how can they not do the Manderly sub plot

[Reznak mo Reznak]

This is the most stupid type of comment ever:

WHAT? Do we have to have done something ourselves to have the right to critize? It's not as if he's saying "höhöh they are bunch of ugly pus***s". He's giving serious comments. That's more than what you can say.

Suggesting that he could do better seems more like hubris than serious comments. Unless he is experienced at running TV shows in which case I take it back.

[Ser Meryn Frey]

We really don't have much news about the season 5 Winterfell arc. It is premature to believe that there won't be a northern lord that betrays Bolton because he's angry about the Red Wedding. I really can't imagine that would be cut.

I don't think Winterfell will get a ton of screen time this season. The entire northern story will be a main plot arc, but that story is split into at least three sub arcs (Wall, Winterfell, Stannis, maybe Sam), none of which will rival Kings Landing or Mereen for screen time.

Are you serious?

[The Onion Sleight]

We really don't have much news about the season 5 Winterfell arc. It is premature to believe that there won't be a northern lord that betrays Bolton because he's angry about the Red Wedding. I really can't imagine that would be cut.

I don't think Winterfell will get a ton of screen time this season. The entire northern story will be a main plot arc, but that story is split into at least three sub arcs (Wall, Winterfell, Stannis, maybe Sam), none of which will rival Kings Landing or Mereen for screen time.

Are you serious?

I don't see any evidence for this statement (when it comes to Wall vs. KL / Meereen), except that Daznak's Pit will be the big moment of 5x09 (although there will be also other scenes in the episode as it seems), and get likely there massive screentime.

But

- KL

- The Wall

- Meereen (or wherever Dany was)

were always the three main locations and storylines, plus:

-> Jon has now the most chapters left, even as only one (okay, actually he & Sam) still from ASOS.

-> Many characters left KL or died, there will come new ones (as the HS, aso.) and some will come back (as Olenna, Lancel, LF, aso.), but it's still a changed situation.

-> Meereen currently has not so many big characters, this will change of course when Tyrion&Jorah arrive, but this will happen rather late in the season.

-> The Wall is now a gathering of Jon and his brothers, Stannis and his entourage and Mance and his Wildlings; that are many main and small characters, and this connection of storylines will exist for a while, until Stannis leaves, but still: There are Jon, Sam, Gilly, Aemon, Edd, Thorne, Janos, Olly, Stannis, Davos, Mel, Selyse, Shireen, Mance, Tormund...

->... and a whole bunch of small new ones like Varamyr, Denys Mallister, Bowen Marsh, several different Wildlings, aso., there will clearly be featured more people.

-> Do we know when Stannis and his men leave? Do we know what happens with Davos/Sam/Mance who are currently all there? If we'll get TWOW-spoilers (like e.g. Jon's fate after the stabbing)? Do we forget the fact that Jon's the person with the second most screentime after Tyrion?

To cut a long story short: I don't see why The Wall should get less screentime than Meereen and KL, unless Daznak's Pit and the Walk of Shame take a REALLY long time.

ETA: That ^ being said, it will likely get almost as much as Meereen/KL, but not really less (as I said it will be because of the Pit/Walk), from ep. 1 - ep. 8 I think around the same amount of time.

Talking about 5x01-5x09: We also probably shouldn't underestimate Tyrion's storyline before he collides with Dany's, simply because he always gets the most screentime...

[Janicia]

Dany/Mereen has a lot of material for season 5 - she has serious civil unrest, some kind of resolution to the Yunkai and Astapor problems, the proposal and marriage to Hizdahr, the green grace, probably a plague, and big moment in episode 9 that seems to combine an outpouring of unrest with fighting pits and Drogon's return. And time for Dario, Barristan, Grey Worm, Missandei, Tyrion, and Jorah; some of whom may die this season.

I think the north stories combined will have more screen time than Mereen, but that no one location in the north will get more time than Mereen.

More pertinent to this thread: Winterfell is going to be a secondary, rather than primary, location for season 5. There isn't going to be a lot of time for whatever happens in Winterfell.

[Sword of Mutilation]

If they remove him just for the sake of "trolling book readers" i am gonna get really really pissed ...

I don't care if they kill tyrion jon dany jaime... As long as they keep Manderly i am fine with it

[Konradsmith]

^If he's out (which is looking likely), I assure you, that would not have been their motivation in cutting him. I don't think that has ever been anyone working on an adaptation's motivation. So whether or not it pisses you off, (I assume it will) they're NOT out to get you.

[Sword of Mutilation]

Well if there is another reason or they will replace him with one already in the show then it's ok it's just that his words gave alot of hope

And plus i meant thepissing me off part as joke cause after all i read the books because the show and my brother so they will always have a place in my heart... It's just i have show watcher friends and i really want to talk about certain things that happened in AFFC and ADWD so it would dissapoint me a bit if they weren't there .

[ADanceWithCats]

Consider this: Where would you fit Manderly? And I mean this seriously - where would you fit him, in the season? Roose and Ramsey will be cosy in Winterfell around E2-E3. From that point on, the show will have to focus on Mance's attempt to infiltrate Winterfell and Theon's internal conversion. So, where would you fit Manderly?

[Janicia]

The first Winterfell scene could be Roose and Theon picking out fArya, and then the second scene could be Roose and Ramsay welcoming Manderly and his troops as they arrive at Winterfell.

-Manderly could make a nuisance of himself at Ramsay's wedding and Roose intervenes to calm things down.

-Manderly and Theon could talk, maybe in the crypts, about Starks and fArya's screaming.

-After Myranda or Fat Walda's death, Manderly could laugh at Ramsay, setting Ramsay off and leading to troop clashes.

Or Manderly could be in the Winterfell background for most of the season but engage with some kind of communication with Stannis (maybe Davos visits Winterfell and has a secret meeting with Manderly that borrows from White Harbor), and then Manderly betrays Bolton at the end of the season.

Manderly probably only needs a scene or two of his own; mostly he'd just be a presence in the Bolton scenes. I don't see Frey pies making it in, which is a shame, but the show would kind of have to contort to set up for Frey pies.

[Cas Stark]

Consider this: Where would you fit Manderly? And I mean this seriously - where would you fit him, in the season? Roose and Ramsey will be cosy in Winterfell around E2-E3. From that point on, the show will have to focus on Mance's attempt to infiltrate Winterfell and Theon's internal conversion. So, where would you fit Manderly?

Why can't we have Stannis send Davos to White Harbor to recruit Manderly? We can omit the whole prison/fake execution deal, but have some kind of a shortened version of the scene where he seems to be a Stark enemy.

Next segment....the North Remembers speech.

Then he can show up at Winterfell.

[ADanceWithCats]

Manderly probably only needs a scene or two of his own; mostly he'd just be a presence in the Bolton scenes. I don't see Frey pies making it in, which is a shame, but the show would kind of have to contort to set up for Frey pies.

Exactly. This is pretty realistic, and I expect that if there is a Manderly tertiary character/extra, this is how he would fit in. [With the caveat that Davos can't really visit Winterfell, though, because it's spearwives' role. You can't have two groups of people infiltrating the same place.]

Why can't we have Stannis send Davos to White Harbor to recruit Manderly? We can omit the whole prison/fake execution deal, but have some kind of a shortened version of the scene where he seems to be a Stark enemy.

Once again, consider the logistics.

First, Theon's storyline. The next chapter of Theon's storyline which will be adapted is The Prince of Winterfell, which already features Manderly in Winterfell. This means that if you delay Manderly's entrance by some episodes, he will enter the scene already in the middle of the spearwife infiltration subplot.

Second, Davos' storyline. So, E1, Stannis sends Davos out, let's assume that by E4-E5 Manderly is in Winterfell, so this leaves all of Davos' subplot for episode E2-E3. And then what? Davos sails out and is missing for the majority of the season? The show moves on to the WOW material for him? Plus, a one- or two-episode subplot would frankly remind people of Yara's trip in E4, and for a very good reason. "oh, so he sailed here just to be caught... to be released? and some guy is monologuing?"

Third, for this super-short subplot, you still have to create a distinct court, employ the actors, maybe do some CGI and/or opening. That may not seem worth the cost.

Unless, of course, you have a completely different vision of how the season will be laid out. If so, I'll be happy to hear it. :-)

[Janicia]

With the caveat that Davos can't really visit Winterfell, though, because it's spearwives' role. You can't have two groups of people infiltrating the same place.]

Good point. I guess Davos could sneak in a spearwife, but on what pretext? I agree that there isn't enough time for Stannis and Jon to send separate groups to Winterfell.

But there might not be any infiltrating spearwives. Theon could wait until chaos breaks out in Winterfell and then rescue fArya by himself. In that case, Davos visiting Winterfell might be a possibility.

But they did cast a wildling woman that could be a spearwife, so my current thought is that Davos probably stays with Stannis in season 5 and a spearwife does infiltrate Winterfell.

[Cas Stark]

Exactly. This is pretty realistic, and I expect that if there is a Manderly tertiary character/extra, this is how he would fit in. [With the caveat that Davos can't really visit Winterfell, though, because it's spearwives' role. You can't have two groups of people infiltrating the same place.]

Once again, consider the logistics.

First, Theon's storyline. The next chapter of Theon's storyline which will be adapted is The Prince of Winterfell, which already features Manderly in Winterfell. This means that if you delay Manderly's entrance by some episodes, he will enter the scene already in the middle of the spearwife infiltration subplot.

Second, Davos' storyline. So, E1, Stannis sends Davos out, let's assume that by E4-E5 Manderly is in Winterfell, so this leaves all of Davos' subplot for episode E2-E3. And then what? Davos sails out and is missing for the majority of the season? The show moves on to the WOW material for him? Plus, a one- or two-episode subplot would frankly remind people of Yara's trip in E4, and for a very good reason. "oh, so he sailed here just to be caught... to be released? and some guy is monologuing?"

Third, for this super-short subplot, you still have to create a distinct court, employ the actors, maybe do some CGI and/or opening. That may not seem worth the cost.

Unless, of course, you have a completely different vision of how the season will be laid out. If so, I'll be happy to hear it. :-)

I don't know that it makes a difference if Manderly comes to Winterfell late, after a few Theon/Bolton scenes there, they could create a scene around his entrance.

They could have Davos go back to the wall, and not leave straight away, since presumably now that so many more people, including Jon know his brothers are alive, it wouldn't make a difference for Stannis to know also.

[ADanceWithCats]

Good point. I guess Davos could sneak in a spearwife, but on what pretext? I agree that there isn't enough time for Stannis and Jon to send separate groups to Winterfell.

But there might not be any infiltrating spearwives. Theon could wait until chaos breaks out in Winterfell and then rescue fArya by himself. In that case, Davos visiting Winterfell might be a possibility.

I feel like this is several standard deviations away from the most probable plot at this point. You'd require Davos to sneak in and out of Winterfell, unnoticed, just so he can have a chat with Wyman Manderly, about whom Davos and Stannis at this point don't know if he's a traitor, doing so which would require excising an actual plot from the books about another group infiltrating Winterfell for a somewhat good reason. Yes, theoretically possible, but... unlikely, wouldn't you agree?

I don't know that it makes a difference if Manderly comes to Winterfell late, after a few Theon/Bolton scenes there, they could create a scene around his entrance.

They could have Davos go back to the wall, and not leave straight away, since presumably now that so many more people, including Jon know his brothers are alive, it wouldn't make a difference for Stannis to know also.

Well, it would break the pace of Theon's plot, for one thing. You also didn't comment on the ridiculousness of Davos making a short trip once in a season just to be caught and released in one episode or so.

I really feel like the Occam's razor solution would be for Manderly to tell the NR speech to Theon, or maybe as a monologue in the crypts. But I think that the answer to how the show can not do the subplot is fairly easy. Manderly in the books serves mainly as a plot device to point Davos to Rickon. Davos on the show can be pointed to Rickon in a more time- and resource-efficient way. Hence no Manderly.

[Cas Stark]

Well, it would break the pace of Theon's plot, for one thing. You also didn't comment on the ridiculousness of Davos making a short trip once in a season just to be caught and released in one episode or so.

I really feel like the Occam's razor solution would be for Manderly to tell the NR speech to Theon, or maybe as a monologue in the crypts. But I think that the answer to how the show can not do the subplot is fairly easy. Manderly in the books serves mainly as a plot device to point Davos to Rickon. Davos on the show can be pointed to Rickon in a more time- and resource-efficient way. Hence no Manderly.

It's not like the show hasn't done some ridiculous one off segments that led nowhere already, LOL.

I'm not sure why it would break the pace of Theon's plot....Manderly could be one more Lord showing up at WF, with the Bolton's commenting on their situation, etc. etc. Manderly could also give the NR speech to Theon directly, but it loses a lot of it's punch without the reversal effect where you thought he was a Stark traitor but he's not.

No Manderly though means he plays no role going forward, that he can so easily be cut.

[Janicia]

I feel like this is several standard deviations away from the most probable plot at this point. You'd require Davos to sneak in and out of Winterfell, unnoticed, just so he can have a chat with Wyman Manderly, about whom Davos and Stannis at this point don't know if he's a traitor, doing so which would require excising an actual plot from the books about another group infiltrating Winterfell for a somewhat good reason. Yes, theoretically possible, but... unlikely, wouldn't you agree?

Sorry, I wasn't clear. Stannis could reasonably send Davos as an envoy to the Boltons/Winterfell in early season 5. In the books, Stannis' initial overture was by mail but why not send somebody for TV. While in Winterfell, Manderly meets secretly with Davos. Davos then returns to Stannis with the information that Manderly wants to betray Bolton (maybe with a Rickon condition that comes into play in season 6). Later, Manderly has Myranda killed, the ensuing chaos gives Stannis a leg-up in his attack, and Theon gets a chance to rescue fArya.

I totally agree that Davos wouldn't sneak into Winterfell. By "sneak in a spearwife" I meant that during his official visit, Davos could help a spearwife gain access to Winterfell, but I didn't think that was likely.

[Janicia]

Manderly in the books serves mainly as a plot device to point Davos to Rickon. Davos on the show can be pointed to Rickon in a more time- and resource-efficient way. Hence no Manderly.

I disagree. Manderly is the architect of northern vengeance coming after the Freys and Boltons. I don't have a ready argument for whether he is a well developed character, but his parts of ADWD were among my favorites. The North Remembers speech felt good, the vision of him serving Frey pie at the wedding while Mance played songs about the Rat King is burned into my head, and his suicidal line about "if he'd grown up he would have been a Frey" was so very ballsy. To me, Manderly is much more about the heart of the north than about plot.

As far as plot goes, bolstering Stannis' forces probably makes Manderly skippable; Rickon could resurface in a dozen different ways.

A big problem is that Manderly and Doran are very similar. Both are disabled, underestimated, and patient, both are driven by the contrasting goals of keeping their kids alive and wanting vengeance. I care more about Manderly than Doran, but oh well. I will probably care more about showDoran than I did about bookDoran.

I tentatively accept replacing Manderly with an Umber - somebody more obviously rough around the edges, less patient, and more direct. Most of the loops in the northern plot will be streamlined away anyhow. But I will be disappointed if there isn't any face/heart of northern resistance to Bolton rule.

[JonBranRickon]

Someone should look and see if the actor that played the Greatjon Umber has been recast - he could fill the role in Winterfel but not the Davos intersection.

[ADanceWithCats]

I'm not sure why it would break the pace of Theon's plot....Manderly could be one more Lord showing up at WF, with the Bolton's commenting on their situation, etc. etc. Manderly could also give the NR speech to Theon directly, but it loses a lot of it's punch without the reversal effect where you thought he was a Stark traitor but he's not.

Eh. Criticism is easy.

Do a thought experiment of an adaptation. Really, do it. Janicia has already started, but do it. Start from Theon's plot, which is at the core of Winterfell. Which scenes are necessary? How would you spread them across the season to have a balanced plot? In how many episodes would you put them?

Do it while remembering that there are at least three, and possibly up to six, at least partly mutually interdependent plots in the North that have to be spread over episodes (Jon, Stannis, Winterfell; Sam, Davos, Yara). Theon's plot will depend in part at least on Jon's.

Do it while remembering that there is about a million of other subplots clamouring for showtime. Time's not an unlimited resource.

Also, there is a huge difference between the show and the books in that in the books, Stannis leaves the Wall and Jon sends out Mance before the Boltons get to Winterfell. In the show, the Boltons are already almost at Winterfell, but Jon hasn't even taken charge of the Wall yet.

Try to do it. I think if you put yourself in the showrunners' shoes, it will become pretty obvious why they should strive for simplicity. You shouldn't really start from a maximising position, but a minimising one - which scenes are really necessary? Not cool; necessary?

[Sword of Mutilation]

Someone should look and see if the actor that played the Greatjon Umber has been recast - he could fill the role in Winterfel but not the Davos intersection.

That would be great cause the red wedding was much much much more depressing in the show. I hope they give some hope to show fans.