Common misconceptions

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Renly was not a puppet, he was a likely willing participant. I doubt the Tyrells simply went to him to ask him if the King was discontent with his wife because they had a maiden daughter they could spare and he said "Oh, yeah, in fact, he is".

[Minsc]

Renly was not a puppet, he was a likely willing participant. I doubt the Tyrells simply went to him to ask him if the King was discontent with his wife because they had a maiden daughter they could spare and he said "Oh, yeah, in fact, he is".

Quite likely, Renly saw that Cersei was a poisonous influence on Robert (a feat accomplished by not being blind) and he devised the plan to replace Cersei. However, if he was going to plot to remove Tywin's daughter that would require to present an alternative from an equally powerful house that could stand up to the Lannisters. And the Tyrells are the best bet for that, as Ned isn't likely to wed one of his daughters to his friend, the Doran is refusing any sensible option for Arianne because his plot with Viserys, everyone hates the Greyjoys, thus a Tyrell daughter is the best bet. Especially, seeing how Renly has an in with that family though his relationship with Loras.

[Muggle]

luwin was loyal to the starks.

When in actuality he was just pushing the grey sheep agenda

[Ingelheim]

luwin was loyal to the starks.

When in actuality he was just pushing the grey sheep agenda

Which is...?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Which is...?

According to Lady Dustin and Marwyn, they're all up to something.

[Ingelheim]

According to Lady Dustin and Marwyn, they're all up to something.

I know, of course they are up to something...but I don't see how Luwin, the only Maester except Marwyn we've actually seen talking about magic, Children of the Forest, etc, as part of them.

He's likely like Marwyn, although less cocky.

[brakeb4bend]

imo the biggest misconception i see here is that stannis wanted the iron throne.

[Visenya Stark]

The Boltons, Karstarks and Freys all betrayed House Stark, while only Reyne, Tarbeck and Westerling technically betrayed House Lannister. The Farmans only flirted with the idea of disloyalty. And the magnitude of the northern betrayal was much greater than in the West.

Also, the Dustins and Ryswells were of dubious loyalty to the Starks. And if we want to go back in history (since you mentioned Greystarks), then the Skagos houses were disloyal too.

The Freys are a Riverlands house. And we don't know what the Dustins and Ryswells are really planning, especially if you subscribe to the GNC (which I do). [emoji14] Other than that, you're right, especially about the Skagosi. I had forgotten about them.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I know, of course they are up to something...but I don't see how Luwin, the only Maester except Marwyn we've actually seen talking about magic, Children of the Forest, etc, as part of them.

He's likely like Marwyn, although less cocky.

I think that, while there is a conspiracy (or there was at some point, to kill the dragons), not every other Maester is aware. Maybe they are simply told that indeed, there is no magic while the more important members of the order were actually working on keeping it hidden. Hence, Luwin was actually honest about his words to Bran and Rickon.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

There is no evidence that Renly was more loyal to Highgarden then Robert (the individual), hell one of the biggest misconceptions is that Renly was somehow a Tyrell puppet despite there not being any single evidence pointing to that in the books.

I think that is the way they show Renly on the show, Renly was more a Tyrell pupet there than he ever was in the books. In the books, he simply isn't a pupet. In the books, we don't know who came up with the plan, Renly or Loras. All we know is that both men agreed on it, and that Loras is Mace's favorite son, and thus had always been most likely to support the plan.

[Muggle]

Which is...?

To understand what I mean you need to have a better understanding of the maesters. It seems clear there pushing an anti targ / anti magic agenda.

But the general idea is Measters were the ones pulling the strings behind Roberts Rebillion. By manipulating Rodrick, Hoster, Cressen to set up this Super Alliance. I.E Reboert / Ned fostered at the Vale. Jon Brandon marrying into the Tully family. The whole reason is to bait Aerys into being foolish thus igniting a war. To remove Targs from the picture.

Then you get Luwin being extremely shady at Winterfell. Tricking Ned into sending Jon to the wall. When Ben was against the decision. When you actually look at it. Its just false all around.

1. Jon tells Ben he wants to enlist.

2. Ben tells Jon no.

3. Ben tells Luwin about the convo.

4. Luwin spins it in favor of Jon going to the wall to Ned.

You also get Luwin manipulating Ned to go south. Then you get Luwin trying his best to put out Brans magic. Using a variety of means. Like verbal manipulation, Drugs (the potions), Locking up the wolves. etc.. All when evidence points that Luwin is fairly informed about magic and the Children of the Forest.

He put him self into a position to straight up rule Winterfel when Ned leaves. He tries to convince Bran to join the Measters at Old Town. And tried to stop the growth of Brans magic. He sends the last Targ heir in Westeros to the wall.

Not to mention. Measters seem to help start RR but then the Hightowers dont life a single finger in the War. Even tho they supposedly were supporting the Targs. The only evidence we have of Hightowrs in the War is Gerald of the Kings Guard.

Spoiler

We will keep in mind two startling warnings. The first has been delivered to Sam by Marwyn the Mage.

“Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords?” He spat. “The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons. Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to waste his life upon the Wall, when by rights he should have been raised to archmaester. His blood was why. He could not be trusted. No more than I can.”

(Samwell V, AFfC)

And Barbrey Dustin had only poor Theon to vent her resentment.

They heal, yes. I never said they were not subtle. They tend to us when we are sick and injured, or distraught over the illness of a parent or a child. Whenever we are weakest and most vulnerable, there they are. Sometimes they heal us, and we are duly grateful. When they fail, they console us in our grief, and we are grateful for that as well. Out of gratitude we give them a place beneath our roof and make them privy to all our shames and secrets, a part of every council. And before too long, the ruler has become the ruled.

(The Prince of Winterfell, ADwD)

Give this a look tho. This guys does a much better job me.

http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/Ruled.html

[Universal Sword Donor]

To understand what I mean you need to have a better understanding of the maesters. It seems clear there pushing an anti targ / anti magic agenda.

But the general idea is Measters were the ones pulling the strings behind Roberts Rebillion. By manipulating Rodrick, Hoster, Cressen to set up this Super Alliance. I.E Reboert / Ned fostered at the Vale. Jon Brandon marrying into the Tully family. The whole reason is to bait Aerys into being foolish thus igniting a war. To remove Targs from the picture.

Then you get Luwin being extremely shady at Winterfell. Tricking Ned into sending Jon to the wall. When Ben was against the decision. When you actually look at it. Its just false all around.

1. Jon tells Ben he wants to enlist.

2. Ben tells Jon no.

3. Ben tells Luwin about the convo.

4. Luwin spins it in favor of Jon going to the wall to Ned.

You also get Luwin manipulating Ned to go south. Then you get Luwin trying his best to put out Brans magic. Using a variety of means. Like verbal manipulation, Drugs (the potions), Locking up the wolves. etc.. All when evidence points that Luwin is fairly informed about magic and the Children of the Forest.

He put him self into a position to straight up rule Winterfel when Ned leaves. He tries to convince Bran to join the Measters at Old Town. And tried to stop the growth of Brans magic. He sends the last Targ heir in Westeros to the wall.

Not to mention. Measters seem to help start RR but then the Hightowers dont life a single finger in the War. Even tho they supposedly were supporting the Targs. The only evidence we have of Hightowrs in the War is Gerald of the Kings Guard.

Spoiler

We will keep in mind two startling warnings. The first has been delivered to Sam by Marwyn the Mage.

“Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords?” He spat. “The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons. Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to waste his life upon the Wall, when by rights he should have been raised to archmaester. His blood was why. He could not be trusted. No more than I can.”

(Samwell V, AFfC)

And Barbrey Dustin had only poor Theon to vent her resentment.

They heal, yes. I never said they were not subtle. They tend to us when we are sick and injured, or distraught over the illness of a parent or a child. Whenever we are weakest and most vulnerable, there they are. Sometimes they heal us, and we are duly grateful. When they fail, they console us in our grief, and we are grateful for that as well. Out of gratitude we give them a place beneath our roof and make them privy to all our shames and secrets, a part of every council. And before too long, the ruler has become the ruled.

(The Prince of Winterfell, ADwD)

Just one question, how are the maesters supposed to know that Jon is a Targ?

[Muggle]

Just one question, how are the maesters supposed to know that Jon is a Targ?

Thats not the point. But it is odd to see the similarities between Jon and Amon in that aspect.

The point is Luwin several times feigns the idea of free will for the Lord of Winterfel. When he has all ready made a decision. Just as Lady Dustin says.

They heal, yes. I never said they were not subtle. They tend to us when we are sick and injured, or distraught over the illness of a parent or a child. Whenever we are weakest and most vulnerable, there they are. Sometimes they heal us, and we are duly grateful. When they fail, they console us in our grief, and we are grateful for that as well. Out of gratitude we give them a place beneath our roof and make them privy to all our shames and secrets, a part of every council. And before too long, the ruler has become the ruled.

He does this with Ned, Cat, Robb, Brandon, Theon. He even goes so far to tell Theon that he serves the Realm before all else. We see Pycell saying the same thing. Serving the Realm / Greater Good above all else. And we saw how Pycell tricked Aerys into opening the gates.

Luwin is not this lovable second father / grandpa that every sees him as. He is a manipulative man serving the "greater good" the agenda of the Conclave.

Just think about it. What does Varys value most? Information. Secrets. And look at the empire he has built with the agenda of controlling someone by knowing all there secrets.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Thats not the point. But it is odd to see the similarities between Jon and Amon in that aspect.

The point is Luwin several times feigns the idea of free will for the Lord of Winterfel. When he has all ready made a decision. Just as Lady Dustin says.

They heal, yes. I never said they were not subtle. They tend to us when we are sick and injured, or distraught over the illness of a parent or a child. Whenever we are weakest and most vulnerable, there they are. Sometimes they heal us, and we are duly grateful. When they fail, they console us in our grief, and we are grateful for that as well. Out of gratitude we give them a place beneath our roof and make them privy to all our shames and secrets, a part of every council. And before too long, the ruler has become the ruled.

He does this with Ned, Cat, Robb, Brandon, Theon. He even goes so far to tell Theon that he serves the Realm before all else. We see Pycell saying the same thing. Serving the Realm / Greater Good above all else. And we saw how Pycell tricked Aerys into opening the gates.

Luwin is not this lovable second father / grandpa that every sees him as. He is a manipulative man serving the "greater good" the agenda of the Conclave.

Just think about it. What does Varys value most? Information. Secrets. And look at the empire he has built with the agenda of controlling someone by knowing all there secrets.

No that is exactly the point. I'm not saying I don't get your angle, just not seeing how that particular factoid is relevant.

What do the maesters (or Luwin) get out of sending Jon to the wall if they don't know he's a Targaryen?

Drive a wedge between Jon and Ned?

[Ingelheim]

Thats not the point. But it is odd to see the similarities between Jon and Amon in that aspect.

The point is Luwin several times feigns the idea of free will for the Lord of Winterfel. When he has all ready made a decision. Just as Lady Dustin says.

They heal, yes. I never said they were not subtle. They tend to us when we are sick and injured, or distraught over the illness of a parent or a child. Whenever we are weakest and most vulnerable, there they are. Sometimes they heal us, and we are duly grateful. When they fail, they console us in our grief, and we are grateful for that as well. Out of gratitude we give them a place beneath our roof and make them privy to all our shames and secrets, a part of every council. And before too long, the ruler has become the ruled.

He does this with Ned, Cat, Robb, Brandon, Theon. He even goes so far to tell Theon that he serves the Realm before all else. We see Pycell saying the same thing. Serving the Realm / Greater Good above all else. And we saw how Pycell tricked Aerys into opening the gates.

Luwin is not this lovable second father / grandpa that every sees him as. He is a manipulative man serving the "greater good" the agenda of the Conclave.

Just think about it. What does Varys value most? Information. Secrets. And look at the empire he has built with the agenda of controlling someone by knowing all there secrets.

So, at the end...

Which is their agenda? I mean, I agree they are up to something, but, exactly, which is? I don't see how "tricking" Ned to go South, or Jon to go to the Wall when Benjen NEVER says no, help them.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Then you get Luwin being extremely shady at Winterfell. Tricking Ned into sending Jon to the wall. When Ben was against the decision. When you actually look at it. Its just false all around.

1. Jon tells Ben he wants to enlist.

2. Ben tells Jon no.

3. Ben tells Luwin about the convo.

4. Luwin spins it in favor of Jon going to the wall to Ned.

Luwin being shady? Please..

1. Jon tells Benjen he wants to join the NW. Indeed, Jon does this, and indeed...

2. Benjen disagrees, and tell Jon to wait a few years.

Then off page, Benjen and Luwin talk about the situation. Luwin says that

Your brother Benjen came to me about Jon a few days ago. It seems the boy aspires to take the black.

What's shady about this? Jon indeed asked Benjen to join the NW. Luwin is telling the truth here

So instead of Benjen telling Luwin about the conversation (no textual evidence that that is what they discussed), you get

3. Benjen goes to talk to Luwin about Jon, and tells Luwin that Jon has asked to join the Watch.

Have you ever considered that Benjen went to talk to Luwin to see if Jon was indeed ready? To see if him saying "No" was justified or not?

4. Luwin does not spin anything. Jon expressed that he wants to join the Watch. That is exactly what Luwin says. Apparently Benjen spoke to Luwin about the subject, and again, Luwin says exactly that.

That some maesters might have been/be up to something, doesn't mean that all maesters are involved. Those who have studied magic, for example (Luwin, Marwyn) would be least trusted by those archmaesters in charge of any complot (should there be one)

[Muggle]

So, at the end...

Which is their agenda? I mean, I agree they are up to something, but, exactly, which is? I don't see how "tricking" Ned to go South, or Jon to go to the Wall when Benjen NEVER says no, help them.

Cant say for sure what there end game is. But it appears to be pretty close to this

The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons.

Im not going to start fear mongering and claiming they want World Dominaton or anything. But there up to something and its pretty obvious.

Luwin being shady? Please..

snip

I never claimed all the Measters when in the know...

All Im doing is pointing out the truth of Lady Dustins statement. Measters manipulate the Lords to make a decision one way or another. They might tell the truth. But the context and delivery of the truth at certain times in a convo makes all the difference.

Luwins follows this path. I apologize if my view upsets you. Im not calling Luwin the Stranger himself. Im just pointing out. There is a misconception about him. He is not the lovable Grandpa every one sees him as. He is manipulative and serves the greater good. That is the Measters agenda. This takes precedence over his Loyalty to the Starks.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

All Im doing is pointing out the truth of Lady Dustins statement.

Lady Dustin is a bitter woman. That's the only truth we have so far. She doesn't blame Brandon Stark, when the fact is that there is a big chance Brandon never wanted more of her than sex and he lied about not wanting Cat. What was he going to say? "Yes, I love her, but you're hotter?". It was easy to simply say "Well, I'm forced into this because my father wants better alliances, but the truth is that I like you".

[HairGrowsBack]

Okay here we go:

-Tyrion is The good Lannister

-Sansa, Brienne and Jaime are dumb

-Robb was some sort of natural mastermind/ strategy genius

-the Northmen are burly teletubbies

-Robert was a romantic guy

- Dany is selfish

[vox umbrarum]

-Robb was some sort of natural mastermind/ strategy genius

tactical mastermind if anything