Is Roose as smart as we have been lead to believe?

[Frances Bean Corbray]

Is the idea of Roose being some sort of immortal a joke, or a real theory?

The impression I got from the books is that Roose is very smart when it comes to fighting and plotting, but through bad luck and the consequences of his plotting, he's struggling to rule.

Roose is consistently described as looking younger than he should ("despite being well over forty, his face bore no lines of age", etc.)

This is a classic and cliche physical description of characters who turn out to be vampires in vampire tales, a hint that they are immortal and unnatural, more to them than meets the eye, etc.

So that, on top of all the other creepiness with Bolton, easily turns the gears of imagination. "Hey what if he is a vampire, or something like it? Yeah wouldn't that be cool?" As magic "returns" to the world of Westeros, GRRM has introduced his own analogues for many classical monsters: we have zombies, we have aliens [The Others], we have a witch, we have a golem, we even have werewolves of a fashion in the Stark kids. The Vampire-like creature remains conspicuously absent, and Roose is the only real candidate to be that. His fondness for a signature style of grisly medieval torture and the intimidating reputation for bloodlust it gives him echoes real historical figure and Vampire Inspiration in his own right Vlad The Impaler (though of course the particular pet method has been changed). And there's that mysterious book he reads and then destroys at Harrenhal (Harrenhal itself being painted with a broad brush of vampire-associated stuff: big creepy castle, mystical and cursed, former holders include houses with A Bat as a sigil and Mad Lady Lothson who one character (I think Catelyn Stark) remembers as rumored to bathe in the blood of her servants, i.e. the accusation lobbied at another real historical figure who fuels the modern Vampire mythos, Lady Elizabeth Bathory).

GRRM also regularly makes a big fucking deal about Roose's unnatural and unique eye color (well, not totally unique, but the only other bearer is his son, so... :) ) which is another classic way to hint to readers HEY THIS GUY AIN'T QUITE RIGHT PAY ATTENTION THIS WILL COME UP LATER.

Most of Roose=Vampire is "yeah, that would be cool!" rather than anything concrete, but GRRM has done quite a bit to wave this particular red cape when describing Roose.

[BarristonTheBAMF]

At the time he made the decision to go thru with the Red Wedding and go for the Wardenship of the North I actually think it was very sound logic.

The war was lost. Once the Lion and the Rose allied, the Northern cause was lost. Stannis was broken, and Tywin would be able to throw the full force of Lannister and Tyrell at Robb. Plus, Robb was doing everything he possibly could to mess things up for himself as well (marrying Jeyne, beheading Karstark, etc). Roose decided to make the best of a losing situation, and came out quite well.

He had bled off as many of his northern rivals after he decided to turn cloak (Duskendale, how and who he placed in danger when fighting happened, the actual red wedding itself). Besides Manderly, no Northern lords were much of a serious threat. He still had most of his Bolton forces, plus a lot of Freys as well. As stated earlier, if not for the unknown and surprise of Stannis showing up North, he was situated quite well. Even if the North deep down knew his actions in the RW, they would have been hard pressed to do anything.

He of course also won a huge victory for his family as far as the millennia old feud between Stark and Bolton go. He is holding court in Winterfell itself.

As far as Ramsay goes, no idea there. Dunno what he's thinking... letting that psychopath run rampant, and even legitimizing him...

[Bustard]

There's one aspect of Roose's intelligence that makes him so dangerous: emotional intelligence. The man's self-control is uncanny. Every decision he makes is calculated and unemotional.

Ned had his honor, Tywin had his legacy, Oberyn had his vengeance, Cat had her family, and the Young Wolf fell in love. But Roose... Roose only has Roose. How do you kill a dead man?

[Direwolf Blitzer]

There's one aspect of Roose's intelligence that makes him so dangerous: emotional intelligence. The man's self-control is uncanny. Every decision he makes is calculated and unemotional.

Ned had his honor, Tywin had his legacy, Oberyn had his vengeance, Cat had her family, and the Young Wolf fell in love. But Roose... Roose only has Roose. How do you kill a dead man?

Good point. Tywin was an unscupulous fellow, but his family was always his priority. He sought positions for his children and alliances for his house, so he at least played nice with the Tyrells and others. Roose on the other hand is just trying to get everyone to kill each other so there's no one left to contest him.

As for his intelligence, well, sure. He was clever and bold (and dishonorable) enough to get rid of the Starks. He's managed to parlay this into being Warden of the North. He's amassed 2 more castles. All in all it's been a pretty good war for Roose Bolton.

[Thanos Targaryen]

Roose is intelligent but he's still capable of making bad mistakes. Like Littlefinger tends to do (even if he's not as openly contemptuous of others as Baelish usually is) Roose overestimates how stupid/weak/cowardly other people are, such as Wyman Manderly. He's overestimated how useful the universally-reviled Freys are going to be to him, especially when Hosteen is eventually killed and the Frey command in the North falls apart altogether. He's also probably wildly overestimated Ramsey's abilities and is underestimating how much damage Ramsey's insanity is going to cause to House Bolton. He won't be able to control Ramsey much longer, and could possibly even end up being murdered by him sooner rather than later.

[Lord Martin]

Well, I'm sort of the opinion that Roose goes through life looking for opportunities to advance, so part of me thinks that he's been creating openings to crush the Starks from the outset.

But I have to really look at the timeline again to figure out where Rams' movements line up-- we both made timelines of this independently that happened to line up, right? Blackwater and Theon had already happened, then he hunts wolves, then the Freys get news of the betrayal. I forget offhand when Rams' release aligns with this-- is it before the Freys are informed?

The tricky part is everything happens in Arya X and its a giant info dump.

Theon V is when Reek is released, which is right between Catelyn VII (post-battle of fords and post learning about Bran and Rickon) and Sansa's 1st Blackwater chapter.

Then we get Arya X (incidentally probably my favorite chapter in the series). When it starts, Roose has been there for a while. Ramsay was definitely released between Weasel Soup and Arya X. First he learns of the result on the Blackwater and announces he means to hunt wolves.

Then he gets the funny letter from "Walda" which he orders to be burned and that was always suspicious, as was the book burning. Some have suggested a cypher or code was in use here. Then he sends Tallhart and Glover to Duskendale.... and we know from Tyrion 2 or 3 in ASOS that Tywin has advanced knowledge of this move.... so I'm guessing Roose has already turned when the order to take Duskendale is given.

Only then does word of Jeyne W reach Harrenhal.... so I think Blackwater was the deciding factor, but Roose could have condoned the sack of Winterfell first... which would be interesting to be sure, but I don't think we can every really know...

Theon VI, the seige

[SeanF]

If you've ever read Fevre Dream, Roose is Damon Julien, the ancient, subtle, jaded vampire. Everything is now a just a game for him to relieve his boredom.

[Stannatic]

One thing I haven't seen anybody address yet is the fact that Tywin was (perhaps literally) going to leave Roose and his House out in the cold after Tyrion and Sansa's supposed son came of age. Other than declaring him self the new King in the North, what would Roose have done to prevent that?

[Knight Of Winter]

Though I don't doubt Roose is obviously an intelligent and calculating man, I'm at loss thinking about his plans. He deliberately put himself into position where he's surrounded by his enemies and everyone around him has motive to wish him ill. He does indeed play the best with poor hand, but why did he deal himself such a poor hand in the first place?

[DamoDega]

I do indeed think that Roose is highly intelligent, one of the most intelligent individuals in the series. The problem I see here is that you apparently assume his goal is to 'win' the Game. I personally do not think that is the case. Roose is not Tywin, Varys, Olenna or Littlefinger, all of whome play the game to get out on top and satisfy their ambitions. Roose... Roose is a sadist, through and through, and his goals seem more in line with 'staying' in the Game, or 'playing' the Game. A man who want to watch the world burn. Like Gregor or Ramsay or Vargo Hoat he plays with men, only far more subtly.

this

[Tynned Lannistark]

Well he is definitely not stupid. And much smarter than most northern lords seem to be, including the Starks.

However, I always got the feeling from the text he is more of an opportunist than a long term strategic planner or a mega schemer.

There are very few actual players in the game and Roose does not seem to be one of them - Varys, LF, Olenna , Doran - I would not even count Tywin in.

We have not seen him yet making long term , complex plots . Even the RW, which is more of a tactic surprise move, was planned by Tywin, not Roose.

Roose cooperates when he feels serves his interest. He is more of a guy that understands well the situation and makes smart , cold and calculated moves to cope with it best with very little regards to honor, loyalty , morality or any other limiting factor.

I think the reason he is often counted as one of the players in the game, incorrectly IMO, is due to the fact we do not fully understand his end game or motives. However, in the case of Roose, I think this is most likely because we don't get any POV close enough to him to expose his thinking to us. Tywin for example is surrounded by POV characters who knows him very well and can attest to his character and motives - his children, his brother, even his enemies. Roose is not. Theon is far from being close enough to the Boltons to get a good understanding of Roose.

That does not suggest he is not intelligent or cunning. Perhaps it is on the contrary , all the long term plans and moves seem to keep going wrong as circumstances in Westeros keep changing.

So far It has been Roose's adaptive and opportunistic approach that ended with better result.

House Bolton being one of the only ones who is actually in a better shape by the end of ADWD than when they started as opposed to most of the other nobles. The only other ones I can think of are the Tyrell and this seems to be more a matter of luck than good decisions.

So think what you may about his strategic thinking, you've got to respect the for his achievements.

[fuem]

He is one of the better minds around. Though i believe that his cruelty oft times blinds him to see the long term effect a quite land a peaceful people and what is happening now in the books well it isn't looking good for Roose. He has done well in those terms by what he did to the millers brother.
Truly i think there is more cunning to the man then cleverness.

[Amris]

Roose is consistently described as looking younger than he should ("despite being well over forty, his face bore no lines of age", etc.)

This is a classic and cliche physical description of characters who turn out to be vampires in vampire tales, a hint that they are immortal and unnatural, more to them than meets the eye, etc.

So that, on top of all the other creepiness with Bolton, easily turns the gears of imagination. "Hey what if he is a vampire, or something like it? Yeah wouldn't that be cool?" As magic "returns" to the world of Westeros, GRRM has introduced his own analogues for many classical monsters: we have zombies, we have aliens [The Others], we have a witch, we have a golem, we even have werewolves of a fashion in the Stark kids. The Vampire-like creature remains conspicuously absent, and Roose is the only real candidate to be that. His fondness for a signature style of grisly medieval torture and the intimidating reputation for bloodlust it gives him echoes real historical figure and Vampire Inspiration in his own right Vlad The Impaler (though of course the particular pet method has been changed). And there's that mysterious book he reads and then destroys at Harrenhal (Harrenhal itself being painted with a broad brush of vampire-associated stuff: big creepy castle, mystical and cursed, former holders include houses with A Bat as a sigil and Mad Lady Lothson who one character (I think Catelyn Stark) remembers as rumored to bathe in the blood of her servants, i.e. the accusation lobbied at another real historical figure who fuels the modern Vampire mythos, Lady Elizabeth Bathory).

GRRM also regularly makes a big fucking deal about Roose's unnatural and unique eye color (well, not totally unique, but the only other bearer is his son, so... :) ) which is another classic way to hint to readers HEY THIS GUY AIN'T QUITE RIGHT PAY ATTENTION THIS WILL COME UP LATER.

Most of Roose=Vampire is "yeah, that would be cool!" rather than anything concrete, but GRRM has done quite a bit to wave this particular red cape when describing Roose.

I think the ancient Bolton habit of collecting skins should be kept in mind when speculating about what Roose's supernatural abilities could be.

The Bolton's skinning quirk seems to run back forever - very likely as long as the Stark habit of warging direwolves. So what is it the Boltons have been doing with those skins really?

And why did the Boltons collect and keep those skins in a cellar room? Much like the faceless men keeping a cellar full of wearable faces.

Why does GRRM write that the Boltons used to wear the skins of the Starks?

Why does Ramsay have the same hobby that Old Nan ascribes to the Others in Game of Thrones - hunting young girls?

EDIT: And what does Roose do with the blood in those leeches? Is it really true that he needs to leech bad blood - or is that a pretext for leeching blood - which he then uses for some form of blood magic? Something to do with skins maybe?

[Frances Bean Corbray]

Well, the most popular/fun theory 'round here on why the Boltons flay people is that it's rooted in their long history of enmity towards House Stark.

i.e. in older (read more primitive) times, the Stark family's hereditary talent for skinchanging would've been more widely known about (and/or believed in). Who knows, it might even have been their competitive advantage when coming to dominate and rule The North, similar to (though subtler than) Targaryen dragons. Especially in that case but even without that the Boltons would, as the Starks' chief and most recurring rival for northern hegemony, obviously be jealous/fearful of this power and seek to demonstrate some sort of mastery over or immunity to it. Perhaps even co-opt it. Or at the very least they would want to make mocking reference to this Stark trait when gloating in/after a victory over the Starks. Flaying the skins of their enemies and furthermore wearing them as a cloak, then, becomes ritualized through the generations of Boltons. Particularly if, in so doing, they "lucked into" finding a secret discipline of blood magic similar to what we see from the Faceless Men when Arya goes into their archive of faces.

If nothing else the idea of the Bolton flaying tradition beginning as a morbid, on-the-nose pun at the Starks' expense amuses me endlessly. :)

[butterbumps!]

One thing I haven't seen anybody address yet is the fact that Tywin was (perhaps literally) going to leave Roose and his House out in the cold after Tyrion and Sansa's supposed son came of age. Other than declaring him self the new King in the North, what would Roose have done to prevent that?

Well, I kind of think becoming KitN is on his agenda. You know how Roose's MO is to pretty much sit back and let his enemies fight amongst themselves? Going out of his way to be the person that directly killed Robb Stark, KitN, goes against this, right? And from Tywin + Tyrion's conversation, it was planned for Robb to be killed with arrows, not Roose's sword. So Roose really went out of his way to become a kingslayer on this. I think it might be fair to read this as a kind of "the king is dead, long live the king" thing. I think he's trying to claim the dominant position the Starks once had.

[Frances Bean Corbray]

Well, I kind of think becoming KitN is on his agenda. You know how Roose's MO is to pretty much sit back and let his enemies fight amongst themselves? Going out of his way to be the person that directly killed Robb Stark, KitN, goes against this, right? And from Tywin + Tyrion's conversation, it was planned for Robb to be killed with arrows, not Roose's sword. So Roose really went out of his way to become a kingslayer on this. I think it might be fair to read this as a kind of "the king is dead, long live the king" thing. I think he's trying to claim the dominant position the Starks once had.

Roose is also positioning himself as the "the devil you know" type opposition candidate (already somewhat working relative to Ramsay; in ADWD we overhear Northern Lords chattering among themselves about how "well we know Roose, you can negotiate with a guy like that, but Ramsay? WTF?")

Towards that end, in regards to Tywin's long term plan of a Lannistark via Tyrion and Sansa to rule the north through, Roose obviously must paint himself as A True Northerner. Not having Stark blood to base his legitimacy to rule on -- and royal decree naming him "Warden Of The North" now not quite being enough anymore what with Greatjon stoking the fires of proto-Nationalism in the minds of Northern Lords -- Bolton must appeal to that northern cultural/ethnic identity.

Killing Robb personally then becomes -- as I've been fond of saying lately -- a twisted version of "The Man Who Passes The Sentence Must Swing The Sword." That's the North. First Men blood, the old way, DIY, open and manly challenges and displays of power, etc. Meanwhile, he works on producing his own fraudulent Puppet Stark to combat Tywin's future fraudulent Stark, hoping to be entrenched enough to have inertia on his side at least with some lords, when (not if but when, as he admits to Ramsay in ADWD) a real Stark -- and a male one, no less -- shows up as the figurehead of someone's challenge to Bolton rule.

I think Tywin and Roose both knew all along that each one would fuck the other over as soon as it suited them: picture them shaking hands but with their other hand behind their respective backs, fingers crossed. :) Working together in the immediate advances both their interests and also gives each of them the time they need to get ready to move against the other. But now Roose has won that conflict by default since he, as it turns out, more control over his disappointing son than Tywin did over his. :)

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Tactically, Roose has been very smart. He has been very careful to preserve his forces while weakening those of the other northern lords. This actually predates the Duskendale attack. At the Battle of the Green Fork, quite a few northern lords are killed or captured. The Karstark infantry takes it on the chin. Roose keeps his own troops under control, and executes a planned retreat. He has been let down by his allies. Arnolf Karstark let Alys escape, which led to the plan to assassinate Stannis being foiled. Manderly conned Cersei into returning his son, thus regaining his freedom of action.

Concerning Ramsay, Roose is obviously planning on disposing of him as soon as Ramsay and Jeyne produce a son. That kid gets Winterfell, and Roose's children by Walda will not be threatened. The problem is that Ramsay is a liability while he lives, but Roose can't get rid of him just yet. (Has anyone ever given thought to the idea that all those passions that are getting leached out of Roose are transferring themselves to Ramsay? The contrasts between the two are quite bizarre.)

Roose's biggest tactical mistake so far has been failing to eliminate Bran. The true Lord of Winterfell is on the loose. Roose doesn't know where he is, and has no effective plan in place to rectify the problem. He's going to get bitten on the a$$ big time due to this error.

Strategically, I simply can't evaluate Roose because I can't determine his end goal. If he wants to rule the north, participating in the Red Wedding and allying with the Freys is a blunder of the first order. For all I know, Roose might be in league with the Others. A north where everyone has been killed would be a quiet, peaceful land indeed.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I think Roose's motives for personally killing the King in the North are fairly simple

1. It pleased him to do so. Killing the King in the North had to feel good, even for a man with "no feelings."

2. The last Stark should be slain by a Bolton, not some upstart Southron Freys

Well, I kind of think becoming KitN is on his agenda. You know how Roose's MO is to pretty much sit back and let his enemies fight amongst themselves? Going out of his way to be the person that directly killed Robb Stark, KitN, goes against this, right? And from Tywin + Tyrion's conversation, it was planned for Robb to be killed with arrows, not Roose's sword. So Roose really went out of his way to become a kingslayer on this. I think it might be fair to read this as a kind of "the king is dead, long live the king" thing. I think he's trying to claim the dominant position the Starks once had.

I think symbolically, for Roose himself, that's true. But he's not trying to prove anything to the North by killing Robb personally. He denies any involvement in the massacre, so I don't see how stabbing Robb in the chest could have been a calculated PR move

Roose is also positioning himself as the "the devil you know" type opposition candidate (already somewhat working relative to Ramsay; in ADWD we overhear Northern Lords chattering among themselves about how "well we know Roose, you can negotiate with a guy like that, but Ramsay? WTF?")

Towards that end, in regards to Tywin's long term plan of a Lannistark via Tyrion and Sansa to rule the north through, Roose obviously must paint himself as A True Northerner. Not having Stark blood to base his legitimacy to rule on -- and royal decree naming him "Warden Of The North" now not quite being enough anymore what with Greatjon stoking the fires of proto-Nationalism in the minds of Northern Lords -- Bolton must appeal to that northern cultural/ethnic identity.

Killing Robb personally then becomes -- as I've been fond of saying lately -- a twisted version of "The Man Who Passes The Sentence Must Swing The Sword." That's the North. First Men blood, the old way, DIY, open and manly challenges and displays of power, etc. Meanwhile, he works on producing his own fraudulent Puppet Stark to combat Tywin's future fraudulent Stark, hoping to be entrenched enough to have inertia on his side at least with some lords, when (not if but when, as he admits to Ramsay in ADWD) a real Stark -- and a male one, no less -- shows up as the figurehead of someone's challenge to Bolton rule.

"Roose Bolton is cold and cunning, aye, but a man can deal with Roose. We've all known worse."

But as for killing Robb, I really do think Roose was doing that for his personal satisfaction. Not everything he does has to have a political explanation; even Roose has whims and urges he occasionally indulges. If he didn't, Ramsay wouldn't exist. There was no practical reason for him to give "Jaime's regards" to Robb either, except that it amused him.

[The Holy Goat]

But as for killing Robb, I really do think Roose was doing that for his personal satisfaction. Not everything he does has to have a political explanation; even Roose has whims and urges he occasionally indulges. If he didn't, Ramsay wouldn't exist. There was no practical reason for him to give "Jaime's regards" to Robb either, except that it amused him.

Indeed. Roose puts on a mask of sanity, but beneath it he's definitly disturbed.

[Frances Bean Corbray]

But as for killing Robb, I really do think Roose was doing that for his personal satisfaction. Not everything he does has to have a political explanation; even Roose has whims and urges he occasionally indulges. If he didn't, Ramsay wouldn't exist. There was no practical reason for him to give "Jaime's regards" to Robb either, except that it amused him.

Oh I don't deny that it felt real good for him, too. Condemning Ned Stark's son in a manner completely consistent with Ned Stark's philosophy is exactly the sort of thing Roose would find hilarious. Using it as a cloak of Northern-ness to wrap himself in (to legitimize himself in other eyes or even just his own) is just a nice bonus. And yes, I think I mentioned it earlier in the thread but I absolutely agree. Roose has the same impulses as his son, and deep down he's as bad as Ramsay, he's just better at presenting as functional most of the time, and MAYBE the leeching "takes the edge off him" or he believes it does to work as a placebo/power of suggestion thing. But every now and then he cannot help but let his freak flag fly; he just shreds the paper trail afterwards far better than sloppy Ramsay.

"Jaime Lannister sends his regards" also makes sense as an amusing in-joke for Roose since, after all, he's joining Jaime in the Fraternity of Kingslayers. :)

"No tales were told of me. Do you think I would be sitting here if it were otherwise? Your amusements are your own, I will not chide you on that count, but you must be more discreet. A peaceful land, a quiet people. That has always been my rule. Make it yours."

Well isn't that creepy to think about? :)