Addressing Stark bias: Part 3

[TheLastStark]

1) Losing battles isn't the same as losing the war and Robb proved to be a very incompetent politician. Prussian General Clausewitz said war is politics by other means and Robb didn't seem to understand that. Being weary of Tywin is wise. He has proven in the past to be a highly competent general, politician, administrator and general and above all ruthless.

2) When they took Deepwoode Motte, the Stony Shore, Torrhen Square and Moat Cailin.

3) I really don't know what you're saying with that second part.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Baratheon_Brothers/

4) She did it because Jon was going to take their son away and send him to Stannis. LF told her how it would be done, but let's not pretend she did it all for LF.

5) Did Robb say hold Riverrun and stay there no matter what? If not, it's Robb's fault.

6) That wasn't an offer. Firstly, Robb can't offer to let him attack the Lannisters because Balon doesn't need his permission. Robb can't offer to let him call himself King, because Balon doesn't need Robb's permission. I never said that Robb called him his vassal (Although that was the plan in the show, and it was an incredibly stupid and lame change). But he was talking down to Balon. And it was a condescending letter. I give the Starks credit where credit is due, but you have some nerve calling me biased The Last Stark. Robb wasn't winning the war. He was winning battles, but he wasn't winning the war. I don't have a problem with Robb looking for allies. It was the right thing to do, but his letter was very condescending. Give Balon a crown if he fights his enemies. Robb doesn't have that authority. Robb isn't Balon's superior. He needed Balon and should have been more humble. It was arrogant, and had Balon talked down to him Robb, Robb wouldn't have taken it well. Robb got his ass spanked. The Iron Born are still going strong and are now giving the Reachlords hell.

7) Yes, but their armies are primarily made out of peasant conscripts who couldn't give a damn about the Starks. It would have been selfish to throw away their lives for a cause that the highest noble in the Vale (Lysa), couldn't care less about and that the soldiers couldn't care less about. Or maybe they should have joined their Baratheon King to crush the Lannisters and then Robb? Or maybe they should have stayed out of it because the highest noble in the Vale didn't care? Now the Vale's going strong and it's all because they stayed neutral.

8) Balon was a King just like Robb was a King. They may not have been Kings for long, but they were Kings. He was a King during his first Rebellion and he was a King during his second Rebellion. Get that straight. You can claim to be a King if you've never had a Kingdom. By that logic no one can call themselves King, because if you go back far enough you'll get to the point where one of their ancestors wasn't royalty. The Targaryens weren't Kings before they came from Valyria. In fact, IIRC, they were a fairly minor House. It wasn't only a bad idea in hindsight. Cat warned him about it and he didn't listen. It was the wrong thing to do.

9) Yes. You do get both. Take Robert. GRRM himself has said that Robert had every right to keep Dragonstone, KL and Storms End for himself, but he chose to give them to his brothers. You don't leave your castle under siege, especially when you're planning on waiting for the otherfactions to tire themselves out.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Baratheon_Brothers/

10) The tower fell because of Robert and Ned's forces at Pyke. By that logic the Red Wedding is Robb's fault.

11) I'm pretty sure they were in talks about it almost immediately after Tyrion got to KL. One of the first things he does is find out who's Cersei's Mole on the Small Council by telling them he was arranging a marriage alliance for Myrcella with the Greyjoys, Arryns or Martells. It was pretty early.

1)Robb had won every battle to date, Tywin was cut off from the Westerlands, Tywin had zero allies. Robb lost because of his on ignorance, not because of anything Tywin did.

2)Never took Torrehn's Square IIRC. Just laid siege to it and then either ran, or lost the battle outside.

4)Jon was going to send Robert away, yes, and she was upset about it, yes, but it was LF's idea/plan to kill Jon and she did it because he told her too. He may have used Robert as bait for Lysa to do it, but it was his doing all along.

5)If generals have to lay out every detail of what they want from their commanders(what to do and not to do) it would take years for wars to even begin. Edmure was given an order(hold RR). Edmure say an opportunity to strike at the Lannisters and took it. Those were not Robb's orders. Yes, if Robb's plan was to lead Tywin back to the west that information should of been given to Edmure, but that doesn't make what Edmure did right. He took the initiative, which lots of soldiers and commanders still do today. It just happened to turn out bad for him, and if the RW never happened I'd be willing to bet that Edmure would've no longer tried anything outside of his direct orders again.

6)Lord Balon broke the seal and unfolded the parchment. His black eyes flicked back and forth. “So the boy would give me a crown again,” he said, “and all I need do is destroy his enemies.” His thin lips twisted in a smile.

“By now Robb is at the Golden Tooth,” Theon said. “Once it falls, he’ll be through the hills in a day. Lord Tywin’s host is at Harrenhal, cut off from the west. The Kingslayer is a captive at Riverrun. Only Ser Stafford Lannister and the raw green levies he’s been gathering remain to oppose Robb in the west. Ser Stafford will put himself between Robb’s army and Lannisport, which means the city will be undefended when we descend on it by sea. If the gods are with us, even Casterly Rock itself may fall before the Lannisters so much as realize that we are upon them.”

Lord Balon grunted. “Casterly Rock has never fallen.”

“Until now.” Theon smiled. And how sweet that will be.

His father did not return the smile. “So this is why Robb Stark sends you back to me, after so long? So you might win my consent to th-is-pl-anof his? “

“It is my plan, not Robb’s,” Theon said proudly. Mine, as the victory will be mine, and in time the crown. “I will lead the attack myself, if it please you. As my reward I would ask that you grant me Casterly Rock for my own seat, once we have taken it from the Lannisters.” With the Rock, he could hold Lannisport and the golden lands of the west. It would mean wealth and power such as House Greyjoy had never known.

“You reward yourself handsomely for a notion and a few lines of scribbling.” His father read the letter again. “The pup says nothing about a reward. Only that you speak for him, and I am to listen, and give him my sails and swords, and in return he will give me a crown.” His flinty eyes lifted to meet his son’s. “He will give me a crown,” he repeated, his voice growing sharp.

“A poor choice of words, what is meant is-”

“What is meant is what is said. The boy will give me a crown. And what is given can be taken away.” Lord Balon tossed the letter onto the brazier, atop the necklace. The parchment curled, blackened, and took flame.

Theon was aghast. “Have you gone mad?”

His father laid a stinging backhand across his cheek. “Mind your tongue. You are not in Winterfell now, and I am not Robb the Boy, that you should speak to me so. I am the Greyjoy, Lord Reaper of Pyke, King of Salt and Rock, Son of the Sea Wind, and no man gives me a crown. I pay the iron price. I will take my crown, as Urron Redhand did five thousand years ago.”

Theon edged backward, away from the sudden fury in his father’s tone. “Take it, then,” he spat, his cheek still tingling. “Call yourself King of the Iron islands, no one will care... until the wars are over, and the victor looks about and spies the old fool perched off his shore with an iron crown on his head.” - This last part is all true, as soon as someone won the war(excluding Robb) they would put down the Iron Islands again. If Robb had won northern independence, he would of just kicked out the Ironborn, but most likely not try and invade like Robert did.

No where in there are the exact words in the letter. What the letter says is that Theon speaks for Robb. He(Balon) just feels disrespected because Robb beat him(Balon) to the punch of crowning Balon first.

Yes you are anit-Stark biased. I've read through all your post here, and none give Robb or any Starks credit. Only now after I call you out on it do you want to give him any sort of credit. And now all of a sudden you don't have a problem with him looking for allies, when before you were saying he was asking other high lords to win the war for him.

Robb wasn't winning the war? Oh that's right Tywin was.

It was an offer, attack the Lannisters and become king of your own domain. That is not disrespectful, he was just too butt hurt about losing the first rebellion to even consider an alliance with a Stark.

7)Yes they are and I would say that most peasants couldn't give a flying fuck about any of the lords.

8)“I am their lawful prince,” Theon said stiffly.

“By the laws of the green lands, you might be. But we make our own laws here, or have you forgotten?”

According to their own laws, you need to be elected king through a kingsmoot, you can't just claim it. And I saw no mention of one that elected Balon king. He's in that position ONLY because of the "greenlanders" laws. So it's funny he looks down on it when in fact he's only in power because of it.

9)Robert could just as lawfully retained both castles for his sons, and made Joffrey the Prince of Dragonstone and Tommen the Lord of Storm's End. Never says for himself, but for his sons. Not the same thing as keeping them for himself. And also during RR SE was under siege the whole time yet he(Robert) never went to lift the siege.

10)Robert had superior numbers and resources and used them to crush the rebellion. Stannis Baratheon, his brother and theMaster of Ships, along with Paxter Redwyne, was able to catch and smash the Iron Fleet, captained by Victarion Greyjoy, in a significant battle off the coast of Fair Isle. This allowed Robert's forces to cross to the Iron Islands.^[10] Aeron Greyjoy was lost at sea during the battle, then captured and spent the rest of the war beneath Casterly Rock.^[10]

Stannis also subdued Great Wyk in his brother's name,^[11] while Ser Barristan Selmy led the attack on Old Wyk. The main battle was on the island of Pyke, led by Robert himself and his friend Lord Eddard Stark. The nearby Botley castle was destroyed, as was the town of Lordsport beneath it, before the main attack on the castle of Pyke itself was launched. Robert's forces assaulted the southern wall with siege engines, finally shattering the main watchtower there and bringing parts of the surrounding wall down.^[9] Maron Greyjoy, the second of Balon's three sons, was killed in the breach. Thoros of Myr was first through the breach wielding a sword coated in wildfire.^[13] Jorah Mormont was not far behind him, and earned a knighthood for his bravery that day. The fighting in the castle was very fierce, but eventually the castle was taken. Balon Greyjoy was forced to swear fealty once more to the Iron Throne, and his surviving son, the nine-year-old Theon, was given into the care of Lord Stark as a hostage to ensure Balon's good behavior. Robert's forces were from Lannister, Stark, Baratheon, Arryn, Tully, and Tyrell. Seems like a lot of people were involved. But of course it was only Robert and Ned that were there. And Robb did get himself killed, although I wonder in the Freys would of changed their minds if Robb had showed up and said that he was still going to marry a Frey and disown his first wife.

11)It was early but I don't remember if it was before or after Renly's death. And I think two of those proposals included Dorne, one would send the prince and the other was the princess. LF was the Vale for sure.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

2)Never took Torrehn's Square IIRC. Just laid siege to it and then either ran, or lost the battle outside.

The Ironborn still hold Torrehns Square.

[Ser RoddyRuinuous]

As has been said before, Stark bias is written into the story. We have Stark bias the same way we have Hobbit bias in LOTR: The story starts with the Starks, continues through Arya, Sansa, Bran, and Jon (POVs still extant at the end of ADwD), and will presumably end with, you guessed it, the Starks. GRRM's genius is to bring in the Lannisters as POV characters. Rather than being some external evil, we get inside their heads, and know what they're thinking as they frustrate our protagonists, who turn out not to be so purely good as we thought. And the antagonists are no longer as purely evil. GRRM thus builds dramatic tension by letting us know that our 'heroes' the Starks can and do fail, and might not ever win. In a standard fantasy, e.g. Riftwar (which I do enjoy greatly) you do not ever really doubt that Pug will win. Oh, he will see some reverses, that's for sure, but Pug will surely win. In ASOIAF, you don't ever know whether the Starks will win or not, and even if they do, what will the cost to them be? The only thing that is certain is that we have Stark POVs from start to finish. That, and winter is coming.

[sweetsunray]

But I think you hit on a salient point that's intrinsic to a story told from a series of POVs-- it's essentially a series of "distortions," and we're totally encouraged/ manipulated (in a good way) into seeing this distortion through, not only Stark eyes, but very specific Stark eyes, as well as Tyrion's. Who, if I may posit, contributes to the initial "Stark good/ Lannisters bad" dichotomy in that he seems to be separate from and critical of his own family and makes nice with the Starks, and specifically a "Stark" we're particularly positioned to sympathize with (Jon). The first 10 chapters we get would be a hugely interesting case study (Bran I-Jon II). Notably, this doesn't include Sansa POVs (she's not until the 15th POV), and does include "it should have been you" (Jon II). Which, I believe, goes a long way in setting up our sympathies, how we navigate and interpret later events, and how we align things like our moral compasses and values applied.

ETA: but you're talking more about plot ramifications, and I agree with that too. I don't know if the clues about the Lysa plot were that "obvious," but yes, looking beyond Stark POVs we can see them.

I agree: a POV story (even if it are multiple POVs) is a) nothing but a bunch of unreliable narrators and b ) causes the reader to sympathize, identify and get sweeped up into bias. Even with a 3rd person, reliable narrator people automatically tend to sympathize with the protagonist, because it's part of the reader's and writer's expectations. And when it is a story read/watched by a lot of people, then in my experience you easily get supporter/fan factions. Something similar occurred with the series LOST. Sawyer versus the doctor, let alone the shippers who wanted Kate to end up with either one or the other. They even had voter threads about who was to debate who about which character (google my username and Locke for example). Several now classic movies and books use the POV narrative to create bias and disguise what's real (Fight Club). And it's a neat trick, because most people assume that what we read or see on a screen is presented as a factual event within the fictional story, even when narrated by one of the characters in the story. One of the classics (at least in Dutch language) I know is "The Dark Room of Damocles," about a guy who appears to be working for the resistance the whole time during WWII. But towards the end there is an identity "mishap" when the Netherlands are liberated from German occupation, and he's identified as a collaborator, put in prison and tried for it. All the while he tries to prove he is who he says he is, but all the evidence turns literally to dust, is dead or disappears. As a reader you disbelief the accusations, as much as the protagonist, and utterly believe he is who he thinks he is, because you read all the resistance actions he supposedly undertook. But as you backtrack through the book, you can't find any independent confirmation of it. It remains a mystery: was there truly an identity mishap with someone who looks like him, or did you read the fantasies of a disturbed mind? The author Frederik Hermans refused to ever disclose the author's truth.

It's not obvious, but it's mentioned twice in a row to Cat that Jon intended to foster out his son. The first time by the Vale's Maester shortly before Tyrion's trial. Cat dismisses the maester's nervous, but voluntary disclosure of this, claiming she knows better - that it was the king who decided to foster out Robert after Jon died. The maester insists Jon had decided about it before he died, but then they're interrupted with the start of the trial, and Cat forgets about it. When she leaves the Vale with her uncle in her next POV chapter, her uncle mentions it too. Once again Cat initially dismisses it, insisting it was the king's decision after Jon's death, but the Blackfish repeats it, and then Cat pauses and wonders for a short moment whether it's true and what its significance might be.

[nastydream]

Why does this thread need a part 3 lol

[Lee-Sensei]

1)Robb had won every battle to date, Tywin was cut off from the Westerlands, Tywin had zero allies. Robb lost because of his on ignorance, not because of anything Tywin did.

2)Never took Torrehn's Square IIRC. Just laid siege to it and then either ran, or lost the battle outside.

4)Jon was going to send Robert away, yes, and she was upset about it, yes, but it was LF's idea/plan to kill Jon and she did it because he told her too. He may have used Robert as bait for Lysa to do it, but it was his doing all along.

5)If generals have to lay out every detail of what they want from their commanders(what to do and not to do) it would take years for wars to even begin. Edmure was given an order(hold RR). Edmure say an opportunity to strike at the Lannisters and took it. Those were not Robb's orders. Yes, if Robb's plan was to lead Tywin back to the west that information should of been given to Edmure, but that doesn't make what Edmure did right. He took the initiative, which lots of soldiers and commanders still do today. It just happened to turn out bad for him, and if the RW never happened I'd be willing to bet that Edmure would've no longer tried anything outside of his direct orders again.

6)Lord Balon broke the seal and unfolded the parchment. His black eyes flicked back and forth. “So the boy would give me a crown again,” he said, “and all I need do is destroy his enemies.” His thin lips twisted in a smile.

“By now Robb is at the Golden Tooth,” Theon said. “Once it falls, he’ll be through the hills in a day. Lord Tywin’s host is at Harrenhal, cut off from the west. The Kingslayer is a captive at Riverrun. Only Ser Stafford Lannister and the raw green levies he’s been gathering remain to oppose Robb in the west. Ser Stafford will put himself between Robb’s army and Lannisport, which means the city will be undefended when we descend on it by sea. If the gods are with us, even Casterly Rock itself may fall before the Lannisters so much as realize that we are upon them.”

Lord Balon grunted. “Casterly Rock has never fallen.”

“Until now.” Theon smiled. And how sweet that will be.

His father did not return the smile. “So this is why Robb Stark sends you back to me, after so long? So you might win my consent to th-is-pl-anof his? “

“It is my plan, not Robb’s,” Theon said proudly. Mine, as the victory will be mine, and in time the crown. “I will lead the attack myself, if it please you. As my reward I would ask that you grant me Casterly Rock for my own seat, once we have taken it from the Lannisters.” With the Rock, he could hold Lannisport and the golden lands of the west. It would mean wealth and power such as House Greyjoy had never known.

“You reward yourself handsomely for a notion and a few lines of scribbling.” His father read the letter again. “The pup says nothing about a reward. Only that you speak for him, and I am to listen, and give him my sails and swords, and in return he will give me a crown.” His flinty eyes lifted to meet his son’s. “He will give me a crown,” he repeated, his voice growing sharp.

“A poor choice of words, what is meant is-”

“What is meant is what is said. The boy will give me a crown. And what is given can be taken away.” Lord Balon tossed the letter onto the brazier, atop the necklace. The parchment curled, blackened, and took flame.

Theon was aghast. “Have you gone mad?”

His father laid a stinging backhand across his cheek. “Mind your tongue. You are not in Winterfell now, and I am not Robb the Boy, that you should speak to me so. I am the Greyjoy, Lord Reaper of Pyke, King of Salt and Rock, Son of the Sea Wind, and no man gives me a crown. I pay the iron price. I will take my crown, as Urron Redhand did five thousand years ago.”

Theon edged backward, away from the sudden fury in his father’s tone. “Take it, then,” he spat, his cheek still tingling. “Call yourself King of the Iron islands, no one will care... until the wars are over, and the victor looks about and spies the old fool perched off his shore with an iron crown on his head.” - This last part is all true, as soon as someone won the war(excluding Robb) they would put down the Iron Islands again. If Robb had won northern independence, he would of just kicked out the Ironborn, but most likely not try and invade like Robert did.

No where in there are the exact words in the letter. What the letter says is that Theon speaks for Robb. He(Balon) just feels disrespected because Robb beat him(Balon) to the punch of crowning Balon first.

Yes you are anit-Stark biased. I've read through all your post here, and none give Robb or any Starks credit. Only now after I call you out on it do you want to give him any sort of credit. And now all of a sudden you don't have a problem with him looking for allies, when before you were saying he was asking other high lords to win the war for him.

Robb wasn't winning the war? Oh that's right Tywin was.

It was an offer, attack the Lannisters and become king of your own domain. That is not disrespectful, he was just too butt hurt about losing the first rebellion to even consider an alliance with a Stark.

7)Yes they are and I would say that most peasants couldn't give a flying fuck about any of the lords.

8)“I am their lawful prince,” Theon said stiffly.

“By the laws of the green lands, you might be. But we make our own laws here, or have you forgotten?”

According to their own laws, you need to be elected king through a kingsmoot, you can't just claim it. And I saw no mention of one that elected Balon king. He's in that position ONLY because of the "greenlanders" laws. So it's funny he looks down on it when in fact he's only in power because of it.

9)Robert could just as lawfully retained both castles for his sons, and made Joffrey the Prince of Dragonstone and Tommen the Lord of Storm's End. Never says for himself, but for his sons. Not the same thing as keeping them for himself. And also during RR SE was under siege the whole time yet he(Robert) never went to lift the siege.

10)Robert had superior numbers and resources and used them to crush the rebellion. Stannis Baratheon, his brother and theMaster of Ships, along with Paxter Redwyne, was able to catch and smash the Iron Fleet, captained by Victarion Greyjoy, in a significant battle off the coast of Fair Isle. This allowed Robert's forces to cross to the Iron Islands.^[10] Aeron Greyjoy was lost at sea during the battle, then captured and spent the rest of the war beneath Casterly Rock.^[10]

Stannis also subdued Great Wyk in his brother's name,^[11] while Ser Barristan Selmy led the attack on Old Wyk. The main battle was on the island of Pyke, led by Robert himself and his friend Lord Eddard Stark. The nearby Botley castle was destroyed, as was the town of Lordsport beneath it, before the main attack on the castle of Pyke itself was launched. Robert's forces assaulted the southern wall with siege engines, finally shattering the main watchtower there and bringing parts of the surrounding wall down.^[9] Maron Greyjoy, the second of Balon's three sons, was killed in the breach. Thoros of Myr was first through the breach wielding a sword coated in wildfire.^[13] Jorah Mormont was not far behind him, and earned a knighthood for his bravery that day. The fighting in the castle was very fierce, but eventually the castle was taken. Balon Greyjoy was forced to swear fealty once more to the Iron Throne, and his surviving son, the nine-year-old Theon, was given into the care of Lord Stark as a hostage to ensure Balon's good behavior. Robert's forces were from Lannister, Stark, Baratheon, Arryn, Tully, and Tyrell. Seems like a lot of people were involved. But of course it was only Robert and Ned that were there. And Robb did get himself killed, although I wonder in the Freys would of changed their minds if Robb had showed up and said that he was still going to marry a Frey and disown his first wife.

11)It was early but I don't remember if it was before or after Renly's death. And I think two of those proposals included Dorne, one would send the prince and the other was the princess. LF was the Vale for sure.

1) Winning tactical victories is fine (almost all of his victories were tactical), but it's not the same as winning a war and wouldn't you know it... he ended up losing.

2) They fought and were beaten back by superior numbers and took it again when Rodrik Cassel went to take back Winterfell.

3) He gave her the idea, but her primary reason was because she didn't want her son to be taken away from her. Which is a fine reason to stay out of a war she didn't care about.

4) Edmure was key to the success of Robb's plan. Robb failed to let him in on his plan. But that's irrelevant, as I'm pretty sure he was just trying to railroad Edmure into marrying a Frey.

5) Nope. There are only two Fleets powerful enough to take on the Iron Islands. The Fleet of the Tyrells and Stannis' Fleet and both of them were at war. Now the Iron Islands are raising hell in the Reach and the Reachlords are frantic.

6) Robb didn't crown Balon, because he doesn't have that authority. It was arrogant. Far to arrogant for someone begging for allies.

7) And you're biased for the Starks. I give the Starks credit where credit is due. And to be fair, in ASoS Robb was pretty much begging for the Vale to come out and win his war for him. I've said that Robb is one of the best commanders in the story. Ned is one of the best fathers in the story and a great Lord. And Sansa and Cat are among my favorite characters. I just call it like I see it.

8) I disagree. I'm fairly certain that Ned was loved by his smallfolk, and I suspect the same thing of Jon Arryn. It was said that Robert was popular with the smallfolk too.

9) The Kingsmoot is only called when someone unacceptable takes the crown. Like the Iron Islanders not wanting a woman as their overlord. Balon was accepted as King of the Iron Islands twice. That's a fact. Deal with it.

10) Get this, pal. Joffrey was born 3 years after Robert became King and Tommen was born 9 years after he became King. That means that they would both be kept by him. A King doesn't have to give up his castles. He may well want to keep them as summer homes. No one can force him to give up his inheritance (Stormlands) or his rights by conquest (Dragonstone and the Red Keep). He has every right to keep them for himself. He'd give them to his sons, because he's not immortal. One day he'd die and he has to pass it on to his kids.

11) Maybe I'm mixing it up with the show.

[Kyoshi]

How on earth did Modelex's rather trollish OP manage to spawn 80 pages of discussion?

Wow. Just wow.

Anyway. I only read the original post in the original thread and I confess myself impressed. It's one of those things one thinks about but never wants to voice for fear of being attacked and shunned. I'm glad the OP raised this issue.

I love SOME Starks but I'm able to acknowledge when their actions are questionable. Like Robb and his war, Sansa and her infatuation with Joffrey, Arya and her killing "spree". I didn't read all the posts nd know these things have probably been mentioned so I'm sorry for that. But yeah, I liked the original post and thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

[Lee-Sensei]

1) Winning tactical victories is fine (almost all of his victories were tactical), but it's not the same as winning a war and wouldn't you know it... he ended up losing.

2) They fought and were beaten back by superior numbers and took it again when Rodrik Cassel went to take back Winterfell.

3) He gave her the idea, but her primary reason was because she didn't want her son to be taken away from her. Which is a fine reason to stay out of a war she didn't care about.

4) Edmure was key to the success of Robb's plan. Robb failed to let him in on his plan. But that's irrelevant, as I'm pretty sure he was just trying to railroad Edmure into marrying a Frey.

5) Nope. There are only two Fleets powerful enough to take on the Iron Islands. The Fleet of the Tyrells and Stannis' Fleet and both of them were at war. Now the Iron Islands are raising hell in the Reach and the Reachlords are frantic.

6) Robb didn't crown Balon, because he doesn't have that authority. It was arrogant. Far to arrogant for someone begging for allies.

7) And you're biased for the Starks. I give the Starks credit where credit is due. And to be fair, in ASoS Robb was pretty much begging for the Vale to come out and win his war for him. I've said that Robb is one of the best commanders in the story. Ned is one of the best fathers in the story and a great Lord. And Sansa and Cat are among my favorite characters. I just call it like I see it.

8) I disagree. I'm fairly certain that Ned was loved by his smallfolk, and I suspect the same thing of Jon Arryn. It was said that Robert was popular with the smallfolk too.

9) The Kingsmoot is only called when someone unacceptable takes the crown. Like the Iron Islanders not wanting a woman as their overlord. Balon was accepted as King of the Iron Islands twice. That's a fact. Deal with it.

10) Get this, pal. Joffrey was born 3 years after Robert became King and Tommen was born 9 years after he became King. That means that they would both be kept by him. A King doesn't have to give up his castles. He may well want to keep them as summer homes. No one can force him to give up his inheritance (Stormlands) or his rights by conquest (Dragonstone and the Red Keep). He has every right to keep them for himself. He'd give them to his sons, because he's not immortal. One day he'd die and he has to pass it on to his kids.

11) Maybe I'm mixing it up with the show.

[TheLastStark]

1) Winning tactical victories is fine (almost all of his victories were tactical), but it's not the same as winning a war and wouldn't you know it... he ended up losing.

2) They fought and were beaten back by superior numbers and took it again when Rodrik Cassel went to take back Winterfell.

3) He gave her the idea, but her primary reason was because she didn't want her son to be taken away from her. Which is a fine reason to stay out of a war she didn't care about.

4) Edmure was key to the success of Robb's plan. Robb failed to let him in on his plan. But that's irrelevant, as I'm pretty sure he was just trying to railroad Edmure into marrying a Frey.

5) Nope. There are only two Fleets powerful enough to take on the Iron Islands. The Fleet of the Tyrells and Stannis' Fleet and both of them were at war. Now the Iron Islands are raising hell in the Reach and the Reachlords are frantic.

6) Robb didn't crown Balon, because he doesn't have that authority. It was arrogant. Far to arrogant for someone begging for allies.

7) And you're biased for the Starks. I give the Starks credit where credit is due. And to be fair, in ASoS Robb was pretty much begging for the Vale to come out and win his war for him. I've said that Robb is one of the best commanders in the story. Ned is one of the best fathers in the story and a great Lord. And Sansa and Cat are among my favorite characters. I just call it like I see it.

8) I disagree. I'm fairly certain that Ned was loved by his smallfolk, and I suspect the same thing of Jon Arryn. It was said that Robert was popular with the smallfolk too.

9) The Kingsmoot is only called when someone unacceptable takes the crown. Like the Iron Islanders not wanting a woman as their overlord. Balon was accepted as King of the Iron Islands twice. That's a fact. Deal with it.

10) Get this, pal. Joffrey was born 3 years after Robert became King and Tommen was born 9 years after he became King. That means that they would both be kept by him. A King doesn't have to give up his castles. He may well want to keep them as summer homes. No one can force him to give up his inheritance (Stormlands) or his rights by conquest (Dragonstone and the Red Keep). He has every right to keep them for himself. He'd give them to his sons, because he's not immortal. One day he'd die and he has to pass it on to his kids.

11) Maybe I'm mixing it up with the show.

1)If your definition of losing a war = dying by treachery, then are you saying Renly, Balon, and Joffery all lost the war too?

2)Ok, that makes sense.

3)Yes she didn't want her son taken away, but without LF's influence she most likely doesn't kill him and loses Robert. LF manipulated her and without him I don't see her making any moves by herself.

4)IF Robbs plan all along was to trap Tywin in the west, then yes he should of told Edmure, but I'm not even convinced that was his plan from the get go. He may have thought of it while in the west and even then should of sent a raven to RR. But it doesn't change the fact that Edmure did more than what his orders were.

5)The Redwynes never marched with Renly or Stannis.

6)You keep saying he didn't have the authority, yet contradict yourself by saying Robb was a king. If he was a king then he does have the authority.

7) Robb proved to be a very incompetent politician. Prussian General Clausewitz said war is politics by other means and Robb didn't seem to understand that. If not, it's Robb's fault. Robb got his ass spanked.(Which never actually happened). Balon isn't Robb's vassal. Balon isn't Robbs subject or slave. Robb wanted other Highlords to win his war for him. Yes I can see where you gave him credit. You have never said Robb was one of the best commanders, your just trying to cover up your anti-Stark bias. Too late. And again, not liking certain characters doesn't make me Stark-biased. Balon held a grudge for no reason(stupid), had a plan to get revenge for his dead sons(one killed by Mallister the other by Robert's siege) by attacking the north(again stupid)? When people are stupid and make up excuses for their actions I tend to not like them. Ned never killed Balon's children, that was something he made up in his own head. And if you want me to break down why his plan to take the north is stupid and wouldn't work I will. Lysa is mentally unstable and does whatever LF tells her to do. And she got what she deserved, killed by the man who she loved and was to idiotic to see he never loved her.

9)Initially, the ancient title of High King of the Isles was selected at Nagga's hill from among the minor salt kings and rock kings from individual islands. Can't claim to want to live by the old ways and then not call a kingsmoot which is how all of their kings were picked before King Urron Greyiron.

10)By your logic every castle and keep in the 7 kingdoms is his by rights, and the same for the Targaryens before.

11)Most likely, easy to mix up.

[Bryden Tully]

minor nitpick, wasn't the kingsmoot only called because Aeron was afraid of Euron claiming the crown or are my events muddled up?

[JoeyBanana]

minor nitpick, wasn't the kingsmoot only called because Aeron was afraid of Euron claiming the crown or are my events muddled up?

Not exclusively, no. It was also a way to usurp Asha's rights as he didn't want a woman ruling the Iron Islands. He thought of it as a win-win situation as he expected both the woman and the godless man to lose against Victarion.

[LordStoneheart]

Why does this thread need a part 3 lol

strawmen burn longest

[Lee-Sensei]

minor nitpick, wasn't the kingsmoot only called because Aeron was afraid of Euron claiming the crown or are my events muddled up?

The Kingsmoot was called Theon was believed to be dead and Asha is a woman.

1)If your definition of losing a war = dying by treachery, then are you saying Renly, Balon, and Joffery all lost the war too?

2)Ok, that makes sense.

3)Yes she didn't want her son taken away, but without LF's influence she most likely doesn't kill him and loses Robert. LF manipulated her and without him I don't see her making any moves by herself.

4)IF Robbs plan all along was to trap Tywin in the west, then yes he should of told Edmure, but I'm not even convinced that was his plan from the get go. He may have thought of it while in the west and even then should of sent a raven to RR. But it doesn't change the fact that Edmure did more than what his orders were.

5)The Redwynes never marched with Renly or Stannis.

6)You keep saying he didn't have the authority, yet contradict yourself by saying Robb was a king. If he was a king then he does have the authority.

7) Robb proved to be a very incompetent politician. Prussian General Clausewitz said war is politics by other means and Robb didn't seem to understand that. If not, it's Robb's fault. Robb got his ass spanked.(Which never actually happened). Balon isn't Robb's vassal. Balon isn't Robbs subject or slave. Robb wanted other Highlords to win his war for him. Yes I can see where you gave him credit. You have never said Robb was one of the best commanders, your just trying to cover up your anti-Stark bias. Too late. And again, not liking certain characters doesn't make me Stark-biased. Balon held a grudge for no reason(stupid), had a plan to get revenge for his dead sons(one killed by Mallister the other by Robert's siege) by attacking the north(again stupid)? When people are stupid and make up excuses for their actions I tend to not like them. Ned never killed Balon's children, that was something he made up in his own head. And if you want me to break down why his plan to take the north is stupid and wouldn't work I will. Lysa is mentally unstable and does whatever LF tells her to do. And she got what she deserved, killed by the man who she loved and was to idiotic to see he never loved her.

9)Initially, the ancient title of High King of the Isles was selected at Nagga's hill from among the minor salt kings and rock kings from individual islands. Can't claim to want to live by the old ways and then not call a kingsmoot which is how all of their kings were picked before King Urron Greyiron.

10)By your logic every castle and keep in the 7 kingdoms is his by rights, and the same for the Targaryens before.

11)Most likely, easy to mix up.

1) Well, what else am I supposed to call it. Robb did lose the war. Stannis lost too although he's still alive so he can come back and try again later. Renly didn't even get to start really and the Iron Islands are still at war, so they haven't lost yet.

2) I agree that she probably wouldn't have thought of killing Jon without LF. I don't think she's smart enough to successfully plot Jon's death. But even you have to admit, that staying out of the war for her son isn't selfish, right?

3) I'm not convinced that he had that plan at the time. I think he wanted to guilt Edmure into marrying a Frey. All I'm saying is that a commander needs to give his subordinates clear and concise orders. Robb knows what Edmure's like. He can't expect Edmure to sit at Riverrun while his people suffer.

4) That's true, but only because the Lannisters had Redwyne hostages.

5) Robb was the King of the North and the Riverlands. He has no authority over the Iron Islands. Likewise, Balon was the King of the Iron Islands. If he told Robb, take Casterly Rock and I'll give you a crown I'd say that was arrogant and condescending too. Robb's authority lies in the North and the Riverlands. Balon's authority is on the Iron Islands. That's what I'm saying.

6) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/115455-why-is-robb-criticized-for-using-his-allies/?p=6113537

Ned was with Robert. It wasn't just him. Lysa stayed out of the war for her son and has no obligation to join Robb's succession war.

7) Yes he can. And he did. Can you show evidence of the Iron Islanders not accepting the Greyjoys as their Kings?

8) Not really. The Targaryens were killed or exiled so Dragonstone and Red Keep can be kept by Robert. Likewise, Tywin wiped out the Castamere's and gave their castle to the Spicers.

[Modesty Lannister]

Why is this bloodshed between camp Stark and camp Greyjoy allowed to continue on this thread? Why is OP tolerating this hijacking? I do not have anything against this verbal slaughter per se, but it is not relevant for this thread. Can we have a ceasefire, pls?

[UVA]

Why is this bloodshed between camp Stark and camp Greyjoy allowed to continue on this thread? Why is OP tolerating this hijacking? I do not have anything against this verbal slaughter per se, but it is not relevant for this thread. Can we have a ceasefire, pls?

Right? You ought to check out OnionAhaiReborn's Theon thread http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/116323-The-Theonese-Knot/page__view__findpost__p__6176840

For it fulfills the aims of what this thread should've been.

[smashedhalo]

My issue about the orders give to Edd. While yes, a commander Should give a endgame to his subordinates at no point does he Have too. The best commanders in history will tell a subordinate only the battleplan that is in their scope. This is to prevent a subordinate from giving information in the event of capture. Ole Edd was shown to lead his troops in battle so his risk of capture is higher than his need to know. He was told to hold his region, at best bloody the enemy, but hold them there. He went above and beyond his orders by taking the Harrenhall strong point. Delay, pick your battles, raid supply lines, and above all else hold the line. Not move the line.

[LordBloodraven]

The IT is the one who saved the North's ass when the North and West couldn't deal with Dagon

Care to develop? A quote? Anything?

[John Doe]

"Dagon bearded the lion in his den and tied the direwolf's tail in knots, but even Dagon could not defeat the dragons."

[Narvi]

How on earth did Modelex's rather trollish OP manage to spawn 80 pages of discussion?

It's what good trolls do.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I actually don't think it means that Dagon was defeated by the Dragons. Victarion is thinking how he was ambitious but only took on two realms while Victarion plans on conquering the whole realm.

The full quote:

Almost a hundred years had passed since Dagon Greyjoy sat the Seastone Chair, but the ironborn still told tales of his raids and battles. In Dagon's day a weak king sat the Iron Throne, his rheumy eyes fixed across the narrow sea where bastards and exiles plotted rebellion. So forth from Pyke Lord Dagon sailed, to make the Sunset Sea his own. "He bearded the lion in his den and tied the direwolf's tail in knots, but even Dagon could not defeat the dragons. But I shall make the dragon queen mine own. She will share my bed and bear me many mighty sons."

He mentions the weak King, I doubt he would have thought him so weak it it was the Targs and not the Starks and Lannisters who eventually beat Dagon.