Bakker XXIX: Erratics and Impossible Erections

[Diziet]

@SBH, solo is a.dunyain/inchie agent. He's ironically implying his.own nonexistance to prove a point, tbough incapable of apprehending paradox. He's a child of the tekne.

But calling a book AE within a series called AE is more like a recursive acronym than a paradox. :dunno:

[Sci-2]

But calling a book AE within a series called AE is more like a recursive acronym than a paradox. :dunno:

But skinspies would still go into infinite loops. Why I hang around Unix admins as much as possible to stay safe...

(sorry, bad joke, couldn't resist)

[Anatúrinbor]

Fall of Fanim = Fall of Communism?

Maybe the Cish had some sort of 'distribution of the Water' arrangement between them. So Meppa - being the last of the Cish - has all the Water now, hence an 'ocean'.

[Sci-2]

Here's an interesting set of lines from Ulrich Morhroff's Spiritual Physics:

To be precise: every conceivable measurement outcome has a probability greater than zero unless it violates a conservation law. Physics therefore never explains how something is possible, let alone “how nature does it.” It only explains — via its conservation laws — why certain things won’t happen. But this is exactly what one would expect if the force at work in the world were an omnipotent force operating under self-imposed constraints. There would then be no reason to be surprised by the apparent impossibility of explaining the quantum-mechanical correlations laws — to account for them in terms of mechanisms or processes — for it would be self-contradictory to explain the working of an omnipotent force. What needs to be explained is why this force works under self-imposed constraints, and why under this particular set of constraints.

As we have seen, the purpose of this particular set of constraints is to allow for the existence of stable objects that “occupy space” even though they are made of finite numbers of objects that do not “occupy space.”

But why are objects that “occupy space” made of finite numbers of objects that do not “occupy space”? One possible answer is, to set the stage for the adventure of evolution. According to Sri Aurobindo, evolution presupposes involution, and the final outcome of the process of involution is the creation of a universe in which objects that “occupy space” are made of a finite number of formless objects and obey the well-established physical laws, at least initially.

I don't pretend to understand all this or refute/claim it has real world veracity, but for our purposes what's interesting is how drilling down to lowest reduction level gets you - in Morhroff's mind, anyway - to the concept of a Mind that creates Everything in order to gain experiences from limited perspectives.

Perhaps Kellhus could use this principle to "redeem" the No-God for his own purposes? Perhaps this understanding of how the nonspatial creates the spatial (see Ontic Structural Realism) is how he pulled Serwe's heart from his chest - because, as he tells Akka, there is only "Here".

And, IMO most importantly, it suggests that drilling down into the firmament via reductionist-based science might expose you to Outside. This would be how the Inchies came to understand damnation well enough to build the IF without understanding sorcery.

[Diziet]

Maybe the Cish had some sort of 'distribution of the Water' arrangement between them. So Meppa - being the last of the Cish - has all the Water now, hence an 'ocean'.

That was a pet theory that I floated a while back. Not one I necessarily subscribe to, but certainly one that I will shamelessly attempt to take credit for in the event that it turns out to be true.

Is that why the remaining Cishaurim were destroying the Scarlet Spires in Shimeh until Kellhus showed up and saved the day? A lot of their number had died that they became much stronger?

[Shryke]

Is that why the remaining Cishaurim were destroying the Scarlet Spires in Shimeh until Kellhus showed up and saved the day? A lot of their number had died that they became much stronger?

In TFT, it's portrayed as the Scarlet Spires underestimating the strength of the Cishaurim. They think they are totally their match, but when they hit Shimeh the Cishaurim finally deploy their senior members and wipe the floor with the SS.

[Anatúrinbor]

That was a pet theory that I floated a while back. Not one I necessarily subscribe to, but certainly one that I will shamelessly attempt to take credit for in the event that it turns out to be true.

I'm sure everything has already been brought up, discussed and discarded. I take credit for nothing - nothing that hasn't been confirmed anyway. :P

Is that why the remaining Cishaurim were destroying the Scarlet Spires in Shimeh until Kellhus showed up and saved the day?

But was Kellhus really that strong that he took on all of the Cish's most powerful and single-handedly overturned the battle? Or did something else happen right before Kellhus teleported into the battlefield that made the Cishaurim's concert fall apart?

[Anatúrinbor]

I'm not sure that the SS were that confident that they could beat the Cishaurim. Eleazaras thinks that he has doomed his school several times during the march and admits that they know nothing of the Cish leadership's true strength,

The Scarlet Spires knew of the Nine Incandati, those Primaries whose backs could bear the most Water, but they had no inkling as to their true strength. Now the greatest of the Psûkari assailed them: Seökti, Inkorot, Hab'hara, Fanfarokar, Sartmandri ... And they could not cope.

[Maithanet]

I'm not sure that the SS were that confident that they could beat the Cishaurim. Eleazaras thinks that he has doomed his school several times during the march and admits that they know nothing of the Cish leadership's true strength,

But usually when he's thinking that, it is in the context of the trials of the long march, not because of the threat of the Cish. And for good reason, the Scarlet Spires could have easily been wiped out for lack of water in the desert, or at at siege of Carathysal (mispelled, I'm sure).

However, Eleazarus consistently dismisses the Cish as a true threat to the combined might of the Scarlet Spires. I don't have the books in front of me, but I think that they at one point describe Cish as being tertiaries (weaker than a second tier sorcerer), secondaries (as strong as a second-rank sorcerer), and primaries (stronger than a second rank sorcerer). Thus, their very terminology dismisses the possibility that a Cish could be as strong as one of the Spires best.

I think that this overconfidence obviously contributed to their failure and destruction, since Eleazarus' tactics are terrible in the Battle of Shimeh and many sorcerers are lost or exhausted before the best of the Cishaurim even take the field. Eleazarus seemed to assume that the only true threat to the Spires was some sort of "defeat in detail", and that so long as his forces were together, they were unstoppable.

[Anatúrinbor]

But usually when he's thinking that, it is in the context of the trials of the long march, not because of the threat of the Cish.

It was in the context of thinking that the Cishaurim were behind the Skin-spies. If anything - in that one matter - the SS actually overestimated the Cishaurim - by quite a lot.

It's true that he thought the Psukhe was generally inferior to the Anagogis (so did many others for I'm not sure what reason). But he understood that the SS are not taking on the Cish in single combat in their own backyard.

Was he so confident that he could get his school through the Holy War into Shimeh and actually destroy the Cishaurim in their stronghold? I don't recall specific quotes, but I think he doubted it quite a lot. But correct if I'm wrong.

Thus, their very terminology dismisses the possibility that a Cish could be as strong as one of the Spires best.

In the quote I mentioned above Eleazaras says that they 'had no inkling' as to the strength of the Incandati, and in the end it was them that destroyed the SS.

[Wise Fool]

It was in the context of thinking that the Cishaurim were behind the Skin-spies. If anything - in that one matter - the SS actually overestimated the Cishaurim - by quite a lot. It's true that he thought the Psukhe was generally inferior to the Anagogis (so did many others for I'm not sure what reason). But he understood that the SS are not taking on the Cish in single combat in their own backyard. Was he so confident that he could get his school through the Holy War into Shimeh and actually destroy the Cishaurim in their stronghold? I don't recall specific quotes, but I think he doubted it quite a lot. But correct if I'm wrong.

Eli didn't doubt the SS's superiority, but he knew that even in winning they'd lose an unacceptable number of sorcerors. The holy war was his meat shield. Little did he know it would be Kellhus's meat shield.

[Callan S.]

That was a pet theory that I floated a while back.

Saw what you did...

Not one I necessarily subscribe to, but certainly one that I will shamelessly attempt to take credit for in the event that it turns out to be true.

I support this opportunism!

Crackpot:

Moe knew that this could happen, and so his ultimately contingency plan was to somehow have a faked death should Kellhus come to him mad and would allow Kellhus to win at Shimeh and wipe out the rest of the Cish, but this would lead to him getting the whole ocean. "Strike me down, and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" but just without the line being said. :)

Frikkin' awesome!

Somewhere in the dark of the nonman mansion, does he teleport back into existance latter, eyes and mouth incandescent, uttering 'No, I am more'?

[Diziet]

The "no inkling" line is with respect to the Incandati who are like the ones who stand out even among the Primaries. I don't think it's entirely clear whether this was from a POV or from an omniscient narrator, and I think it's hard to be certain how to interpret it.

It could maybe be taken that they'd attempted to learn of the Cishaurim hierarchy and didn't learn enough (i.e., they got some fools who are even stronger than Primaries).

Or it could be taken to just reiterate that they kinda thought that they knew the deal on the Cish in their arrogance, we wrong, and the no inkling line was just the narrator's way of saying they were about to get their inkling.

I think whether it was omniscient or PoV it's just saying that they knew about the Incandati (that they existed), but not how powerful they were. Which is understandable because there are only 8-9 of them and chances are they didn't show themselves in battle that often before Shimeh, if at all. And no matter how arrogant the SS are, they could not have thought that the highest rank among the Cishaurim, including the Heresiarch himself, is comparable to a second rank sorcerer.

The narration is a bit strange though in that it looks like it goes from omniscient to Eli PoV within the same section. But I think it was oniscient because at one point it says "the Holy Water of Indara-Kishauri"... I doubt Eleazaras would say that.

[Anatúrinbor]

"the Holy Water of Indara-Kishauri"... I doubt Eleazaras would say that.

Read the section that he dies in, that was clearly his point-of-view and there is "the Holy Water of the Indara-Kishauri, rained across his Wards," It would appear that Eleazaras became a believer towards the end.

.....

Eleazaras = Meppa!

[Diziet]

Read the section that he dies in, that was clearly his point-of-view and there is "the Holy Water of the Indara-Kishauri, rained across his Wards," It would appear that Eleazaras became a believer towards the end.

More proof that Meppa's Sasheoka.

[Shryke]

I think whether it was omniscient or PoV it's just saying that they knew about the Incandati (that they existed), but not how powerful they were. Which is understandable because there are only 8-9 of them and chances are they didn't show themselves in battle that often before Shimeh, if at all. And no matter how arrogant the SS are, they could not have thought that the highest rank among the Cishaurim, including the Heresiarch himself, is comparable to a second rank sorcerer.

The narration is a bit strange though in that it looks like it goes from omniscient to Eli PoV within the same section. But I think it was oniscient because at one point it says "the Holy Water of Indara-Kishauri"... I doubt Eleazaras would say that.

Why?

[Anatúrinbor]

What's a second rank sorcerer anyway? Like the grandmaster is rank one and the second rank is right after him? Or do the higher-ups (Eli/Iyokus) have separate designations and the first rank comes after that?

More proof that Meppa's Sasheoka.

More 'proof'?

Look, Meppa = Wutteät. It is known. How else do you explain that they were both blind at the same time?

[sologdin]

yeah, who is mep's prize, anyway? did he get a major award or something?

[Larry of the Lawn]

Sarl. He is Meppa's proof. His prize.

[sologdin]

sarl. must be italian!