Is Roose as smart as we have been lead to believe?

[Chalais]

Roose is just as twisted as Ramsay, he's just much better at managing it. However in Theon's POVS after the RW I got the sense that Roose was very much aware that he and his house were on a precipice, Ramsay had already killed Domeric and would probably kill any kids that Roose had with Fat Walda, and he very much known as an unstable psychopath. I think Roose was resigning himself to the fact that House Bolton effectively didn't have a future after him.

For the Bolton's, Winter Has Come, and Spring is but a dream that they will never achieve.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

But as for killing Robb, I really do think Roose was doing that for his personal satisfaction. Not everything he does has to have a political explanation; even Roose has whims and urges he occasionally indulges. If he didn't, Ramsay wouldn't exist. There was no practical reason for him to give "Jaime's regards" to Robb either, except that it amused him.

Meh. Don't forget that Jaime tried to negotiate Roose into betraying Robb at Harrenhal. Through subtext, since Brienne was there as well. "Give my regards to Robb Stark" can be (mis-)interpreted as subtext for "Kill him" and Jaime has influence in KL.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Meh. Don't forget that Jaime tried to negotiate Roose into betraying Robb at Harrenhal. Through subtext, since Brienne was there as well. "Give my regards to Robb Stark" can be (mis-)interpreted as subtext for "Kill him" and Jaime has influence in KL.

Right, but why actually say that while stabbing Robb? Jaime didn't actually convince Roose to turn cloak, he just confirmed Roose's plan when he agreed to forgive the maiming. Had he not, Roose may have killed him and stuck with Robb.

Saying "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" was just a little joke

[fuem]

Oh I don't deny that it felt real good for him, too. Condemning Ned Stark's son in a manner completely consistent with Ned Stark's philosophy is exactly the sort of thing Roose would find hilarious. Using it as a cloak of Northern-ness to wrap himself in (to legitimize himself in other eyes or even just his own) is just a nice bonus. And yes, I think I mentioned it earlier in the thread but I absolutely agree. Roose has the same impulses as his son, and deep down he's as bad as Ramsay, he's just better at presenting as functional most of the time, and MAYBE the leeching "takes the edge off him" or he believes it does to work as a placebo/power of suggestion thing. But every now and then he cannot help but let his freak flag fly; he just shreds the paper trail afterwards far better than sloppy Ramsay.

"Jaime Lannister sends his regards" also makes sense as an amusing in-joke for Roose since, after all, he's joining Jaime in the Fraternity of Kingslayers. :)

"No tales were told of me. Do you think I would be sitting here if it were otherwise? Your amusements are your own, I will not chide you on that count, but you must be more discreet. A peaceful land, a quiet people. That has always been my rule. Make it yours."

Well isn't that creepy to think about? :)

I saw the movie red dragon to.

[Gregor Clegane's head]

Roose had it pretty well and soild until the Mannis came out of nowhere.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Right, but why actually say that while stabbing Robb? Jaime didn't actually convince Roose to turn cloak, he just confirmed Roose's plan when he agreed to forgive the maiming. Had he not, Roose may have killed him and stuck with Robb.

Saying "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" was just a little joke

That agreement with Tywin actually went down the drains with Jaime's hand. And of course Roose knew that Jaime knew that Roose may have killed him if he didn't agree.

Doing favors for Jaime is just a way to reinforce the notion that the agreement should be kept valid.

[Chaircat Meow]

Assuming we are talking about why kill Robb personally;

How was anyone meant to know Roose killed Robb himself anyway? Only Bolton and Frey men survived the massacre, and they could have told king's landing what they liked after the event. Also, why would anyone care whether Roose did the deed personally? Tywin didn't: said he thought Robb was going to be killed by an arrow.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

A lot of Bolton and Frey men. People talk.

Tywin may not care, but Jaime may, his comment could indicate it. We know better because we were in his head, but Roose wasn't.

[Chaircat Meow]

But why would Jaime care whether Roose did it himself or got one of his men-at-arms or a crossbowman to do it?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Wrong question.

Why would Roose assume Jaime cares? Well, he is the Kingslayer. And he has reasons enough to hate Robb with a passion. He has a habit of petty revenge against Starks pissing him off.

It's not a farfetched assumption for him that this would please Jaime. Especially after giving his regards. In Mafia films and the like, that phrase would fit right beside the head of a family member sent to somebody.

[Ramsay Gimp]

So Roose felt he had to personally slay Robb just to please Jaime? I don't see it.

[Chaircat Meow]

Wrong question.

Why would Roose assume Jaime cares? Well, he is the Kingslayer. And he has reasons enough to hate Robb with a passion. He has a habit of petty revenge against Starks pissing him off.

It's not a farfetched assumption for him that this would please Jaime. Especially after giving his regards. In Mafia films and the like, that phrase would fit right beside the head of a family member sent to somebody.

I get that you could think Jaime wants Robb dead. I don't see why anyone would care Roose did it personally as opposed to getting a goon to do the job, other than Roose Bolton himself.

[James Arryn]

Wrong question.

He has a habit of petty revenge against Starks pissing him off.

Wait, what?

Closest I can think of is Ned, and that was more a fucked up attempt at leverage, no? But I don't think you can have a habit of one, unless you're a nun.

If you're thinking of Bran, that wasn't about being pissed off, wasn't revenge for anything and I'm not even sure Roose could know about it.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I get that you could think Jaime wants Robb dead. I don't see why anyone would care Roose did it personally as opposed to getting a goon to do the job, other than Roose Bolton himself.

Roose may assume that Jaime would and go for the "better safe than sorry" route.

Wait, what?

Closest I can think of is Ned, and that was more a fucked up attempt at leverage, no? But I don't think you can have a habit of one, unless you're a nun.

If you're thinking of Bran, that wasn't about being pissed off, wasn't revenge for anything and I'm not even sure Roose could know about it.

Jory Cassel and the rest of Ned's guards.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Roose may assume that Jaime would and go for the "better safe than sorry" route.

Jory Cassel and the rest of Ned's guards.

I think you're reaching here. If Roose feared any Lannister, it was Tywin. Even with Jaime's maiming it was Tywin's possible retribution that concerned Roose, not Jaime's. And Tywin doesn't give a fuck who personally kills Robb at the Twins, as long as the job gets done.

Roose did it himself because what self-respecting Bolton would allow a random Frey crossbowmen to kill the King in the North?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I think you're reaching here. If Roose feared any Lannister, it was Tywin. Even with Jaime's maiming it was Tywin's possible retribution that concerned Roose, not Jaime's. And Tywin doesn't give a fuck who personally kills Robb at the Twins, as long as the job gets done.

Roose did it himself because what self-respecting Bolton would allow a random Frey crossbowmen to kill the King in the North?

Meh. It is a possible explanation. Jaime had a lot of influence on Tywin, Roose would assume that his opinion counts.

[James Arryn]

Roose may assume that Jaime would and go for the "better safe than sorry" route.

Jory Cassel and the rest of Ned's guards.

Yeah, as I said, even if you count that, it's a habit of one.

[Taenqyrhae]

"Jaime Lannister sends his regards" also makes sense as an amusing in-joke for Roose since, after all, he's joining Jaime in the Fraternity of Kingslayers. :)

I interpreted the "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" as an ironic example of Jaime trying to be decent and it having unintended terrible consequences. The last time Jaime was with Roose, he assumed that Roose was still loyal to Robb, and when Robb comes up in conversation Jaime asks Roose to give him his regards. When Roose does so, perhaps as a joke, perhaps just because he remembered he said he would at the last minute and realized this was his last chance, Catelyn hears this and it just intensifies her hatred for Jaime right before she dies.

This is why I think the show made a big mis-step changing the line to "The Lannisters send their regards". The point of the line, I thought, was that Roose was actually relaying genuinely felt well-wishes from a former enemy right before killing him, not trying to tell Robb that the Lannisters were behind it.

[Tywin Lannister_]

Roose is very smart...

But then again he is immortal.

;)

You talking about the Bolt On theory?

[mb2518]

Roose had the funniest line ASOS: "My lady, has no one told you? Lannisters lie."