Jump to content

R+L =J v.105


Jon Weirgaryen

Recommended Posts

What do you guys think Jon's reaction will be to finding out that Rhaegar is his father (whether he's legitimate or not)?

1.Denial.Jon-No he is not.

2.He will focuss his anger on something.

3.He will want explanations

4.Confusion.

5.Come to the realisation that Eddard Stark will always be his true father,no matter who sired him although he might want to find out more about his true parents.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What do you guys think Jon's reaction will be to finding out that Rhaegar is his father (whether he's legitimate or not)?

I think Jon might push it to the back of his mind like, "yeah. I'll deal with THAT later. Ice zombies are coming!"

At some point he will have a big "ohmaigah" moment. He'll be angry at Ned for keeping it from him, but later realize that Ned had no choice. He'll be curious to learn about his parents and hopefully that's one way we'll get more information on all our questions. But ultimately I think his reaction will be the same as when the Old Bear gave him Longclaw: Ned's his dad, even if Rhaegar sired him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ice (dragon), ice (dragon) baby?

The original sword. The Starks must have misplaced it somewhere:

Ice had its own beauty. It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers. Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We do know of the marriage alliances planned... Stark to Tully, Stark to Baratheon... (The Tully-Arryn was not necessarily planned) If the arranged marriages that were planned happened.. Three great houses would be united opposed to Aerys with Dorne and the Tyrells. --Lannisters alienated, Ironborn aloof, Arryn questionable or hostile-

I wouldn't be so sure about the loyalties of the Tyrells. Re-read Sansa I in ASOS and pay attention to the conversation with the Queen of Thorns. Lady Olenna mentions having known Rickard Stark, though not well, and knows that Hoster Tully is on his deathbed as well. She then goes on to lament about Mace and his desires to align with the throne, and ends with a comment about how war could be avoided if men would just put down their swords and listen to their mothers.

I have a suspicion that she might have been trying to work into that Southron Alliance, but Mace wasn't listening -- or maybe he did, just a bit late (hence the bloodless surrender at SE). I just find it curious that the first lady of Highgarden would personally know the Lords of Winterfell and Riverrun.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wouldn't be so sure about the loyalties of the Tyrells. Re-read Sansa I in ASOS and pay attention to the conversation with the Queen of Thorns. Lady Olenna mentions having known Rickard Stark, though not well, and knows that Hoster Tully is on his deathbed as well. She then goes on to lament about Mace and his desires to align with the throne, and ends with a comment about how war could be avoided if men would just put down their swords and listen to their mothers.

I have a suspicion that she might have been trying to work into that Southron Alliance, but Mace wasn't listening -- or maybe he did, just a bit late (hence the bloodless surrender at SE). I just find it curious that the first lady of Highgarden would personally know the Lords of Winterfell and Riverrun.

I am pretty sure you are right about the questionable loyalty of the Tyrells... held at bay by a couple of hundred men at Storm's End for over a year...

Lyanna was an excuse for the rebellion... not its cause. By the time Rhaegar acted to break it up by kindapping Lyanna it was too late. But, It almost worked. The Starks moved before the alliance was complete. Aerys did have a chance if he could deal with the great lords one at a time.

I have been wondering why Aerys called for Jon Arryn to send him Robert and Ned's heads. He was smart enough to use hostages to get Lords to comply with his demands... Perhaps he simply overestimated Jon Arryn's attachment to his nephew and heir.. Perhaps he thought word about him killing the sons and fathers of those that rebelled would not get out... OR perhaps Jon Arryn made up a story that would get him what he wanted. Just wondering...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What do you guys think Jon's reaction will be to finding out that Rhaegar is his father (whether he's legitimate or not)?

I think Jon's primary thought will be about his father, Ned and the psychological pain and torture he went through to keep Jon safe from Robert and others who may wanted to harm him. I don't think Jon would really care about Rhaegar (and Targaryeans as well) except for the affair he had with his mother.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Jon's primary thought will be about his father, Ned and the psychological pain and torture he went through to keep Jon safe from Robert and others who may wanted to harm him. I don't think Jon would really care about Rhaegar (and Targaryeans as well) except for the affair he had with his mother.

I think Jon may care about Rhaegar once he figures out the why behind "taking" Lyanna--namely prophecy and trying to save the world. Jon and Rhaegar are quite a bit alike and I think Jon will at least understand his father.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am pretty sure you are right about the questionable loyalty of the Tyrells... held at bay by a couple of hundred men at Storm's End for over a year...

Also, Hoster Tully tried to force the marriage of the Blackfish and Bethany Redwyne, House Redwyne being sworn to Highgarden and Bethany Redwyne probably being either a younger sister or cousin of Olenna Redwyne Tyrell (I can't find the family tree to confirm, but Hoster is about 5 years younger than Olenna, and Brynden is 5 years younger than Hoster, so Bethany is probably somewhat younger than Olenna). Seems odd that a mere refusal of a marriage would lead to total estrangment between Hoster and his only brother.

Just by sake of pre-ToHH intended marriages alone, the Tullys would find themselves with the North (Brandon/Cat), the West (Jaime/Lysa, Edmure/Cersei), and the Reach/Highgarden (Blackfish/Bethany). Throw in Stark/Baratheon to tie up Storm's End, and you have one hell of a power bloc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also, Hoster Tully tried to force the marriage of the Blackfish and Bethany Redwyne, House Redwyne being sworn to Highgarden and Bethany Redwyne probably being either a younger sister or cousin of Olenna Redwyne Tyrell (I can't find the family tree to confirm, but Hoster is about 5 years younger than Olenna, and Brynden is 5 years younger than Hoster, so Bethany is probably somewhat younger than Olenna). Seems odd that a mere refusal of a marriage would lead to total estrangment between Hoster and his only brother.

Just by sake of pre-ToHH intended marriages alone, the Tullys would find themselves with the North (Brandon/Cat), the West (Jaime/Lysa, Edmure/Cersei), and the Reach/Highgarden (Blackfish/Bethany). Throw in Stark/Baratheon to tie up Storm's End, and you have one hell of a power bloc.

Rhaegar's great tournament at Harrenhal succeeded in getting Aerys to leave the Red Keep for the first time since Duskendale. Crowning Lyanna... made him seem more a youth than a replacement king.

Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna allowed the Targaryens to disrupt the alliance without directly involving the crown. Aside from the note to Jon Arryn, Aerys did a good job of dealing with the would be traitors-- Notably the rebels were the only ones to mention the note.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rhaegar's great tournament at Harrenhal succeeded in getting Aerys to leave the Red Keep for the first time since Duskendale. Crowning Lyanna... made him seem more a youth than a replacement king.

Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna allowed the Targaryens to disrupt the alliance without directly involving the crown. Aside from the note to Jon Arryn, Aerys did a good job of dealing with the would be traitors-- Notably the rebels were the only ones to mention the note.

I'd say the crown was heavily involved...

And most logically, Rhaegar hadn't wanted Aerys to leave the Red Keep at all, for the tournament.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd say the crown was heavily involved...

And most logically, Rhaegar hadn't wanted Aerys to leave the Red Keep at all, for the tournament.

Lyanna's kinapping was not a complaint that could be lodged against Aerys... much harder to call one's banners to chastise a prince than to fight a mad king. Had Aerys ordered the abduction or it had been reported as carried out by Aerys's men, nobody would have gone to King's Landing without an army.

Rhaegar was excellent at anything he did... most logically if Aerys was at the tournament, Rhaegar wanted him there. Alternatively, Rhaegar was outwitted by Varys and the mad king.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lyanna's kinapping was not a complaint that could be lodged against Aerys... much harder to call one's banners to chastise a prince than to fight a mad king. Had Aerys ordered the abduction or it had been reported as carried out by Aerys's men, nobody would have gone to King's Landing without an army.

Rhaegar was excellent at anything he did... most logically if Aerys was at the tournament, Rhaegar wanted him there. Alternatively, Rhaegar was outwitted by Varys and the mad king.

Was he? I mean, he only won HH because he was spurned on by respect/love for Lyanna. Before that Selmy notes that Rhaegar rarely took part in the lists or won. He won the best of them all because he wanted it. So while I agree that Rhaegar was very good at somethings, I don't think he was some sort of ubermensch.

And, everyone is out witted by Varys. It is known.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Was he? I mean, he only won HH because he was spurned on by respect/love for Lyanna. Before that Selmy notes that Rhaegar rarely took part in the lists or won. He won the best of them all because he wanted it. So while I agree that Rhaegar was very good at somethings, I don't think he was some sort of ubermensch.

And, everyone is out witted by Varys. It is known.

"Prince Rhaegar's prowess was unquestioned, but he seldom entered the lists, He never loved the song of swords the way that Robert did, or Jamie Lannister. It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him, He did it well, for he did everything well. That was his nature, but he took no joy in it, Men said he loved his harp much better than his lance," SELMY--aSoS BG pages 15-16

If Rhaegar plotted to meet with the great lords at Harrenhal without Aerys present... he did not do it well.

If Rhaegar plotted to get his father out of the Red Keep for all the great lords to see, he did that well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Prince Rhaegar's prowess was unquestioned, but he seldom entered the lists, He never loved the song of swords the way that Robert did, or Jamie Lannister. It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him, He did it well, for he did everything well. That was his nature, but he took no joy in it, Men said he loved his harp much better than his lance," SELMY--aSoS BG pages 15-16

If Rhaegar plotted to meet with the great lords at Harrenhal without Aerys present... he did not do it well.

If Rhaegar plotted to get his father out of the Red Keep for all the great lords to see, he did that well.

You said excellent. There is a difference between doing something well and doing it excellently. Also, I think you need to remember audience here. Selmy (who is really Whitebeard ATM) is telling Dany (who has rather romantic big brother hero worship goggles about Rhaegar) about her brother, whom Dany considered the Last of the Dragons for a long time. She's saddened to learn that Rhaegar didn't really like the lists and was given to doom and gloom.

So yes Rhaegar did things well but that doesn't mean he can't slip up or do something less well

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You said excellent. There is a difference between doing something well and doing it excellently. Also, I think you need to remember audience here. Selmy (who is really Whitebeard ATM) is telling Dany (who has rather romantic big brother hero worship goggles about Rhaegar) about her brother, whom Dany considered the Last of the Dragons for a long time. She's saddened to learn that Rhaegar didn't really like the lists and was given to doom and gloom.

So yes Rhaegar did things well but that doesn't mean he can't slip up or do something less well

well or excellent.. take your pick

Getting caught plotting against his father is neither.

Getting the king to show his face in public for the first time since Duskendale is both,

King Aerys was one such. By the end, even Rhaegar saw that plain enough. Jon Con..aDwD chapter 24

The year of the false spring was far from the end. The passage can be seen as a comment on Rhaegar being late to see his father had been poisoned by mistrust.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Getting the king to show his face in public for the first time since Duskendale is both,

So are you saying that Aerys showing up was--at the least--a hope of Rhaegar's to persuade the lords at HH to agree to his conspiracy? So Varys and Aerys got played? Cause, I actually like that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...