincidence. The Vale has basically refused to cooperate or act to save the IT. The West or Stormlands don't have much of a stake left in the IT. And Dorne? Dorne wants to destroy House Lannister and the Tyrells are attempting to undermine it.

The IB are right now raiding the Reach and Euron's making his bid for Dany's hand, for all the good that will do.

[The Wolves]

A northern Kingdom could not defend itself sufficiently, and if this is the task of the fleet it is rather useless..

Yes it can.

[butterbumps!]

Didn't know that the White KNife is broad enough for Manderlys' ships to navigate until far north, if this is true you have a point. Saying that most threats for the North are in the West, and therefore a fleet would be at least needed on both sides to protect an independent northern kingdom from southern/ironborn attacks/be useful to face these attacks, is no case of non objectivity. A northern Kingdom could not defend itself sufficiently.

Oh, but that's not what I was pointing to as non-objectivity. It's these comments that take the zero-sum, divisive, non-objective approach as we discussed earlier:

As there is no sea between the Boltons and Manderlys, sea warfare is unimportant; the war will be decided on land.

Unfortunaley the fleet s on the wrong side of the continent, and therefore utterly useless.

A fleet is pretty much useless against the Boltons, and ways too weak to take on either the Royal Fleet or the Redwyne Fleet.

Objectivity has a lot to do with not letting bias limit one's sight. Claims that Manderly's fleet and WH are "utterly useless," useless against Boltons particularly, not seeing the whole White Knife issue, seeing only virtue in whether they can defend against the west, and downplaying the tremendous importance an eastern fleet would have in light of winter food importation are kind of examples of limited sight. Which, for the record, I don't have a problem with since none of us see and remember everything. I responded thusly because you earlier asked me to explain why I thought your posts were coming across as non-objective, not the way you claimed they were. This is a case in point.

[John Doe]

Probably not against an attack from sea.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Probably not against an attack from sea.

The 7 Kingdoms were 7 Kingdoms for thousands of Years. The Starks were KitN in all that time, while other dynasties came and went. I think they figured it out.

At different times, the Ironborn held the coasts on-and-off, but of course they couldn't hold the whole North, just as they can't now.

[John Doe]

Objectivity has a lot to do with not letting bias limit one's sight. Claims that Manderly's fleet and WH are "utterly useless," useless against Boltons particularly, not seeing the whole White Knife issue, seeing only virtue in whether they can defend against the west, and downplaying the tremendous importance an eastern fleet would have in light of winter food importation are kind of examples of limited sight. Which, for the record, I don't have a problem with. You earlier asked me to explain why I thought your posts were coming across as non-objective, the way you claimed they were. This is a case in point.

I agreed with you that if Manderlys' ships can navigate the White Knife you have a point, that is actually a sign of being objective. It protects the sea trade, as I said, and I didn't say White Habour itself was unimportant, but the fleet of White Habour is useless if the goal is defending the North (as a whole), because every opponent from the south can easily attack the west coast. And of course I focused on the west because this was the weakness of the North I wanted to adress.

[John Doe]

The 7 Kingdoms were 7 Kingdoms for thousands of Years. The Starks were KitN in all that time, while other dynasties came and went. I think they figured it out.

At different times, the Ironborn held the coasts on-and-off, but of course they couldn't hold the whole North, just as they can't now.

This does not disprove my point, and if there will be seven Kingdoms again has yet to be proven. The Ironborn can still attack the North easily, and as I pointed out, the North is the best goal for them becuse it has no fleet on the west coast, is vast (the biggest of the kingdoms), and has a low population density (the lowest of the kingdoms), which makes gathering armies for countering the quick Ironborn raids even harder.

[butterbumps!]

I agreed with you that if Manderlys' ships can navigate the White Knife you have a point, and I'm willing to believe it, that is a sign of being objective. It protects the sea trade, as I said, and I didn't say White Habour was unimportant, but the fleet of White Habour is useless if the goal is defending the North (as a whole), because every opponent from the south can easily attack the west coast. And of course I focused on the west because this was the weakness of the North I wanted to adress.

That's totally fine, and I'm not taking any further issues on this. I just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't trying to accuse you of non-objectivity about the issue you stated I was:

Saying that most threats for the North are in the West, and therefore a fleet would be at least needed on both sides to protect an independent northern kingdom from southern/ironborn attacks/be useful to face these attacks, is no case of non objectivity.

as I'd be ridiculous to call you non-objective for pointing out that most enemies attack the North from the West, and that therefore, protection on both sides is useful.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

This does not disprove my point. If there will be seven Kingdoms again, which has yet to be proven. And the Ironborn can still raid the North, and as I pointed out, the North is the best goal for them becuse it has no fleet at the western side, is vast (the biggest of the kingdoms), and has a low population density (faik the lowest of the kingdoms), which makes gathering armies for countering the Ironborn raids even harder.

It actually does, because if you look at the current political conditions described, an IT revival is essentially impossible. The current heirs, Tommen and Myrcella will die per the Valonqar Prophecy, and none of the kingdoms have a stake or a claim to the IT anymore except Dorne without them. Stannis is hated and not AA. He has only one very young heiress. Only Dany, who's chances of surivival are not good, as per her hero's narrative, and whose dynasty was only able to hold onto power what is in Westerosi time a brief moment. The Starks have been ruling the north for 8000 years. The Targaryens only ruled for 300.

Kingdoms do not fall because pirates raid their fishing villages, especially if those pirates have other enemies and a known HG. The Ironborn usually attack one longship at a time, so an army is hardly necessary to stop them. It means they are hard to catch, but they also can't hold on to any land. It's the key to their success, and their limitation.

[John Doe]

That's totally fine, and I'm not taking any further issues on this. I just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't trying to accuse you of non-objectivity about the issue you stated I was:

as I'd be ridiculous to call you non-objective for pointing out that most enemies attack the North from the West, and that therefore, protection on both sides is useful.

Yeah, I forgot about the White Knife. And saying the fleet is useless might seem too harsh, but since we first talked about defending the North, and I mean the whole North when I say North, it can be considerd useless (in this regard), as it can not accomplish this task sufficiently. That's why I elaborated, my apologies for the misunderstanding. :)

[John Doe]

It actually does, because if you look at the current political conditions described, an IT revival is essentially impossible. The current heirs, Tommen and Myrcella will die per the Valonqar Prophecy, and none of the kingdoms have a stake or a claim to the IT anymore except Dorne without them. Stannis is hated and not AA. He has only one very young heiress. Only Dany, who's chances of surivival are not good, as per her hero's narrative, and whose dynasty was only able to hold onto power what is in Westerosi time a brief moment. The Starks have been ruling the north for 8000 years. The Targaryens only ruled for 300.

Kingdoms do not fall because pirates raid their fishing villages, especially if those pirates have other enemies and a known HG. The Ironborn usually attack one longship at a time, so an army is hardly necessary to stop them. It means they are hard to catch, but they also can't hold on to any land. It's the key to their success, and their limitation.

Not really. That Tommen and Myrcella will die is just a possiblity, nothing more.There is still Aegon (and his "friends in the Reach"), and if he marries Sansa, the Vale, the North and the Riverlands might fall for him. You don't know whether Stannis is AA or not. The Reach and the Westerlands did not want to separate so far and have basically nothing to gain from it, the only kingdom that wanted that was the North (and of course the Iron Islands).

And I doubt that the Ironborn attack with only one ship at a time, that would be stupid. Theon was sent with eight ships to raid the basically non- defended Stony Shore, and yes, Kingdoms don't fall because of burning villages, but as the Vikings proved raidings can be quick and go beyond some burning villages, especially if the Starks are occupied somewhere else.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

No it doesn't. That Tommen and Myrcella will die is just a possiblity, nothing more.There is still Aegon (and his "friends in the Reach"), and if he marries Sansa, the Vale, the North and the Riverlands might fall for him. You don't know whether Stannis is AA or not. The Reach and the Westerlands did not want to separate so far, the only kingdom that wanted that was the North (and of course the Iron Islands).

And I doubt that the Ironborn attack wth one ship at a time, that would be stupid. Theon was sent with eight ships to raid the basically non- defended Stony Shore, and yes, Kingdoms don't fall because of burning villages, but as the Vikings proved raidings can be quick and go beyond some burning villages, especially if the Starks are occupied somewhere else"

"Gold will be their crowns and gold will be their shrouds." This prophecy is huge in Cercei's story, and it's happening, as prophecies in ASOIAF always come true one way or another. And their dying is what partially leads to her death. And she will die. It's prophecy.

If GRRM intended for Aegon to have the throne, he would have started his character arch much earlier. There is also the fact that it's highly unlikely Varys could have plausibly switched them given the cirumstances. Do you think deus-ex-machina is GRRM's ending for the series?

In AFFC, when the Iroborn attack the shield islands, it is mentioned that the Ironborn mostly do their raids with 1-3 longships. Because you only need like 20 pirates to raid a fishing village.

Stannis's name is taken from a latin word meaning "contaminated with tin." In AGOT, Jon tells Aemon "You can't make tin into iron no matter how hard you beat it." That is not an accident. Stannis's sword is no LB. Stannis is not AA, and he is not the "true iron."

The Ironborn have raiding fishing villages for 8000 years, and that kingdom could never get very deep into the north for any longer than a generation. Asha pointedly notes that their power is their ships. In the Riverlands, with it's you know, rivers, they could penetrate deeper and hold more land.

The poltical chaos of Westeros in irreversible. Guest right, kinslaying, kingslaying, all the big taboos have broken, meaning a peace is impossible to negotiate. JonCon has likley brought a greyscale epidemic with him, food is scarce, the Others will soon swarm over the Wall, which will fall, and go as far South as they can get; which is likely all the way to Dorne.

Shit. Is. Fucked.

"The wolves will come again...I dreamed it."-Jojen Reed, ASOS

“The trees have eyes again.”-Qorin Halfhand, ASOS

“History is a wheel, for the nature of man is fundamentally unchanging. What has happened before will perforce happen again.”-Rodrik Harlaw, AFFC

“I am wolf. I will not go.”-Bran, ACOK.

“Old powers waken, shadows stir. An age of wonder and terror will be soon be upon us, an age for gods and heroes.”-AFFC

[TheLastStark]

1) It was about what Tywin did. Tywin is incredibly underrated. Betting on a green boy instead of Tywin Lannister would have been silly.

2) He engaged Stark bannermen, took large tracks of their North and destroyed their fledgling rebellion. They got their revenge. That's all that matters.

3) What?

4) Why don't you? She killed Jon Arryn so he wouldn't send sickly Robert away. LF told her how to do it and told her to send the letter to Cat so she wouldn't be under suspicion. That's what she thinks is so clever. She did these things for Robert and so she could be with LF, but Robert is at the heart of all her decisions and wanting to protet her son isn't selfish. It would have been selfish to drag thousands of Valemen into a stupid war to give her nephew a crown when most of them could probably careless about House Stark.

5) Why is this so hard for you to understand? Robb told him to hold Riverrun and he did. Edmure also protected his people. Robb knows what Edmures like and failed to give clear and concise orders. He failed.

“If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, then the general is to blame." - Sun Tzu

6) Balon isn't Robb's vassal. Balon isn't Robbs subject or slave. Robb wanted other Highlords to win his war for him. As late as ASoS he was frantically begging Lysa to bail him out. He was far to arrogant. Balon doesn't need Robb's permission to crown himself and he doesn't need Robb's permission to go to war. Robb can't offer Balon anything because the Iron Islands isn't Robb's to give. The Iron Born take what is theirs. It was condescending.

7) Some of the Highlords wanted to go to war, but the common Valemen don't know that people believe the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn and would probably much rather stay out of some foreign kids idiotic war of succession. And protecting her son is the right thing to do. It would have been more selfish for her to drag thousands of men out to fight and die for some kid they don't care about.

8) Balon was an ex-King and Theon was an ex-Prince. Cat and Robb knew that Balon probably wanted to crown himself again. Swear fealty to who?

9) All I'm saying is that they had a legit reason to be angry.

10) His castle comes first. End of story. The Red Keep and Storms End were both his castles. Taking Winterfell was always the plan. Balon just planned on doing it later.

11) Nope. The way Balon sees it Robert and Ned killed his sons so it only makes sense for him to want to kill Ned's.

12) They made a deal with Tyrion pretty early on in ACoK.

13) It would have been even more selfish to drag 20000 men out to die in a war for some foreign kid they don't care about.

1)What did Tywin do? He was losing to a green boy and had no allies.

2)He engaged Stark bannermen? Who Benfred Tallheart? The fishing villages of the Stoney Shore? Robett and Galbart Glover who were in the south with Robb? They never engaged the north. Asha took a litely garriosoned wood fort. Theon trick WF into leaving to help Torrhen’s Square and then snuck into WF. Victorian snuck up behing Moat Calin and took what about 200 men from behind. When did they openly engage the northern bannermen?

3)You said - You're disagreeing with GRRM, kid. And then I said - Don't know what I'm disagreeing with, maybe a quote and source would clear that fiasco up. And you call me kid with your "you don't like someone, and that someone attacked/neglected/indifferent the Starks, that's Stark bias that is" attitude.

4)“Tears, tears, tears,” she sobbed hysterically. “No need for tears... but that’s not what you said in King’s Landing. You told me to put the tears in Jon’s wine, and I did. For Robert, and for us! And I wrote Catelyn and told her the Lannisters had killed my lord husband, just as you said. That was so clever... you were always clever, I told Father that, I said Petyr’s so clever, he’ll rise high, he will, he will, and he’s sweet and gentle and I have his little baby in my belly... Why did you kiss her? Why? We’re together now, we’re together after so long, so very long, why would you want to kiss herrrrrr?” She did it because he told her to. She did it for both Robert and LF, but only when HE told her to do it. How was she going to kill him otherwise?

5)Why is this so hard for you to understand? Robb told him to hold Riverrun not engage the enemy in open field. Just had to copy and paste part of your own quote.

6)Robb tried to make an ally, yet you make it sound as if he was forcing Balon to bow to him. His offer was, attack the Lannisters, call yourself king, take their lands and leave ours be. That's it. He NEVER asks for fealty. He NEVER says that Balon would be his vassel, or bannerman. He NEVER says that Balon must bow to him. He offered an alliance to someone else who wanted out of the IT's grip. He even sends Cat to ask for an alliance with Renly. Asking for help or allies in a war is not asking for someone else to win the war for you. It's called diplomacy. And IIRC didn't they attack the Westerlands first the last time they rebeled? And you might want to try and hide your obvious Anti-Stark view when trying to compose a decent argument, otherwise it takes away from everything you say. Especially when you say he wants other highlords to win the war for him :rofl: . Untill his Frey fuck up he was winning the war without the Vale, without Renly and Stannis, and without Balon. The Vale think the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn and want revenge. Could be good allies from his point of view. Stannis and Renly both claiming the throne. He seems more inclined to kneel to Stannis rather than Renly(but who knows if he would or not) and Renly has the larger army, why not ally with him? Is it so wrong to ask for allies in a time of war? For you, if that person is a Stark, then of course it's wrong and weak, and he can't win, and he needs other highlords to win it for him. And the Iron born take what is not theirs, and then get their asses spanked for it.

7)The Highlords is what matters. I've never heard of the commoners declaring war for their lords, it's the lords who declare war. They don't care about the Starks or Tullys or Baratheons. All they want is vengence for the murder of Jon Arryn, and they think that the Lannisters killed him. So with that thinking, anyone who is fighting the Lannisters is their ally. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. LOL drag them out, what kicking and screaming? As time went on their thrist for vengence decreased, but when they first heard that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn most of them wanted to spill Lannister blood. It was never for a war of succession, it was a war for vengence, and then independence. Get it right. What was happening with Renly and Stannis was for succession, NOT Stark. He was fighting to protect the river lands from being pillaged, and then when his father was killed, it became about vengence, then about indepencdence. Gee, vengence sounds like a similar motive between Stark and Arryn. Sounds like a good alliance from any POV.

8)Balon was NEVER a king. The Greyjoys were NEVER kings. He claimed to be a king and then bent his knee to Robert just as fast. You can't call yourself a king if you a)never had a kingdom and b)get steamrolled by your enemy immidiately after claiming to be a king. Yes they knew that, and Robb thought that if he gave Balon his son back that he would make his kingdom out of the Westerlands not the North. It was a gamble that didn't pay off. In war nothing is certain and you must make gambles sometimes. He did, it backfired, and in hindsight wasn't a good decision.

10)Yes and his castle is only KL if he is king. You don't get both. When Robert was king he didn't hold SE too. SE should of been given to someone else once he proclaimed himself king. Again, by the time Renly takes KL and eleminates the Lannister threat, he could of dealt with Stannis. Then after that he probably would of told Robb to bend the knee or go to war. I wonder what Robb would of done then.

11)Ned Stark had killed neither of his brothers, in truth. Rodrik had been slain by Lord Jason Mallister at Seagard, Maron crushed in the collapse of the old south tower. Ned Stark killed who? Balon bitches just like Dany. Stark was the Usurpers dog and should be blamed as well. Grow up and see the truth for what it is. One son killed by Jason Mallister, the other because of falling debris. And all he can blame is himself, because if he never rebelled, then they would still be alive.

12)True, and one of the conditions was for the Mountains head. And IIRC that was after Renly was dead.

[Lee-Sensei]

1)What did Tywin do? He was losing to a green boy and had no allies.

2)He engaged Stark bannermen? Who Benfred Tallheart? The fishing villages of the Stoney Shore? Robett and Galbart Glover who were in the south with Robb? They never engaged the north. Asha took a litely garriosoned wood fort. Theon trick WF into leaving to help Torrhen’s Square and then snuck into WF. Victorian snuck up behing Moat Calin and took what about 200 men from behind. When did they openly engage the northern bannermen?

3)You said - You're disagreeing with GRRM, kid. And then I said - Don't know what I'm disagreeing with, maybe a quote and source would clear that fiasco up. And you call me kid with your "you don't like someone, and that someone attacked/neglected/indifferent the Starks, that's Stark bias that is" attitude.

4)“Tears, tears, tears,” she sobbed hysterically. “No need for tears... but that’s not what you said in King’s Landing. You told me to put the tears in Jon’s wine, and I did. For Robert, and for us! And I wrote Catelyn and told her the Lannisters had killed my lord husband, just as you said. That was so clever... you were always clever, I told Father that, I said Petyr’s so clever, he’ll rise high, he will, he will, and he’s sweet and gentle and I have his little baby in my belly... Why did you kiss her? Why? We’re together now, we’re together after so long, so very long, why would you want to kiss herrrrrr?” She did it because he told her to. She did it for both Robert and LF, but only when HE told her to do it. How was she going to kill him otherwise?

5)Why is this so hard for you to understand? Robb told him to hold Riverrun not engage the enemy in open field. Just had to copy and paste part of your own quote.

6)Robb tried to make an ally, yet you make it sound as if he was forcing Balon to bow to him. His offer was, attack the Lannisters, call yourself king, take their lands and leave ours be. That's it. He NEVER asks for fealty. He NEVER says that Balon would be his vassel, or bannerman. He NEVER says that Balon must bow to him. He offered an alliance to someone else who wanted out of the IT's grip. He even sends Cat to ask for an alliance with Renly. Asking for help or allies in a war is not asking for someone else to win the war for you. It's called diplomacy. And IIRC didn't they attack the Westerlands first the last time they rebeled? And you might want to try and hide your obvious Anti-Stark view when trying to compose a decent argument, otherwise it takes away from everything you say. Especially when you say he wants other highlords to win the war for him :rofl: . Untill his Frey fuck up he was winning the war without the Vale, without Renly and Stannis, and without Balon. The Vale think the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn and want revenge. Could be good allies from his point of view. Stannis and Renly both claiming the throne. He seems more inclined to kneel to Stannis rather than Renly(but who knows if he would or not) and Renly has the larger army, why not ally with him? Is it so wrong to ask for allies in a time of war? For you, if that person is a Stark, then of course it's wrong and weak, and he can't win, and he needs other highlords to win it for him. And the Iron born take what is not theirs, and then get their asses spanked for it.

7)The Highlords is what matters. I've never heard of the commoners declaring war for their lords, it's the lords who declare war. They don't care about the Starks or Tullys or Baratheons. All they want is vengence for the murder of Jon Arryn, and they think that the Lannisters killed him. So with that thinking, anyone who is fighting the Lannisters is their ally. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. LOL drag them out, what kicking and screaming? As time went on their thrist for vengence decreased, but when they first heard that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn most of them wanted to spill Lannister blood. It was never for a war of succession, it was a war for vengence, and then independence. Get it right. What was happening with Renly and Stannis was for succession, NOT Stark. He was fighting to protect the river lands from being pillaged, and then when his father was killed, it became about vengence, then about indepencdence. Gee, vengence sounds like a similar motive between Stark and Arryn. Sounds like a good alliance from any POV.

8)Balon was NEVER a king. The Greyjoys were NEVER kings. He claimed to be a king and then bent his knee to Robert just as fast. You can't call yourself a king if you a)never had a kingdom and b)get steamrolled by your enemy immidiately after claiming to be a king. Yes they knew that, and Robb thought that if he gave Balon his son back that he would make his kingdom out of the Westerlands not the North. It was a gamble that didn't pay off. In war nothing is certain and you must make gambles sometimes. He did, it backfired, and in hindsight wasn't a good decision.

10)Yes and his castle is only KL if he is king. You don't get both. When Robert was king he didn't hold SE too. SE should of been given to someone else once he proclaimed himself king. Again, by the time Renly takes KL and eleminates the Lannister threat, he could of dealt with Stannis. Then after that he probably would of told Robb to bend the knee or go to war. I wonder what Robb would of done then.

11)Ned Stark had killed neither of his brothers, in truth. Rodrik had been slain by Lord Jason Mallister at Seagard, Maron crushed in the collapse of the old south tower. Ned Stark killed who? Balon bitches just like Dany. Stark was the Usurpers dog and should be blamed as well. Grow up and see the truth for what it is. One son killed by Jason Mallister, the other because of falling debris. And all he can blame is himself, because if he never rebelled, then they would still be alive.

12)True, and one of the conditions was for the Mountains head. And IIRC that was after Renly was dead.

1) Losing battles isn't the same as losing the war and Robb proved to be a very incompetent politician. Prussian General Clausewitz said war is politics by other means and Robb didn't seem to understand that. Being weary of Tywin is wise. He has proven in the past to be a highly competent general, politician, administrator and general and above all ruthless.

2) When they took Deepwoode Motte, the Stony Shore, Torrhen Square and Moat Cailin.

3) I really don't know what you're saying with that second part.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Baratheon_Brothers/

4) She did it because Jon was going to take their son away and send him to Stannis. LF told her how it would be done, but let's not pretend she did it all for LF.

5) Did Robb say hold Riverrun and stay there no matter what? If not, it's Robb's fault.

6) That wasn't an offer. Firstly, Robb can't offer to let him attack the Lannisters because Balon doesn't need his permission. Robb can't offer to let him call himself King, because Balon doesn't need Robb's permission. I never said that Robb called him his vassal (Although that was the plan in the show, and it was an incredibly stupid and lame change). But he was talking down to Balon. And it was a condescending letter. I give the Starks credit where credit is due, but you have some nerve calling me biased The Last Stark. Robb wasn't winning the war. He was winning battles, but he wasn't winning the war. I don't have a problem with Robb looking for allies. It was the right thing to do, but his letter was very condescending. Give Balon a crown if he fights his enemies. Robb doesn't have that authority. Robb isn't Balon's superior. He needed Balon and should have been more humble. It was arrogant, and had Balon talked down to him Robb, Robb wouldn't have taken it well. Robb got his ass spanked. The Iron Born are still going strong and are now giving the Reachlords hell.

7) Yes, but their armies are primarily made out of peasant conscripts who couldn't give a damn about the Starks. It would have been selfish to throw away their lives for a cause that the highest noble in the Vale (Lysa), couldn't care less about and that the soldiers couldn't care less about. Or maybe they should have joined their Baratheon King to crush the Lannisters and then Robb? Or maybe they should have stayed out of it because the highest noble in the Vale didn't care? Now the Vale's going strong and it's all because they stayed neutral.

8) Balon was a King just like Robb was a King. They may not have been Kings for long, but they were Kings. He was a King during his first Rebellion and he was a King during his second Rebellion. Get that straight. You can claim to be a King if you've never had a Kingdom. By that logic no one can call themselves King, because if you go back far enough you'll get to the point where one of their ancestors wasn't royalty. The Targaryens weren't Kings before they came from Valyria. In fact, IIRC, they were a fairly minor House. It wasn't only a bad idea in hindsight. Cat warned him about it and he didn't listen. It was the wrong thing to do.

9) Yes. You do get both. Take Robert. GRRM himself has said that Robert had every right to keep Dragonstone, KL and Storms End for himself, but he chose to give them to his brothers. You don't leave your castle under siege, especially when you're planning on waiting for the otherfactions to tire themselves out.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Baratheon_Brothers/

10) The tower fell because of Robert and Ned's forces at Pyke. By that logic the Red Wedding is Robb's fault.

11) I'm pretty sure they were in talks about it almost immediately after Tyrion got to KL. One of the first things he does is find out who's Cersei's Mole on the Small Council by telling them he was arranging a marriage alliance for Myrcella with the Greyjoys, Arryns or Martells. It was pretty early.