Dorne Appreciation Thread

[Dany Girl]

I feel this so hard. They really took the sexy times part of Oberyn and ran with it, to the detriment, I think, of the other (perhaps more important) aspects of his character. It's a pity too, because I think Pedro could have easily done amazing with those other personality characteristics.

BUT NOPE BOOBS

Oberyn is such a deep character in the books, he has a very rich history. He was a prince who served as a sellsword in Essos, lost his sister/best friend, raised his daughters to be strong capable women (although he kinda emotionally damaged at least a few of them), he really does encourage them to be exactly who they want to be (Sarella at the Citidale, Lady Lance, ect). He's such a complex, well-rounded character and to reduce him to "orgie guy" was just unacceptable.

Ps- how did we get this far without discussing Sarella/Alleras? Come on, that girl is a badass! Not many women would have stone ovaries needed to go under cover in an all male organization. Look what happened to the girl who did that at the Night's Watch for example of what could happen. But Sarella, those are some damn stone ovaries she's got. Not only does she seem completely not afraid of being caught, but it's actually a game to her! I can't wait to see what she's up to! I know it's gonna be good- all the Sand Snakes (and Arianne) are up to some history changing shit! That's why I like them so much, their such dark horses. Coming in at the 11th hour and they're going to fuck up so many people's plans! Love it!

[Dany Girl]

THIS. I loved Pedro as Oberyn too, I just hated how they wrote him for the screen. Everything was over the top sexual when that was only a part of his character, and not even the most interesting part.

I think Pedro was the correct casting for the character. He had the right swagger for Oberyn. Too bad the writers fucked it up. Oberyn in KL is almost undercover badass. He's not really showing his hand or his goals overtly. But in the show, orgie dude is so transparent. A guy who was a freaking Essosi Sellsword would know how to be less conspicuous.

[lareine]

I think Pedro was the correct casting for the character. He had the right swagger for Oberyn. Too bad the writers fucked it up. Oberyn in KL is almost undercover badass. He's not really showing his hand or his goals overtly. But in the show, orgie dude is so transparent. A guy who was a freaking Essosi Sellsword would know how to be less conspicuous.

You're 100% right. Pedro is a strong actor and he did a great job with what he was given to work with. It's just a shame they wrote Oberyn so narrowly. Like you said, he's one of the richest, most interesting characters in the series. He's a prince, he's been a Essosi sellsword, he's studied at the Citadel and almost forged a maester's chain, he's a badass warrior who loved his sister. They had so much amazing material to work with and they barely used any of it!

The last straw for me was at Joffrey's wedding when they showed Oberyn and Ellaria checking out the crotch of the female contortionist.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Everything about Oberyn. Fucking up his introduction, "finding" him in a brothel. Like the first thing Oberyn would do when coming to KL to get vengeance for Elia is go to a brothel. Ya, dude likes sex, but he had more important things to do in KL.

lol at his conversation with Varys. "Have you meet my paramour? She's at the brothel". Or something like that. I mean, wouldn't she be living in KL? with him? Why is she there? Are they poor and she works part time now??

Then people get mad when I suggest HBO has turned Dorne into Porne.

[lareine]

lol at his conversation with Varys. "Have you meet my paramour? She's at the brothel". Or something like that. I mean, wouldn't she be living in KL? with him? Why is she there? Are they poor and she works part time now??

That's a good one! If that were the case, I guess it would make Oberyn her pimp.

:lmao:

[Dornish Vinegar]

Oberyn is such a deep character in the books, he has a very rich history. He was a prince who served as a sellsword in Essos, lost his sister/best friend, raised his daughters to be strong capable women (although he kinda emotionally damaged at least a few of them), he really does encourage them to be exactly who they want to be (Sarella at the Citidale, Lady Lance, ect). He's such a complex, well-rounded character and to reduce him to "orgie guy" was just unacceptable.

Ps- how did we get this far without discussing Sarella/Alleras? Come on, that girl is a badass! Not many women would have stone ovaries needed to go under cover in an all male organization. Look what happened to the girl who did that at the Night's Watch for example of what could happen. But Sarella, those are some damn stone ovaries she's got. Not only does she seem completely not afraid of being caught, but it's actually a game to her! I can't wait to see what she's up to! I know it's gonna be good- all the Sand Snakes (and Arianne) are up to some history changing shit! That's why I like them so much, their such dark horses. Coming in at the 11th hour and they're going to fuck up so many people's plans! Love it!

Totally agree buddy, totally agree. Sarella is great! She's got stone ovaries indeed, she's so damn confident strutting around Oldtown like she owns the place. Such a badass. I can't wait to see what she's up to either, and see what shit Nym and Tyene fuck up in the best way possible in King's Landing! And oh snap, Arianne, if you've read her Winds chapter, is she in for some history-making shit indeed. These characters do NOT get enough love, I tell ya.

They live by one motto--Take No Shit--and it is the best thing in the world

(cough part of the reason I'm terrified to see how HBO handles them cough cough)

lol at his conversation with Varys. "Have you meet my paramour? She's at the brothel". Or something like that. I mean, wouldn't she be living in KL? with him? Why is she there? Are they poor and she works part time now??

Then people get mad when I suggest HBO has turned Dorne into Porne.

Do people really get mad at your saying that HBO's turned Dorne into Porne?! I haven't been following the GoT forums diligently but I have NO idea how anyone could argue against that. It's like right there...that's what they're doing, in front of your eyes, onscreen.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Argh, I found the quote: "My paramour, Ellaria, she would find you very interesting. You should come to the brothel and meet her".

This innocent quote proves that Elaria indeed lives in the Brothel, or works there. Because Varys and Oberyn are both in KL, and hence, he should say something like "you should come to our quarters and meet her". But noooo... he HAS to LEAVE KL in order to meet her. So, either she has moved there or she's found a work there and Varys might visit her during office hours :/

Or maybe Elaria is some kind of bomb that might explode and kill everybody if she doesn't have sex every two hours. Or her heart probably stops if she doesn't orgasm regularly. And as Oberyn is now working as a Master of Whatever, she needs to stay in the brothel. "As a precaution".

Do people really get mad at your saying that HBO's turned Dorne into Porne?! I haven't been following the GoT forums diligently but I have NO idea how anyone could argue against that. It's like right there...that's what they're doing, in front of your eyes, onscreen.

No. That's why they already did. See above.

And nope, it's not that they are literally mad, I was kinda joking. But yes, I've read people defending Dorne in S5. I really lost all hopes with Dorne and everything else, to be honest.

[Danelle]

I think Arianne and Doran have a bit of a similar arc in aFfC (and one similar to that of Harry and Dumblebore in Order of the Phoenix :P ) in that they both have to deal with the fact that they massively and and irreversibly fucked up.

Arianne saw a letter in her father's solar when she was fourteen and didn't understand it's context, and everything she's done since then proceeded from that false (but perfectly understandable, to be fair) assumption. And now she feels like an idiot, she feels guilty for hating her brother for no reason, and she this strong feeling that she has to fix what she broke.

Doran on the other hand learned that he's not as smart as he though he was. He thought he could control people and predict their actions and he could. Big time. And I think he was confronted which his failure with his daughter. In not giving her a good education he failed Dorne as much as he failed her. And she acted out because he failed to treat her like his heir. It spiralled out of control at that point with the he can't trust her because she'll tell her boyfriend and she's telling her rapidly increasing list of boyfriends that her father's a meanie face because he doesn't trust her, etc, but yeah, it comes down to he thought she was going to go off and being the official Targ baby-maker, so he didn't bother to treat he as his heir, or even give her a good reason for doing that.

I hope they both learned their lesson. Although, yeah, the Quentyn plot.... I see it as an act of desperation to save his original plan that had already fallen apart.

I'm stuck by how similar to Oberyn Arianne is in many ways. I mean, Myrcella-gate is totally something Oberyn would have done after Elia was killed, for example. I think now she's developing in a way that makes her a more happy mixture of Oberyn and Doran, still very passionate and hot-headed, but in a more behind-the-scenes manipulative way. Maybe, I hope? I think without the gap, we would have met her a little further down his path than in her raw state.

And, of course, she's a lot like Oberyn in another way we all appreciate.

We no nothing about Elia, other than that Oberyn liked her and that her own husband seems to have had her in the friend zone. She could be anything we want at this point.

Not knowing Doran, Elia, and Oberyn's mother's name is bugging me almost as much as not knowing Ned's mother's name did.

Mariya Martell: dude. :wub:

I need to reread Order of the Phoenix, I have forgot almost everything that happens in that book...

I think that Arianne misunderstood the context of the letter, but I cannot blame her for that. Anyone else in her place, would have felt that something was taken away from him/her for no reason at all.

As for Doran, the one time in his life he chose to follow his heart, the result was a devastating marriage, which led to an inevitable divorce. I understand why he is cautios but after a certain point he has allowed to be devoured by his grief and his extreme discreetness, to the extent that he alienated his daughter.

I believe that Doran gave Arianne an excellent education, as befit to a dornish princess but beyond that he failed to treat her her not as a heir but as an actual person. I am not implying that he didn't love her, but he neglected her needs.

Compare Tywin Lannister, who he even smiled when he told Cersei that she was to marry Prince Rhaegar.

Doran never had a similar moment with Arianne. even though she was sending signals that she suffocated in the restrictions he imposed to her.

The bolded part is what upsets me in regards to Doran's skills as a ruler and as a father.

He had to take the risk and trust Arianne at some point.

By presenting her men who were not worthy of her, especially men old and unattractive (I think that at some point even Lord Walder was amongst her suitors) he gave her the impression that she was worthless and he was trying to get rid of her.

The fact that Arianne attempted to flee to Highgarden, in order to meet Willas, even though she was well aware of his disability, should have risen an alarm in Doran's mind.

Arianne was not a meek, obedient, submissive princess, who always did what she told, instead she has a mind, a personality and a desire to excel.

I wonder if betraying the father, is some sort of rite of passage, in order for a character to reach maturity.

I don't think that anything good comes when fathers neglect their daughters, or dismiss the fact that they might have their own agenda. If Ned had been more attentive to Sansa's needs, perhaps a tragedy might have been averted.

I don't really know about Oberyn and his similarities with Arianne. I wonder if the incident with Myrcella is similar to Doran marrying Mellario, an act that is bold, brash and a complete failure, with a devastating impact to the Martells.

In regards to Elia, we know a few things, true.

She has been known to be unattractive, especially in comparison to Ashara, Cersei and Lyanna, but she is noted for her wit and sense of humour.

She was also kind and compassionate and likely the only person apart from Jaime, who wasn't disgusted at the sight of baby Tyrion.

Also, I couldn't help but notice a contrast between the Martells and Lannisters.

• In both families, there was a dominant female personality, Joanna Lannister and Princess Martell.

In both families there is a roguish brother, who defies rules and has a bad reputation, Jaime and Oberyn.

In both families there is a disabled brother, who is known for his wisdom, Tyrion and Doran

In both families there is a sister, who is at the center of attention, adored and loved, Cersei and Elia(my interpretation of Tyrion's feelings for Cersei and his underlying lust for her is that he wanted to be like Jaime in every single way, including his incestuous relationship with his sister)

Then there is also the fact that Cersei gradually finds her in a position not unlike Elia's during RR, surrounded by enemies, fearing for the life of her children.

[Julia Martell]

Argh, I found the quote: "My paramour, Ellaria, she would find you very interesting. You should come to the brothel and meet her".

This innocent quote proves that Elaria indeed lives in the Brothel, or works there. Because Varys and Oberyn are both in KL, and hence, he should say something like "you should come to our quarters and meet her". But noooo... he HAS to LEAVE KL in order to meet her. So, either she has moved there or she's found a work there and Varys might visit her during office hours :/

Or maybe Elaria is some kind of bomb that might explode and kill everybody if she doesn't have sex every two hours. Or her heart probably stops if she doesn't orgasm regularly. And as Oberyn is now working as a Master of Whatever, she needs to stay in the brothel. "As a precaution".

No. That's why they already did. See above.

And nope, it's not that they are literally mad, I was kinda joking. But yes, I've read people defending Dorne in S5. I really lost all hopes with Dorne and everything else, to be honest.

But then you have that scene where he talks to Cersei about their daughters where he not only appears to be living in the Red Keep, but he writes poetry and is actually subtle in his "I haven't forgotten that thing where you guys had my sister killed" and it's perfect. And when he tells Tyrion about Cersei trying to pull his little baby dick off when they first meet? Perfect. The whole dual with the Mountain. 95% perfect.

I expect that kind of inconsistent characterization from How I Met Your Mother, but I expected a little more form HBO.

[Chebyshov]

As for Doran, the one time in his life he chose to follow his heart, the result was a devastating marriage, which led to an inevitable divorce. I understand why he is cautios but after a certain point he has allowed to be devoured by his grief and his extreme discreetness, to the extent that he alienated his daughter.

I believe that Doran gave Arianne an excellent education, as befit to a dornish princess but beyond that he failed to treat her her not as a heir but as an actual person. I am not implying that he didn't love her, but he neglected her needs.

Compare Tywin Lannister, who he even smiled when he told Cersei that she was to marry Prince Rhaegar.

Doran never had a similar moment with Arianne. even though she was sending signals that she suffocated in the restrictions he imposed to her.

The bolded part is what upsets me in regards to Doran's skills as a ruler and as a father.

He had to take the risk and trust Arianne at some point.

By presenting her men who were not worthy of her, especially men old and unattractive (I think that at some point even Lord Walder was amongst her suitors) he gave her the impression that she was worthless and he was trying to get rid of her.

The fact that Arianne attempted to flee to Highgarden, in order to meet Willas, even though she was well aware of his disability, should have risen an alarm in Doran's mind.

Arianne was not a meek, obedient, submissive princess, who always did what she told, instead she has a mind, a personality and a desire to excel.

I wonder if betraying the father, is some sort of rite of passage, in order for a character to reach maturity.

I don't think that anything good comes when fathers neglect their daughters, or dismiss the fact that they might have their own agenda. If Ned had been more attentive to Sansa's needs, perhaps a tragedy might have been averted.

Yeah, I agree with all of this. And I mean, waiting until she was 23 to tell her anything (actually, more waiting until she almost started a war...I doubt he would have told her the plan until Quentyn returned otherwise) on the basis that Obara has a drinking problem seems like a kind of crappy excuse. Arianne certainly jumped to the wrong conclusion with the letter, but given his neglect of her, what other conclusion could she have reached?

You're right with the parallel to Ned/Sansa. Had he been a little more forthcoming with information in general, she wouldn't have told Cersei about the plan to ship her back to Winterfell. Laissez faire fathers ruining things all over Westeros :dunno:.

But then you have that scene where he talks to Cersei about their daughters where he not only appears to be living in the Red Keep, but he writes poetry and is actually subtle in his "I haven't forgotten that thing where you guys had my sister killed" and it's perfect. And when he tells Tyrion about Cersei trying to pull his little baby dick off when they first meet? Perfect. The whole dual with the Mountain. 95% perfect.

I expect that kind of inconsistent characterization from How I Met Your Mother, but I expected a little more form HBO.

What's curious is what you call out as perfect is D&D's writing, and the whole "Ellaria is living in a brothel" is Cogman, who usually sticks closer to the books (trial scene, for instance). But D&D stuck Oberyn in the brothel in the first scene, so I guess the inconsistencies aren't neatly divided among the writers.

[Equilibrium]

Cogman, who usually sticks closer to the books (trial scene, for instance

Yeah I liked Oberyn's helmet it really brought Pedro's eyes...

[Julia Martell]

What's curious is what you call out as perfect is D&D's writing, and the whole "Ellaria is living in a brothel" is Cogman, who usually sticks closer to the books (trial scene, for instance). But D&D stuck Oberyn in the brothel in the first scene, so I guess the inconsistencies aren't neatly divided among the writers.

I never really cared enough to keep track of who writes what episode. At this point, the show is just something I bitch about.

It's he's only scene in the episode. Maybe they took it from another one when they realized they didn't have an Oberyn scene? It's like the reverse of GRRM's excuse that they're always putting in scenes into his scripts.

I don;t know who wrote that episode by I remember one scene where I was a little confused. It's the one where Tywin walks in on orgy #2. (The one where Oberyn wears pants) I don't know if it was the acting, the directing, or the writing that was to blame. Tywin is being so condescending that you want to punch him in the face. And Oberyn is acting all tempted by the offer to sit on the small council, like genuinely, but then in the next scene treats the position with contempt and just uses it to make fun of Mace Tyrell.

I was so confused.

[Chebyshov]

I don;t know who wrote that episode by I remember one scene where I was a little confused. It's the one where Tywin walks in on orgy #2. (The one where Oberyn wears pants) I don't know if it was the acting, the directing, or the writing that was to blame. Tywin is being so condescending that you want to punch him in the face. And Oberyn is acting all tempted by the offer to sit on the small council, like genuinely, but then in the next scene treats the position with contempt and just uses it to make fun of Mace Tyrell.

I was so confused.

That scene was really weird! And not just because Oberyn asked Tywin to sit on his sex pillows. I thought maybe Oberyn was looking interested in the dragons, and that'll set up Doran's marriage arrangement with Dany? Which undermines him, of course. Tywin knowing about the dragons was all kinds of problematic anyway.

All in all, Show!Oberyn surpassed my expectations, though I think they went for some cheap character moments and exaggerations of the Dornish stereotype at times. It gives me some hope for Show!Dorne next year, though I could also see us all hopping aboard the sexposition train too.

[Julia Martell]

Seriously @Dany Girl: Find one thing wrong with this scene. I challenge you.

But then you get shit like that conversation with him, Ellaria, Cersei, and Tywin at the Purple Wedding. A fourteen year old girl would call that pathetic exchange of back handed snipes childish.

Ugg! That show just drives me crazy!

[Red Tiger]

Oberyn is such a deep character in the books, he has a very rich history. He was a prince who served as a sellsword in Essos, lost his sister/best friend, raised his daughters to be strong capable women (although he kinda emotionally damaged at least a few of them), he really does encourage them to be exactly who they want to be (Sarella at the Citidale, Lady Lance, ect). He's such a complex, well-rounded character and to reduce him to "orgie guy" was just unacceptable.

I think this is immensely unfair because a lot of what you list here was revealed AFTER he died.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I don;t know who wrote that episode by I remember one scene where I was a little confused. It's the one where Tywin walks in on orgy #2. (The one where Oberyn wears pants) I don't know if it was the acting, the directing, or the writing that was to blame. Tywin is being so condescending that you want to punch him in the face. And Oberyn is acting all tempted by the offer to sit on the small council, like genuinely, but then in the next scene treats the position with contempt and just uses it to make fun of Mace Tyrell.

I was so confused.

I think they were just teasing each other.

Or maybe, Tywin was out of place in that orgy :lol:

But then you get shit like that conversation with him, Ellaria, Cersei, and Tywin at the Purple Wedding. A fourteen year old girl would call that pathetic exchange of back handed snipes childish.

You need the proper translation of that scene:

C: So, your woman is a bastard, isn’t she?

E: In Dorne we like bastards. Like your daughter… probably has seen.

O: People who sire bastard are passionated, aren’t they? Like you… probably know! So, you’re old now. What does it feel not being Queen anymore?

T: I heard your brother is sick. Send him our regards. People love our regards.

O: He’s has a rich man’s disease. Which you don’t have. It’s true you’re poor?

T: I don’t go have time for leisure. I don’t go around fucking woman.

O: I don’t go hating everybody. Nor killing women and children. And I have your grand-daughter, asshole.

[Winter's Knight]

I looked up what Arianne read in Doran's letter. It's really hard to misunderstand guys.

I found a letter lying incomplete beside it, a letter to my brother Quentyn, off at Yronwood. My father told Quentyn that he must do all that his maester and his master-at-arms required of him, because ‘one day you will sit where I sit and rule all Dorne, and a ruler must be strong of mind and body. ’”

[Julia Martell]

You need the proper translation of that scene:

C: So, your woman is a bastard, isn’t she?

E: In Dorne we like bastards. Like your daughter… probably has seen.

O: People who sire bastard are passionated, aren’t they? Like you… probably know! So, you’re old now. What does it feel not being Queen anymore?

T: I heard your brother is sick. Send him our regards. People love our regards.

O: He’s has a rich man’s disease. Which you don’t have. It’s true you’re poor?

T: I don’t go have time for leisure. I don’t go around fucking woman.

O: I don’t go hating everybody. Nor killing women and children. And I have your grand-daughter, asshole.

Aside from the part I bolded, no part of that conversation was the least bit subtle. I'm surprised it didn't end with:

E: You're fat.

C: Well, you're a whore.

E: Takes one to know one!

[Winter's Knight]

You need the proper translation of that scene:

C: So, your woman is a bastard, isn’t she?

E: In Dorne we like bastards. Like your daughter… probably has seen.

O: People who sire bastard are passionated, aren’t they? Like you… probably know! So, you’re old now. What does it feel not being Queen anymore?

T: I heard your brother is sick. Send him our regards. People love our regards.

O: He’s has a rich man’s disease. Which you don’t have. It’s true you’re poor?

T: I don’t go have time for leisure. I don’t go around fucking woman.

O: I don’t go hating everybody. Nor killing women and children. And I have your grand-daughter, asshole.

:lmao:

[Ser RoddyRuinuous]

Food for thought: Varys' confession to Kevan Lannister while he kills him is meant for Doran Martell. After all, somewhere in ADwD, Doran says something along the lines of, "We have many friends at court. Friends who tell us what we are not meant to know." Doran's got mad spies up in KL, and Varys knows it. He wants the Dornish to side with (f)Aegon, and is giving them an offer: Marry Arianne to fAegon, and you have a true king, who will appreciate your support. Otherwise, put your support in Daenrys, who returned your eldest son as a dragon fritter. Which offer appeals to Doran. THEREFORE:

Dorne will be on (f)Aegon's side in DoD 2.0. I think Martell will take the bait.