JonCon's Red Beard Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 This has always bothered me. It serves only to further the plot. Why let a 14 year-old decide that he will have blue balls for the rest of his life? It's not that different from making a 18 years old guy to decided what to do with the rest of his life. Just because the law says he's an adult, doesn't mean he can't take a bad decision. Considering a boy is a man at 16 in Westeros, being 14 is like being in your last years of high school, already deciding what you should do to earn a life, and the reason many people often feel so incredibly bored and frustrated about their careers later in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Do you have a link to that ? Sound fun... As for the OP, I can understand the anger towards Ned for letting 14 yo Jon go to rot in the Night's Watch but he never exiled him, nor disowned him. He didn't forced Jon to go, Jon made the decision by himself (not that I think any parent should let a 14 years old take such lifetime decision but well, I guess it is a modern concept. The idea of an institution that you will be stuck for life with or suffer death is quite revolting nowadays). But I agree that Ned should have talked with Jon about his decision and explained to him what's the Night's watch was really like. Sorry, I don't. It was some user's theory, but it wasn't even a thread, it was just a comment in some random thread. I honestly cannot find it right now, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellfoy Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Sorry, I don't. It was some user's theory, but it wasn't even a thread, it was just a comment in some random thread. I honestly cannot find it right now, sorry. Don't worry ! I will get over it ! ...... or not... :frown5: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyBanana Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Jon wanted to join the Night's Watch. It's his fault for being impatient, naive, and uninformed. Like, he could have visited Benjen and talked to Mormont (at the wall) first, you know, to see if it's what he really wants to do for the rest of his life. To blame Catelyn or Ned for Jon's rash decision is silly. Not that he had any real choice either, since it was a plot necessity and all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Don't worry ! I will get over it ! ...... or not... :frown5: Found it: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/116972-common-misconceptions/?p=6228628 :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hear me bore Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 It's not that different from making a 18 years old guy to decided what to do with the rest of his life. Just because the law says he's an adult, doesn't mean he can't take a bad decision. Considering a boy is a man at 16 in Westeros, being 14 is like being in your last years of high school, already deciding what you should do to earn a life, and the reason many people often feel so incredibly bored and frustrated about their careers later in life. It's a big difference. Those four years can lead to a ton of experiences. The point isn't to prevent all bad decisions by taking away freedoms, it's that there have to be cutoffs somewhere. At 14, he was still a kid and should have been prevented from making that decision. Instead, he was basically left with no other choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellfoy Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Found it: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/116972-common-misconceptions/?p=6228628 :cool4: Thank you !! :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddiey Posted September 16, 2014 Author Share Posted September 16, 2014 I'm not a father, but I'm old enough to identify with them. If my kid came to me and said he was going to take an oath of chastity and fight Eskimos in Alaska for the rest of his life I would have to say Hell No. Some people may not want to hear it, but parents really are obligated from keeping their children from doing stupid stuff. Eddard writing off Jon going to the Wall as "his decision" is nonsense. Jon's decision gave Eddard an easy pretext for giving way to his wife's hate. The more disturbing conversation is Tyrion's with Jon. Tyrion correctly analyzes the Wall as a den of rapists, thieves, and murders, but fails to offer the obvious advice. What Jon needed wasn't wry commentary but someone to tell him to GO THE FUCK HOME before he took the Night's Watch's Oath. The book gives no explanation as to why Tyrion, who is so perceptive in his analysis, doesn't tell Jon to go back to Winterfel and face whatever battle has to be fought there. Nothing Catelyn or Eddard could have done to him is comparable to lifelong exile on the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 I'm not a father, but I'm old enough to identify with them. If my kid came to me and said he was going to take an oath of chastity and fight Eskimos in Alaska for the rest of his life I would have to say Hell No. Some people may not want to hear it, but parents really are obligated from keeping their children from doing stupid stuff. Eddard writing off Jon going to the Wall as "his decision" is nonsense. Jon's decision gave Eddard an easy pretext for giving way to his wife's hate. The more disturbing conversation is Tyrion's with Jon. Tyrion correctly analyzes the Wall as a den of rapists, thieves, and murders, but fails to offer the obvious advice. What Jon need wasn't wry commentary but someone to tell him to GO THE FUCK HOME before he took the Night's Watch's Oath. The book gives no explanation as to why Tyrion, who is so perceptive in his analysis, doesn't tell Jon to go back to Winterfel and face whatever battle has to be fought there. Nothing Catelyn or Eddard could have done to him is comparable to lifelong exile on the Wall. This is Middle Ages. If your bastard son who-is-not-your-son-but-someone-who-could-set-the-whole-Kingdom-on-fire asked you to join the Church, you'd allow it. That's what Lords did with their second sons in Middle Ages. Not even bastards. Second fucking sons. Guess you are not European. Put things in context, for fuck's sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In A Coat of Gold Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 He didn't disown him, but that's a horrible fate to give to a 14 year old kid. Of course for the story's purpose, he had to go to the Wall, but he could have done a hundred other things. Send him to a bannerman to be fostered or send him south to squire with some Riverrun lord. Bastard he may be, but he's a highborn bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddiey Posted September 16, 2014 Author Share Posted September 16, 2014 Your really on me Ingelheim. What did I say that set you off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Santa of House Claus Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 I maybe misremembering, but Jon wanted to go to the Wall, it wasn't just after his "drunken proclamation." It has been a while sense I read the books, but I thought it was set up that taking the Black was something Jon had been thinking about for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 I maybe misremembering, but Jon wanted to go to the Wall, it wasn't just after his "drunken proclamation." It has been a while sense I read the books, but I thought it was set up that taking the Black was something Jon had been thinking about for a while. You're correct: He had thought on it long and hard, lying abed at night while his brothers slept around him. Robb would someday inherit Winterfell, would command great armies as the Warden of the North. Bran and Rickon would be Robb’s bannermen and rule holdfasts in his name. His sisters Arya and Sansa would marry the heirs of other great houses and go south as mistress of castles of their own. But what place could a bastard hope to earn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 The Wall is the cesspit of Westeros and the Watch is the collection of its vilest inhabitants. Sending your 14-year old son to spend the rest of his life there is about as vile a thing you can do to him. Especially given that he doesn't know what he is letting himself in for. This notion that it is honorable to go and serve in this stupid, outdated and meaningless Brotherhood is utterly laughable. Put a thousand-strong garrison of trained Northmen on the Wall, drawn from the entire North as part of the fealty owed to the Starks. Rotate them annually with a new group of 1000 men, and they would be ten times as effective as the collection of man-whores, rapists, thieves, beggars and child molestors currently stationed there. And then you would not need them to swear those stupid vows either. 100 men from each of the primary Stark bannermen would already give you around 1500 men for the Wall. And when the Wildlings raise a king once a century, and try and march on the Wall in force, just call the North's banners, and crush them with the 20,000 cream of the North's fighting strength. In fact, Stannis did it with 1500 men. The Starks could do it as easily. So coming back on topic. Having Jon throw his life away rotting away in fellowship with the dregs of the world up on the Wall, is utterly cruel. But of course, it was needed for the story to progress, so therefore people just dismiss the immensity of the event with the wave of a hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Owl Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 He didn't disown him, but that's a horrible fate to give to a 14 year old kid. Of course for the story's purpose, he had to go to the Wall, but he could have done a hundred other things. Send him to a bannerman to be fostered or send him south to squire with some Riverrun lord. Bastard he may be, but he's a highborn bastard. I had the exact same thought. I'm sure plenty of his bannerman would have taken the boy if asked, and that could have provided Jon a path the knighthood if he so chose. White Harbor would have been especially good for that purpose since they have a strong tradition of Knighthood due to their faith in the Seven. Probably not Riverrun due to the Cat connection, but maybe to a River Lord, or even a Southron one. There are examples and references to some bastards accomplishing decent things in the novels, but for the sake of the story, he did need to head to the Wall. As some have mentioned, he was very likely to become an officer of some sort in the Watch due to his Stark heritage, but Jon did one better than that and became LC. Figuring out what to do with a bastard in the societal setting can be difficult, so while I think Ned could have handled it better, he made what he felt was the best decision given the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PirateVergo Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 I agree with the OP.It's disgusting to let a 14 year old boy believe in deluded stories about how the NW is awesome, at least Ned should have warned him about what the NW actually is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klemenko Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Jon's going to the Wall was also to provide Benjen with a substitute of a son of his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Owl Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 I maybe misremembering, but Jon wanted to go to the Wall, it wasn't just after his "drunken proclamation." It has been a while sense I read the books, but I thought it was set up that taking the Black was something Jon had been thinking about for a while. He had indeed thought about it for a while, with him being a bastard, he was trying to figure out how he could find a place of his own. The only issue is that his perception of the Watch was as it was long ago, a brotherhood with honor, not what it had become over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 I had the exact same thought. I'm sure plenty of his bannerman would have taken the boy if asked, and that could have provided Jon a path the knighthood if he so chose. White Harbor would have been especially good for that purpose since they have a strong tradition of Knighthood due to their faith in the Seven. Probably not Riverrun due to the Cat connection, but maybe to a River Lord, or even a Southron one. There are examples and references to some bastards accomplishing decent things in the novels, but for the sake of the story, he did need to head to the Wall. As some have mentioned, he was very likely to become an officer of some sort in the Watch due to his Stark heritage, but Jon did one better than that and became LC. Figuring out what to do with a bastard in the societal setting can be difficult, so while I think Ned could have handled it better, he made what he felt was the best decision given the situation. Brandon Snow was King Torhenn Stark's key advisor. There is no reason why a bastard cannot live a very honorable life if his noble father is willing to give him the opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratbane Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 I agree with the OP. It's disgusting to let a 14 year old boy believe in deluded stories about how the NW is awesome, at least Ned should have warned him about what the NW actually is. And did Ned actually know this? And if it was common knowledge I would think there would be no need to warn Jon about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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