So how many people think Dany is the younger more beautiful queen?

[the trees have eyes]

That's true enough, she does not say "a queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful queen". Just like, when asked "Will the king and I have children?", she will say "Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you". Not, mind you, "Six-and-ten children for him, and three children for you." She doesn't repeat the same noun over and over again, so it doesn't necessarily have to be about kids, does it? I'm no less curious about the fans' theories about those sixteen and three somethings and what they might be, than about the another-younger-and-more-beautiful-no-fucking-idea-what.

LOL, yes, but don't be too snarky :) People quite often discount the most obvious or most plausible here.

The most obvious meaning is the rival who will over throw her - it certainly got Cersei hell-bent on taking Margaery down but it seems she understands the threat but has misidentified the source (perhaps as with the valonqar).

The threat that you don't see coming is more dangerous than the one right in front of you so after Margaery occupies Cersei's attention for a bit longer the real threat will arrive.

Sansa seems to be a favourite because people want to see some Stark vengeance and it would be satisfying if she were the one to supplant Cersei. But poor Sansa is getting a lot of expectations heaped on her as well - Littlefinger and Cersei are on her to do list.

Dany, long expected to arrive in Westeros to make her claim, seems more likely. A lot of the rejection of this idea seems to spring from a dislike of the character rather than whether it fits.

[larastone]

LOL, yes, but don't be too snarky :) People quite often discount the most obvious or most plausible here.

The most obvious meaning is the rival who will over throw her - it certainly got Cersei hell-bent on taking Margaery down but it seems she understands the threat but has misidentified the source (perhaps as with the valonqar).

The threat that you don't see coming is more dangerous than the one right in front of you so after Margaery occupies Cersei's attention for a bit longer the real threat will arrive.

Sansa seems to be a favourite because people want to see some Stark vengeance and it would be satisfying if she were the one to supplant Cersei. But poor Sansa is getting a lot of expectations heaped on her as well - Littlefinger and Cersei are on her to do list.

Dany, long expected to arrive in Westeros to make her claim, seems more likely. A lot of the rejection of this idea seems to spring from a dislike of the character rather than whether it fits.

EXACTLY, this is one of the main reasons i'm not a huge fan of this prophecy, because people tend to forget that the prophecy is all about Cersei and no one else. It's not about who wants to take Cersei down, its about Cersei being her own worst enemy and letting the prophecy and paranoia consume her and the fact that Cersei is bringing her own demise by attempting to stop it.

If Cersei had just let the pieces fall, and not actively tried to stop the prophecy from happening. Then for example, she could have had help from others (such as the Tyrells and the Starks!) to protect herself from Dany and she might not have lost all that she held dear till she became very old, she may have ended up dying with Jaime in a romantic way like she wanted. But Cersei trying to stop the prophecy is only going to make things infinitely more painful and difficult for her which has already been happening....

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

My main objection to Dany being the young more beautiful other (I'm not going to say "queen" because the prophecy itself never says that) is that there's absolutely nothing "personal" between Dany and Cersei. They've never even met each other, and Cersei has already lost quite a bit that Dany had absolutely nothing to do with. The things that Cersei actually loves and holds dear — Jaime, Tommen, Myrcella, even the power of the crown — are all directly threatened now without Dany being in the picture. She seems poised to continue to lose more, all without Dany being there. So I guess it's not clear to me how Dany can be this younger, more beautiful "other" when it seems likely that Cersei will have already lost most if not all of what she holds dear before Dany even arrives.

I've never thought it was Margaery, because Cersei herself thinks it's Margaery. For that same reason, Tyrion isn't the valonqar. But for the reason I gave above, nor have I ever been convinced that it's Dany.

I think we're looking for someone with actual bad blood with Cersei, someone like Sansa or even Brienne ("Brienne the Beauty").

[Ser Pounce FTW]

It's definitely Dany. Not everything is complicated...

Very little in this series has not been complicated.

[Sword of the Morgan]

I don't think it's Margery, only because Cersei thinks it is and she has essentially been wrong about everything for her entire life. I think Dany is the best bet, though I do think that Sansa could be in consideration as well, and perhaps Arianne, though I doubt it for the latter. As far as the younger queen being more beautiful, that seems to strongly lean toward Dany, but I do agree with some other posters about the timeline issue.

[larastone]

My main objection to Dany being the young more beautiful other (I'm not going to say "queen" because the prophecy itself never says that) is that there's absolutely nothing "personal" between Dany and Cersei. They've never even met each other, and Cersei has already lost quite a bit that Dany had absolutely nothing to do with. The things that Cersei actually loves and holds dear — Jaime, Tommen, Myrcella, even the power of the crown — are all directly threatened now without Dany being in the picture. She seems poised to continue to lose more, all without Dany being there. So I guess it's not clear to me how Dany can be this younger, more beautiful "other" when it seems likely that Cersei will have already lost most if not all of what she holds dear before Dany even arrives.

I've never thought it was Margaery, because Cersei herself thinks it's Margaery. For that same reason, Tyrion isn't the valonqar. But for the reason I gave above, nor have I ever been convinced that it's Dany.

I think we're looking for someone with actual bad blood with Cersei, someone like Sansa or even Brienne ("Brienne the Beauty").

BUT that's exactly why it makes perfect sense, the prophecy is more Greek Tragedy than Snow White. GRRM may have been inspired by Snow White while writing the prophecy but it's clear that he's focusing more on "the human heart in conflict" as he often says, and that's MORE about how Cersei's own paranoia and emotions are going to lead to her downfall, rather than some trite Snow White 2.0 story. That's also why none of these "inner beauty" theories make any sense either.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

BUT that's exactly why it makes perfect sense, the prophecy is more Greek Tragedy than Snow White. GRRM may have been inspired by Snow White while writing the prophecy but it's clear that he's focusing more on "the human heart in conflict" as he often says, and that's MORE about how Cersei's own paranoia and emotions are going to lead to her downfall, rather than some trite Snow White 2.0 story. That's also why none of these "inner beauty" theories make any sense either.

I'm not sure what it is you're getting at here, sorry. If you're arguing that Cersei herself is responsible for her own downfall (and I actually agree with you), then the idea that the "younger, more beautiful" is really the younger Cersei causing problems for the older Cersei through her choices is the better theory (a theory that I've actually seen and that makes sense to me). You still haven't shown why that means it's Dany, specifically.

I don't see how, say, Brienne's inner beauty is any more trite than Dany's outer beauty. I actually think it'd be fitting and hilarious for Cersei to be focused on outer looks only to be trumped by someone with more inner worth; I think that's a very GRRM thing to do. Most people see "Dany being pretty and wanting to stake a claim" as being sufficient to make her the candidate, when in actuality I think there's more to it than that and I think it has a more personal angle than Dany can provide. Which was the point of my first post: Dany can't take what Cersei holds dear if Cersei will have already lost it all, or most of it, by the time Dany even arrives.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

there's absolutely nothing "personal" between Dany and Cersei.

Why does the younger more beautiful one have to have something personal with Cersei? That's the least important reason especially since Martin is notorious for having revenge come from an unlikely person than the character would expect.

I don't see how, say, Brienne's inner beauty is any more trite than Dany's outer beauty. I actually think it'd be fitting and hilarious for Cersei to be focused on outer looks only to be trumped by someone with more inner worth; I think that's a very GRRM thing to do.

I agree with this and Brienne is my other candidate. At this point, I think losing Jaime to Brienne would push Cersei over the edge. And yes, it's very Martinesque.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Why does the younger more beautiful one have to have something personal with Cersei? That's the least important reason especially since Martin is notorious for having revenge come from an unlikely person than the character would expect.

The "all that you hold dear" line implies something personal to me. You may disagree. And the younger person being anyone other than Margaery would satisfy the "unlikely person" angle, since Margaery is the one Cersei expects it to be.

ETA: Even if you don't think there's a personal angle to it, that doesn't explain how Dany can take all that she holds dear when Cersei seems very likely to have already lost it all by the time Dany arrives, let alone by the time Dany arrives and is in a position to punish Cersei.

[Mithras]

The "all that you hold dear" line implies something personal to me. You may disagree. And the younger person being anyone other than Margaery would satisfy the "unlikely person" angle, since Margaery is the one Cersei expects it to be.

Agreed. "all you hold dear" is extremely personal and sounds vindictive.

I have worked at the downfall of Tywin Lannister since the day they told me of Elia and her children. It was my hope to strip him of all that he held most dear before I killed him, but it would seem his dwarf son has robbed me of that pleasure.

[larastone]

I'm not sure what it is you're getting at here, sorry. If you're arguing that Cersei herself is responsible for her own downfall (and I actually agree with you), then the idea that the "younger, more beautiful" is really the younger Cersei causing problems for the older Cersei through her choices is the better theory (a theory that I've actually seen and that makes sense to me). You still haven't shown why that means it's Dany, specifically.

I don't see how, say, Brienne's inner beauty is any more trite than Dany's outer beauty. I actually think it'd be fitting and hilarious for Cersei to be focused on outer looks only to be trumped by someone with more inner worth; I think that's a very GRRM thing to do. Most people see "Dany being pretty and wanting to stake a claim" as being sufficient to make her the candidate, when in actuality I think there's more to it than that and I think it has a more personal angle than Dany can provide. Which was the point of my first post: Dany can't take what Cersei holds dear if Cersei will have already lost it all, or most of it, by the time Dany even arrives.

The point is that by the time Dany reaches to Cersei...Dany wouldn't have to put much of a fight with Cersei anyways. Basically I see Cersei as a Lady Macbeth/Hera type characters, she's been fighting and fighting her entire life and I expect her to fight until she burns out. One of Dany's primary motivations has always been to get to the Iron Throne, she was going to reach King's Landing whether there was a prophecy or not. The point is that if Cersei hadn't destroyed herself then Dany might have even had a chance of losing. But now, I don't expect it to be very difficult for Dany.

and I'm not saying that Brienne's inner beauty is more trite than Dany's but more that the Snow White plot is trite for Cersei's story.

And actually I would love it if Cersei turned out to be her own younger beautiful queen, but I feel like that's too meta even for GRRM.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

The "all that you hold dear" line implies something personal to me. You may disagree. And the younger person being anyone other than Margaery would satisfy the "unlikely person" angle, since Margaery is the one Cersei expects it to be.

Agreed. "all you hold dear" is extremely personal and sounds vindictive.

I have worked at the downfall of Tywin Lannister since the day they told me of Elia and her children. It was my hope to strip him of all that he held most dear before I killed him, but it would seem his dwarf son has robbed me of that pleasure.

This is an interesting interpretation. All you hold dear seems extremely personal for Cersei but no, I don't read it as meaning a personal connection. It might be though.

ETA: Even if you don't think there's a personal angle to it, that doesn't explain how Dany can take all that she holds dear when Cersei seems very likely to have already lost it all by the time Dany arrives, let alone by the time Dany arrives and is in a position to punish Cersei.

I do NOT think it will be Dany and I agree, there isn't much left for Cersei to lose:

Except that Sansa hasn't taken anything from her and all that would be left, at this stage of the story, is the throne itself. Tommen is Marge's Jaime is Brienne's and Myrcella won't be taken by Sansa either. All Sansa could take was the throne and while Cersei lives for power, the wording of the prophecy really implies taking many things Cersei holds dear.

Marge has taken Joffrey, Tommen AND the title of Queen at this point. Lyanna took Rhaegar and Robert. What has Sansa taken? What's left for her to take? And of course, the same applies to Dany. What's really left for her to take besides the throne? Again, I don't want to say the throne is not important to Cersei but it is not all that she holds dear.

[rondo has three heads]

All queens are younger, and for the most part more beautiful, than Cersei. They will either all play a hand, or Cersei will get the better of herself

[The Ned's Little Girl]

{snippage]

A lot of the rejection of this idea seems to spring from a dislike of the character rather than whether it fits.

I'm sorry, but that is nonsense.

Most people who think it isn't Dany do so because it makes less narrative sense. Nothing to do with like or dislike of her as a character.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The point is that by the time Dany reaches to Cersei...Dany wouldn't have to put much of a fight with Cersei anyways. Basically I see Cersei as a Lady Macbeth/Hera type characters, she's been fighting and fighting her entire life and I expect her to fight until she burns out. One of Dany's primary motivations has always been to get to the Iron Throne, she was going to reach King's Landing whether there was a prophecy or not. The point is that if Cersei hadn't destroyed herself then Dany might have even had a chance of losing. But now, I don't expect it to be very difficult for Dany.

and I'm not saying that Brienne's inner beauty is more trite than Dany's but more that the Snow White plot is trite for Cersei's story.

And actually I would love it if Cersei turned out to be her own younger beautiful queen, but I feel like that's too meta even for GRRM.

Sorry but I'm not really buying your argument here. Dany can't take all that Cersei holds dear if Cersei has already lost it by the time Dany gets there.

Meanwhile, Brienne looks poised to take Jaime from Cersei, and Sansa has already had a role in Joffrey's death and, through machinations with Littlefinger, could play a continued role still. Both of them are in far better positions to deprive Cersei than Dany, who would, by your logic, do it on what amounts to a technicality.

[larastone]

Sorry but I'm not really buying your argument here. Dany can't take all that Cersei holds dear if Cersei has already lost it by the time Dany gets there.

Meanwhile, Brienne looks poised to take Jaime from Cersei, and Sansa has already had a role in Joffrey's death and, through machinations with Littlefinger, could play a continued role still. Both of them are in far better positions to deprive Cersei than Dany, who would, by your logic, do it on what amounts to a technicality.

Dany is going to take away cersei's kingdom, the iron throne and I think cersei holds that dear above anything else after all the first line of her POV chapter is "she dreamt she say the iron throne, high above them all".... It's not about jaime or her children and I think that's telling. And sansa was a victim with the Joffrey murder accusation and brienne hasn't "taken" away jaime from cersei, people can't "take away".,. Jaime himself has chosen to refuse cersei and his reasons have more to do with him wanting to make his own decisions rather than prioritizing cersei above all else like he used to. At the moment jaime has picked himself over cersei, brienne hasn't "taken away" jaime from cersei lol

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Dany is going to take away cersei's kingdom, the iron throne and I think cersei holds that dear above anything else after all the first line of her POV chapter is "she dreamt she say the iron throne, high above them all".... It's not about jaime or her children and I think that's telling. And sansa was a victim with the Joffrey murder accusation and brienne hasn't "taken" away jaime from cersei, people can't "take away".,. Jaime himself has chosen to refuse cersei and his reasons have more to do with him wanting to make his own decisions rather than prioritizing cersei above all else like he used to. At the moment jaime has picked himself over cersei, brienne hasn't "taken away" jaime from cersei lol

And what if Aegon has already arrived and taken the throne from Cersei before Dany even gets there?

Jaime has made his own choice, sure, but a mind like Cersei's wouldn't see it that way. She'd rather believe that Brienne "stole" Jaime from her than think Jaime walked out on his own. Likewise, she wouldn't see Sansas as a victim in Joffrey's murder, only that Sansa had carried the poison that killed him.

But you ended your post in "lol" so you must be right.

[Mithras]

The point is that by the time Dany reaches to Cersei...Dany wouldn't have to put much of a fight with Cersei anyways. Basically I see Cersei as a Lady Macbeth/Hera type characters, she's been fighting and fighting her entire life and I expect her to fight until she burns out. One of Dany's primary motivations has always been to get to the Iron Throne, she was going to reach King's Landing whether there was a prophecy or not. The point is that if Cersei hadn't destroyed herself then Dany might have even had a chance of losing. But now, I don't expect it to be very difficult for Dany.

and I'm not saying that Brienne's inner beauty is more trite than Dany's but more that the Snow White plot is trite for Cersei's story.

And actually I would love it if Cersei turned out to be her own younger beautiful queen, but I feel like that's too meta even for GRRM.

In ASOIAF people die before getting their hearts' desires, especially after voicing them. I don't think Dany will take KL.

Quentyn did not want to die at all. I want to go back to Yronwood and kiss both of your sisters, marry Gwyneth Yronwood, watch her flower into beauty, have a child by her. I want to ride in tourneys, hawk and hunt, visit with my mother in Norvos, read some of those books my father sends me. I want Cletus and Will and Maester Kedry to be alive again.

I should have kissed one of the Drinkwater twins, or maybe both of them. I should have kissed them whilst I could. I should have gone to Norvos to see my mother and the place that gave her birth, so she would know that I had not forgotten her.

[larastone]

And what if Aegon has already arrived and taken the throne from Cersei before Dany even gets there?

Jaime has made his own choice, sure, but a mind like Cersei's wouldn't see it that way. She'd rather believe that Brienne "stole" Jaime from her than think Jaime walked out on his own. Likewise, she wouldn't see Sansas as a victim in Joffrey's murder, only that Sansa had carried the poison that killed him.

But you ended your post in "lol" so you must be right.

Well we can't answer some of these questions until we get the next two books. If GRRM has intended dany to be the younger more beautiful queen (which I personally think he has based in the text) then he'll make it happen.

I'm just thinking more of the endgame rather than the details on how to get there.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Well we can't answer some of these questions until we get the next two books. If GRRM has intended dany to be the younger more beautiful queen (which I personally think he has based in the text) then he'll make it happen.

I'm just thinking more of the endgame rather than the details on how to get there.

Aegon is already in Westeros. Dany is still in Essos, not really even near civilization. Aegon has a huge head start and he isn't going to sit on his ass waiting for Dany to get there. Varys killed Pycelle and Kevan and there's a very good theory that the Faith will turn from the Lannister-Tyrell bloc to support Aegon instead.

GRRM saying there'd be a second Dance suggests that Dany and Aegon will be fighting each other. If they're fighting each other, that suggests that the other rivals, namely Cersei's faction, have been dealt with. Aegon is already in Westeros, gaining ground and support, while Dany is out in the middle of the Dothraki Sea. So tell me, which one of them is likelier to be the one to sweep out the Lannisters?

Dany can't take all that Cersei holds dear if Aegon has gotten there early and beat her to the punch. I'm also going to venture to guess that the possibility that Aegon would be the one to topple the Lannisters in King's Landing hadn't actually occurred to you, seeing as I hadn't seen it acknowledged as a possibility before I brought it up.

ETA: I'm not saying that Aegon is the "younger, more beautiful" other. I'm saying that if you limit "all that you hold dear" to Cersei losing the throne, that's far likelier to come at Aegon's hands than Dany's at this point.