Stannis was right all along

[Marcus Agrippa]

While I agree, and I understand Stannis disappointment at not being named Hand, I can definitely understand Robert's choice as well: he felt surrounded by enemies (which he was), and Ned was the only person in the world he truly trusted. This is where Stannis' personality becomes the greatest handicap, if his and Roberts relationship had been better, things might have gone much differently. But then, it sets the whole story as we know it in motion, so...

It would have been interesting to see margery marry robert, Stannis be hand, and Renly gain more strength. The three Baratheon brothers- the strongest rulers since egg. Stannis and the Tyrells would have to be best friends hahahahhhahahahahhahahahaha

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

That is in part because of Stannis himself not wanting to help Robert if he isn't hand. Which is partly justified by feeling that Robert doesn't trust him.

If I was Robert knowing what he knows I would name Eddard Stark hand (though there would still be the possibility of Stannis Baratheon) but first go to Dragonstone and pick up my warden of the East, Master of ships, Stannis Baratheon and ask him to help me reform the court of corruption, and help uncover Jon Arryn's murderer. Hey with just Renly and Stannis plotting against the Lannisters and myself we could win before even going to Winterfell. Of course this is also achieved perhaps even better by naming Stannis hand.

Robert not even throwing the warden of the east bone to Stannis and instead picking Jaime fucking Lannister is an absolute insanity and him putting his dislike over his brother over both good politics and frankly good relationships with family members over people of his wife's family. Especially at the circumstances of Jon Arryn's murder. They shouldn't necessarily been best buddies but being in better terms wouldn't hurt.

But this is a problem that starts before the beginning of the series, Robert ought to have shown more trust to Stannis. And while I don't think Stannis is always 100% dutiful to a king who doesn't appreciate or trust him, he is someone who usually tries to be dutiful (or thinks himself at such) and would be so if shown some bigger appreciation instead of what he got.

[LordBloodraven]

Stannis might have felt that he should have been named Hand of the King by Robert. To him, it makes sense and perhaps to others. But we can see why Robert looked out for Ned, even if it was to become disastrous in hindsight.

I don't understand why Stannis did not try to collaborate with Robert and Ned, mostly about the paternity of Cersei's children. Surely, he had more chance to succeed and become Robert's heir if he told what he knew to Ned and Robert, and formed an alliance with them against the Lannisters. Going to Dragonstone, buying sellswords and sulking makes no sense to me.

[Maid So Fair]

IIRC Robert specifically wanted Ned because he could rely on him to actually oppose him if necessary and to tell him the truth. He wanted to shake up the existing council, not continue the existing state of affairs. In this regard, Stannis's membership there is as much a point against him as for him: Yes, you can claim that he ran the kingdom while Robert generally aimed for an early grave but at the same time he was there while the kingdom went to the dogs and did nothing. I truly can't see Stannis walking out on him after an argument and denouncing his position the way Ned did when Robert decided to murder Dany for example. Moreover, promoting Stannis would in all probability mean getting an inferior man to become a master of ships. Politically, it is a sound move (not that Robert realised this) because he gets Ned, the Warden of the North, while still keeping Stannis on the council (in theory). In any case, he owes Stannis nothing - there is no such thing as a right to be the Hand.

If Stannis was named Hand there is absolutely nothing stopping the Lannisters from eliminating him, even if he did not manage that himself through his own unpopularity. Imprisoning and killing Ned lead to a civil war because Ned as Lord Paramount and the Warden of the North simply can command that military backup. As subsequent events show very clearly Stannis simply does not have the equivalent level of military support and also no one to command his forces apart from him. Unless the Lannisters were exceedingly clumsy in the execution, Robert wouldn't lift a finger against them if they moved against Stannis. Stannis probably realized this quickly enough to remove himself to Dragonstone.

The only way a war would have been avoided would involve everybody supporting Joffrey and therefore the Lannisters on the Iron Throne. Of course, it is debatable whether Joff would truly be able to keep the peace.

[Marcus Agrippa]

Stannis might have felt that he should have been named Hand of the King by Robert. To him, it makes sense and perhaps to others. But we can see why Robert looked out for Ned, even if it was to become disastrous in hindsight.

I don't understand why Stannis did not try to collaborate with Robert and Ned, mostly about the paternity of Cersei's children. Surely, he had more chance to succeed and become Robert's heir if he told what he knew to Ned and Robert, and formed an alliance with them against the Lannisters. Going to Dragonstone, buying sellswords and sulking makes no sense to me.

It seems stannis pre- ASOS wasn't a very smart man. Looking at his history the characters actions pre got to ACOK makes no sense what so ever. The attack on KL, Stannis abandoning Robert, Stannis not sending a raven, and hell Stannis not talking to Renly either. None of it makes any sense. Martin dropped the ball here. It's almost to much Dues Ex Machina

[James Steller]

Had Robert made Stannis the Hand after Arryn, Stannis would predecease Robert. The Lannisters considered him as the greatest threat.

I don't think Stannis is easy to kill. He was aware of how dangerous the situation was, and unlike Jon Arryn, Stannis' wife wouldn't be persuaded to poison him. One reason why Stannis is so feared by the Lannisters is how practical he is. It's not just his stubbornness, righteousness or even his war prowess. He's also ruthless. He isn't a man who would give Cersei a chance to flee the city before he tells Robert. He's the man who would have arrested Cersei and Jaime the moment he had a chance to persuade Robert of foul play.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

IIRC Robert specifically wanted Ned because he could rely on him to actually oppose him if necessary and to tell him the truth. He wanted to shake up the existing council, not continue the existing state of affairs. In this regard, Stannis's membership there is as much a point against him as for him: Yes, you can claim that he ran the kingdom while Robert generally aimed for an early grave but at the same time he was there while the kingdom went to the dogs and did nothing. I truly can't see Stannis walking out on him after an argument and denouncing his position the way Ned did when Robert decided to murder Dany for example. Moreover, promoting Stannis would in all probability mean getting an inferior man to become a master of ships. Politically, it is a sound move (not that Robert realised this) because he gets Ned, the Warden of the North, while still keeping Stannis on the council (in theory). In any case, he owes Stannis nothing - there is no such thing as a right to be the Hand.

If Stannis was named Hand there is absolutely nothing stopping the Lannisters from eliminating him, even if he did not manage that himself through his own unpopularity. Imprisoning and killing Ned lead to a civil war because Ned as Lord Paramount and the Warden of the North simply can command that military backup. As subsequent events show very clearly Stannis simply does not have the equivalent level of military support and also no one to command his forces apart from him. Unless the Lannisters were exceedingly clumsy in the execution, Robert wouldn't lift a finger against them if they moved against Stannis. Stannis probably realized this quickly enough to remove himself to Dragonstone.

The only way a war would have been avoided would involve everybody supporting Joffrey and therefore the Lannisters on the Iron Throne. Of course, it is debatable whether Joff would truly be able to keep the peace.

An issue here is indeed how much Stannis who was just master of ship was allowed to change.

I mean both Stannis and Jon Arryn tried to get the corrupt Janos Slynt dismissed only for Robert to say No, better someone corrupt we know. This incident also counts as an example of Robert's lack of appreciation and trust of the judgement of the capable people of his council.

Then both investigated the paternity of Robert's children, one of them dying.

Of course after appointing Ned, Robert doesn't consistently back him to do the job he chose him for, either.

Robert majorly fucked up by not backing and trusting the people that actually were working for better Robert regime governance. Which becomes even more disappointing when he chooses them as less corrupt such as with Ned, traveling enormous distance to appoint him.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Had Robert made Stannis the Hand after Arryn, Stannis would predecease Robert. The Lannisters considered him as the greatest threat.

Not at all. Stannis would be prepared for that, and especially as the Hand have the power to protect himself.

If Stannis had been named Hand, he probably would have told Robert about the twincest instead of sulking on Dragonstone waiting for Robert and Ned to die. Stannis strikes me as someone who is never happy and always wants more. Look at everything Jon gives him and he still wants more. Robert gave Stannis Dragonstone, which confirmed Stannis as his heir until Joffrey was born. He also gave him a seat on the council. What did he give Ned? Absolutely nothing. Winterfell was already his. Did Ned ever feel slighted? No. Plus, why should Stannis have been rewarded anyway? He was only doing his duty, what was expected of him..

The problem is Renly getting Storms End. Renly got more for existing than Stannis got for great feats. It's utterly biased and hurtful.

[theriveryeti]

I suspect that if Robert even entertained making Stannis Hand, Cersei & co. would have (might have) shot it down from the outset.

[LordBloodraven]

It seems stannis pre- ASOS wasn't a very smart man. Looking at his history the characters actions pre got to ACOK makes no sense what so ever. The attack on KL, Stannis abandoning Robert, Stannis not sending a raven, and hell Stannis not talking to Renly either. None of it makes any sense. Martin dropped the ball here. It's almost to much Dues Ex Machina

Yes. It seems that with the buying of sellswords, Stannis was waiting for Robert to die and then stake a claim, that would have been better backed if he worked with Robert despite his misgivings.

And Stannis waiting for Robert to die is so un-Stannislike

[Maid So Fair]

An issue here is indeed how much Stannis who was just master of ship was allowed to change.

I mean both Stannis and Jon Arryn tried to get the corrupt Janos Slynt dismissed only for Robert to say No, better someone corrupt we know. This incident also counts as an example of Robert's lack of appreciation and trust of the judgement of the capable people of his council.

Yes, you can argue about how much power he actually had as a master of ships. But the problem is that you don't wait until the universe deigns to ask you to please rule. If you want power, you take it. Stannis had years on the council and in King's Landing to consolidate his power base. Take Petyr Bealish, who managed to make himself indispensable with a mere fraction of the resources Stannis had at his disposal. He may be a special case, but it does not take a political genius to realize that you need your own people in key positions and to establish alliances. Robert was generous to a fault: All Stannis had to do was to get his own brother to like and respect him. Robert does not like Cersei any more than he likes Stannis and yet we find him in AGOT surrounded by Lannisters.

[Mikkel]

I'm not convinced Stannis was just waiting for Robert to die, as such, but when it turned out that way, he acted accordingly.

In a nutshell, Stannis felt - perhaps erroneously, perhaps not - that Robert wouldn't believe his claim about Joffrey et al, and so he removed himself from King's Landing until such a time as he had sufficient proof, or the situation changed somehow - which it did with Ned's arrival and subsequent investigation.

It's just that things came to a head faster than anyone could have predicted, and so the opportune moment came and went while news were still on its way to Dragonstone.

That's my belief, anyhow, but I'll admit I'm giving Stannis the benefit of the doubt on certain points, and his detractors can (and will) read things differently.

[theriveryeti]

Yes, you can argue about how much power he actually had as a master of ships. But the problem is that you don't wait until the universe deigns to ask you to please rule. If you want power, you take it. Stannis had years on the council and in King's Landing to consolidate his power base. Take Petyr Bealish, who managed to make himself indispensable with a mere fraction of the resources Stannis had at his disposal. He may be a special case, but it does not take a political genius to realize that you need your own people in key positions and to establish alliances. Robert was generous to a fault: All Stannis had to do was to get his own brother to like and respect him. Robert does not like Cersei any more than he likes Stannis and yet we find him in AGOT surrounded by Lannisters.

Stannis doesn't have much more of a stomach for the game than Ned did. He barely tolerates his own bannermen.

[Marcus Agrippa]

Yes. It seems that with the buying of sellswords, Stannis was waiting for Robert to die and then stake a claim, that would have been better backed if he worked with Robert despite his misgivings.

And Stannis waiting for Robert to die is so un-Stannislike

I don't if Stannis really planned for robert to die per say. I think the Baratheon brothers suffored from sibiling rivalry in the worst way. They wouldn't talk unless they had too. I also agree. The whole thing was rather dumb. Martin should have made Stannis not known or something else. I almost in this case prefer the TV show over the book. Ironically, it makes Stannis look more compentent. it's irony because stannis in the show comes off as incapable.

I'm not convinced Stannis was just waiting for Robert to die, as such, but when it turned out that way, he acted accordingly.

In a nutshell, Stannis felt - perhaps erroneously, perhaps not - that Robert wouldn't believe his claim about Joffrey et al, and so he removed himself from King's Landing until such a time as he had sufficient proof, or the situation changed somehow - which it did with Ned's arrival and subsequent investigation.

It's just that things came to a head faster than anyone could have predicted, and so the opportune moment came and went while news were still on its way to Dragonstone.

That's my belief, anyhow, but I'll admit I'm giving Stannis the benefit of the doubt on certain points, and his detractors can (and will) read things differently.

Valid argument. My whole problem with this is that Stannis fits the stag symbol so well that this almost doesn't fit. He tends to bum rush things (problems, ideas, ect) Him pulling back like this is so just not Stannis. Hell, even talking to renly would have been preferable.

[James Steller]

I suspect that if Robert even entertained making Stannis Hand, Cersei & co. would have (might have) shot it down from the outset.

Cersei couldn't stop Robert from doing what he wants. If he had genuinely wanted Stannis as the hand, Dragonstone would have been ruled by Davos Seaworth in a fortnight.

[JoeyBanana]

Not at all. Stannis would be prepared for that, and especially as the Hand have the power to protect himself.

The problem is Renly getting Storms End. Renly got more for existing than Stannis got for great feats. It's utterly biased and hurtful.

I don't think anybody is arguing that Stannis was treated fairly in comparison to Renly, but how does that translate to him "deserving" the Handship more than Ned Stark? You know, the guy who lost everything in the war that established Baratheon power and got absolutely nothing other than the magic of friendship out of it. No Dragonstone, no council seat, no claim to the IT. Stannis had it tough but he thinks he's the only one, which is nonsense.

Stannis was being a whiny bitch about the Handship, you people need to realize this. Had Renly gotten the job, i could understand, but complaining about something like this, especially after the guy died for you, is really pathetic. Not to mention what he said to Cat, irrc, wasn't exactly heart-warming either. I like Stan but he's sitting at the pit of a deep ocean when it comes to moral highground in this one.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I don't think anybody is arguing that Stannis was treated fairly in comparison to Renly, but how does that translate to him "deserving" the Handship more than Ned Stark? You know, the guy who lost everything in the war that established Baratheon power and got absolutely nothing other than the magic of friendship out of it. No Dragonstone, no council seat, no claim to the IT. Stannis had it tough but he thinks he's the only one, which is nonsense.

Stannis was being a whiny bitch about the Handship, you people need to realize this. Had Renly gotten the job, i could understand, but complaining about something like this, especially after the guy died for you, is really pathetic. Not to mention what he said to Cat, irrc, wasn't exactly heart-warming either. I like Stan but he's sitting at the pit of a deep ocean when it comes to moral highground in this one.

I'm not referring to Stannis' reaction to Ned being named Hand at all, but more general on his lousy relationship with Robert and clearing up some misunderstandings.

[Talleyrand]

In a nutshell, Stannis felt - perhaps erroneously, perhaps not - that Robert wouldn't believe his claim about Joffrey et al, and so he removed himself from King's Landing until such a time as he had sufficient proof, or the situation changed somehow - which it did with Ned's arrival and subsequent investigation.

But this is a the point that annoys me - he's not got enough proof to go to his own brothers with his suspicious but later on apparently his word is enough that the entire realm should just accept him as their King

[Mikkel]

But this is a the point that annoys me - he's not got enough proof to go to his own brothers with his suspicious but later on apparently his word is enough that the entire realm should just accept him as their King

It's all he's got, and is ever likely to get - he knows full well that the chance for (relatively) peaceful investigation has passed irrevocably. The fact he happens to be right goes a long way for me, even if I do appreciate why it's going to be hard to accept for a lot of people, even those without a personal stake in the succession.

[Sword of the Morgan]

I don't see why Robert would not have trusted Stannis after all he had done for him. Robert did not know how to rule, so of course he wanted his best friend as hand instead of a man more equipped for the job.