Stannis was right all along

[kimim]

I think you overstate Melisandres control over stannis a bit

He allows Mel to assassinate Penrose and Renly. He would allow Mel to burn Edric Storm, He allows the followers of R'hllor to burn the four men accused of cannibalism. Sure he's not fully under her control, but she has a great deal of hold over him.

Would he have Mel if he were Hand?

EDIT: On second thought, I also don't see him sending his men away, the way Ned does. I don't see him trusting LF or anyone, the way Ned does.

hmmm...I could be wrong here.

[Knight Owl]

He allows Mel to assassinate Penrose and Renly. He would allow Mel to burn Edric Storm, He allows the followers of R'hllor to burn the four men accused of cannibalism. Sure he's not fully under her control, but she has a great deal of hold over him.

Would he have Mel if he were Hand?

EDIT: On second thought, I also don't see him sending his men away, the way Ned does. I don't see him trusting LF or anyone, the way Ned does.

hmmm...I could be wrong here.

He is certainly less trusting, and a bit more savvy in guarding against treachery than Ned. I mean, one Jon Arryn bit the dust, he got the heck out of dodge, and fled for the safety of Dragonstone, where he could plot his next move.

[James Steller]

He allows Mel to assassinate Penrose and Renly. He would allow Mel to burn Edric Storm, He allows the followers of R'hllor to burn the four men accused of cannibalism. Sure he's not fully under her control, but she has a great deal of hold over him.

Would he have Mel if he were Hand?

EDIT: On second thought, I also don't see him sending his men away, the way Ned does. I don't see him trusting LF or anyone, the way Ned does.

hmmm...I could be wrong here.

No you're spot on about Littlefinger. Stannis would see right through the lies. That or just not even give him a chance to speak with him.

[Talleyrand]

Stannis struggles with a good bit of the afformentioned. He doesn't really want to burn Edric but recognises the gains of doing so, Renly was just as prepared to kill him, as was Penrose, it was the only method available to him at the time.

Other than accepting the offer of single combat and choosing any one of the dozens of good knights in his army to fight an aging castellan?

[Talleyrand]

Stannis wants to take the castle without bloodshed (on his own side) obviously and doesnt want to waste his strength.

I never said using shadow creatures was a good way to do something, but it did get results.

You did however say it was the only method available, which it wasn't and its not like putting a single knight against Penrose is a huge waste of strength or that great a risk. Hell even if Penrose does win he can just send a shadow after that

[RainGhost]

Stannis is a very capable man in multiple regards, but his greatest hindrance is himself. He has a perpetual chip on his shoulder, and never feels as though he's been give the respect, honors, and rewards he was due. He's always ready to blame others for being jilted, but his own abrasive, cold, and rigid personality is the greatest cause of all these perceived slights.

Him and Robert have never been very close, and based on what i've seen of Stannis, i'm not sure that he's every been truly close to anyone. Robert felt more comfortable choosing Ned as his hand, and I don't blame him. I imagine that Robert had some reservations about how the personality of Stannis might stymie his effectiveness as a hand.

The way you describe him in the first paragraph makes him sound like Walder Frey! Surprising similarities. Except Stannis has a much better sense of justice, duty and honour and is generally not a scumbag.

Robert and Stannis are both to blame for their relationship. Robert could have given Dragonstone to Joffrey when he was born and Storm's End to Tommen but he didn't, he gave them to his brothers. Renly at least stayed with Robert until the end. Stannis should have been made Warden of the East though - he's Robert's brother, trustworthy and anyway a much better battle commander than Jaime Lannister.

The main problem I have with Stannis is how he didn't tell Robert about the twincest because he didn't expect him to believe him but then he expects the entirety of Westeros to magically believe him without any kind of proof and calls everyone who doesn't believe him a traitor. This can be explained by Stannis feeling that he deserved to be Hand over Ned and sulking. Stannis didn't consider that maybe Ned deserved rewards as well. Or else it's just a plot hole.

[kimim]

Ned didn't know LF the way Stannis did. Stannis certainly realises that LF is not best for the realm... But to be fair on Ned, Cat did pursuade him to trust the man, as she couldn't be sure of Petyrs motives either. To anyone reading aGoT for the first time, Baelish is a truly hard character to decipher. He doesn't seem to have any alterior motive, until he makes it known he does...

I can't see him having Mel were he hand. He only 'gave' himself to the red god because he wanted to see the power of her god for himself and that was only because he needed that power, it's in one of aCoK's earlier Davos chapters.

It certainly adds a good bit of perspective, that had Stannis had it in his strength, or had no need of her magics would ever even consider this religion?

Stannis struggles with a good bit of the afformentioned. He doesn't really want to burn Edric but recognises the gains of doing so, Renly was just as prepared to kill him, as was Penrose, it was the only method available to him at the time. As for the cannibalism it was a crime punishable by execution anyway and his men insisted on sacrafices to appease R'hollor. Better a guilty man than an innocent one, though I agree executing starving men is harsh.

She has a great deal of control because he is trusting in her powers, as they have had some (questionable) success, with Renly, Penrose and the leeches (arguable but still, to him it seems a success). In a way he trusts in her for results but he clearly isn't 100% behind her and her religion at all times, quoting again his reluctance involving Edric.

I agree that Ned didn't know LF, but it's also character: Stannis doesn't begin from a position of trust with anyone. That kind of an attitude would have saved Ned's life. Also, Stannis is a good judge of character with Jon and Davos. Mel--not so much.

Re religion, ita that Stannis is forced to turn to it. As Hand, he would fart in its general direction.

[illrede]

Stannis points out in his first appearance that Robert snubbed him by riding all the way north to make Eddard into Kon's replacement even though it had been Stannis who had sat on the council for so long.

If Robert had named Stannis as the new hand of the King, Winterfell would never have been lost, the Starks would have stayed united (unless Eddard came south for Jon's funeral or something), and Stannis would have remained aware of the Lannister offspring and maybe done something about it. Or he'd at least keep the realm going till Robert died and then he would have been regent until he could either have the unsuspecting family revealed as illegitimate or quietly imprisoned. Harsh, maybe, but Stannis on the iron throne beats Good King Joffrey any day of the year.

And yet- Kevan Lannister.

Heck, Tywin Lannister.

The firmly-entrenched realm's Intelligence minister has decided that the realm shall crash and burn, so that an agent he is having groomed can pick up the pieces. The Financial minister is doing the same thing, and running interference for less competent agents of ruin on shear principle, without the intention of even getting all the pieces gathered up afterwards. Unless "have Varys and Littlefinger arrested" is going to be the first thing Stannis does, he does not have a chance.

"Have Varys and Littlefinger arrested" very well may be the first thing Stannis tries to do, and I still don't give him good chances.

[Red Wedding Cake]

Stannis was more pissed about not getting Storm's End, which Robert gave to Renly.

This. Stannis was certainly deserving of Storm's End, and the Hand of the King, and the loyalty of his men (before they became Melisandre fanatics). People just didn't like his crap attitude.

[Knight Owl]

The way you describe him in the first paragraph makes him sound like Walder Frey! Surprising similarities. Except Stannis has a much better sense of justice, duty and honour and is generally not a scumbag.

Robert and Stannis are both to blame for their relationship. Robert could have given Dragonstone to Joffrey when he was born and Storm's End to Tommen but he didn't, he gave them to his brothers. Renly at least stayed with Robert until the end. Stannis should have been made Warden of the East though - he's Robert's brother, trustworthy and anyway a much better battle commander than Jaime Lannister.

The main problem I have with Stannis is how he didn't tell Robert about the twincest because he didn't expect him to believe him but then he expects the entirety of Westeros to magically believe him without any kind of proof and calls everyone who doesn't believe him a traitor. This can be explained by Stannis feeling that he deserved to be Hand over Ned and sulking. Stannis didn't consider that maybe Ned deserved rewards as well. Or else it's just a plot hole.

Very good observation, I hadn't really thought about many of his traits resembling those of Walder Frey. They do both sit around nursing grievances, both real and imagined, although I feel as though most of Walder's are imagined. He's a wretched, treacherous little creature, and that didn't really win him over many fans. While Stannis does share the brooding demeanor and attitude of Frey, I agree that he is much more honorable. The difference is night and day in that regard, say what you will about Stannis, he wouldn't ever lure someone to his stronghold, offer them guest protection, and then brutally slaughter him. Stannis has many character flaws, but he is generally honorable.

The whole Dragonstone slight leaves me unsure sometimes. Dragonstone was historically the Lordship given to the next in line to the throne from what i've read, and in that regard, it makes complete sense for Robert to have named Stannis Lord of Dragonstone. On the other hand, I understand that Lord lacks the resources and power base that one would have as the Lord of Storm's End. It's hard to know if Robert was trying to slight Stannis with that lordship, or if it's just another imagined slight. I know that Cersei claimed it was a slight, but i'm not sure how reliable that POV is in that regard. I can however understand Stannis not being entirely happy about Robert using his wedding bed to bed a Florent on his wedding night. That would leave me pretty upset, and while Robert apologized and said he was too drunk to know which bed he was in, that doesn't erase what happened.

Your point about Stannis just magically expecting the populace of Westeros to believe his claims is spot on. He didn't even think his own brother would believe him, but he just expected everyone else would? It could either be a plot hole or a personality flaw. Once Robert dies and Stannis proclaims himself the rightful king, he starts to often speak of his expectations of others. Unquestioning obedience because he is the rightful king, and he fails to grasp that people still like reassurances, and in this case, proof. Rather than run off to sulk on Dragonstone after Arryn died, I think he should have swallowed his anger, and gone to Ned with his suspicions. I think he's jealousy and anger kept him from doing that however. He was mad that he was denied the Handship, and he seems to have jealousy towards Ned over how much Robert loves Ned.

[Light a wight tonight]

The way you describe him in the first paragraph makes him sound like Walder Frey! Surprising similarities.

Time for a Stannis is a secret Frey topic.

Heh.

[Mikkel]

Time for a Stannis is a secret Frey topic.

Heh.

Burn 'er! She's a witch! (or him, ymmv)

[Salafi Stannis]

Haven't even read the OP, just read the title and I already agree 100%.

[Septa Mordane]

Stannis was afraid of Cersei and the power of the Lannisters. He knew he did not have enough evidence to convict her, either of Jon Arryn's murder or of incest. So he got the HELL out of King's Landing until such a time when he felt it safe again. Cersei would have prevented him from becoming Hand, or killed him.

My point is, he never really wanted to be Hand. It was petty jealousy over Robert choosing Ned over him. Stannis is always whining about petty bullsh*t.

[James Steller]

Stannis isn't liked because he is a cold man with no sense of humour, as well as being bluntly honest and being a terrifyingly just man.

Walder Frey is disliked because he is a treacherous, ugly miser who paradoxically complains about having too many kids while continuing to have more with young wives. And after the red wedding he's loathed as being an oath breaker and murderer.

Yes, they both often voice grievances and they brood but let's not get too carried away.

[Perfidious Algernon]

The title

of this thread

is a truism

[James Arryn]

A Stannis of Ice and Fire.

[Salafi Stannis]

Stannis isn't liked because he is a cold man with no sense of humour, as well as being bluntly honest and being a terrifyingly just man.

Walder Frey is disliked because he is a treacherous, ugly miser who paradoxically complains about having too many kids while continuing to have more with young wives. And after the red wedding he's loathed as being an oath breaker and murderer.

Yes, they both often voice grievances and they brood but let's not get too carried away.

Not to mention hypocritically complains about having an oath that was sworn to him broken, whilst having broken countless oaths to his own liege lord.

[Knight Owl]

Not to mention hypocritically complains about having an oath that was sworn to him broken, whilst having broken countless oaths to his own liege lord.

Good point. While both Stannis and Walder Frey are brooding individuals, Frey is pure garbage. I agree that it's absurd how angry he is at Robb over the broken oath, when he himself is a habitual oath breaker.

[James Arryn]

Good point. While both Stannis and Walder Frey are brooding individuals, Frey is pure garbage. I agree that it's absurd how angry he is at Robb over the broken oath, when he himself is a habitual oath breaker.

What oaths did Walder break that Stannis didn't?