I truly don't get the Stannis apologisits...

[Dolorous22]

Burned, skinned, stabbed, beheaded, pushed, eaten, greyscale, head stoved in, impaled, pushed out of a windooooow, dismembered, drowned the list goes on. A trip to Westeros involves a variety of macabre tortures and punishments and a lot of you want to single out burning as particularly horrible? Sorry guys but I don't see Stan as some maniac who burns ppl. He has this guy saying 'this' and that woman saying 'that' and he's not overly bothered as long as it brings him one step closer to claiming the realm. Mel brought him results when others had failed him. Would you, understanding your enemy and what they are capable of, turn her away? "Nah it's cool forget the throne, let Shireen live her whole crappy life on DS with no one but Patchface for company. I'll just wait for this Dragon girl to ride on up and gratuitously kill everyone with dragon fire?"
"Yes I am the rightful heir to the 7k but I didn't want to make a fuss because some people think i'm too serious?"

Stan killed a brother who was ready to kill him right back. One was prepared to kill to reduce the line of succession the other to prevent another usurper. The realm, figuratively, p***es on him. Because he's too serious and should chill out, have a beer, go chase a boar.

I don't see many other Southren Lords involving themselves in matters of the realm such as, oh i dunno, Wildlings, white walkers, phony balony wedding that will potentially see a complete maniac ruling the largest Kingdom in the realm and the absurd amount of debt owed to the bank of Bravos that Cersei just waves off as unnecessary.

I cannot and will not say, Stannis is a good guy. Because he's not. But he's the best of a bad bunch. Doesn't derive pleasure from killing (or anything) Has demonstrated some form of duty to his realm. Has and is demonstrating some flexibility in his approach to varying customs. Faces insurmountable odds to achieve his goals. Rewards competence and loyalty. Isn't overly religious. Doesn't go whoring. And has been known to NOT BURN ppl, granting a quick death if they don't insult his intelligence or waste his time. He knows his pursuits will kill him. Does it anyway. Legend.

I also feel like I need to remind some ppl that as far as Stannis is concerned. Rhllor may well be real and may well require sacrifices. An education here on earth will have you sternly apposed to the idea but that's a luxury Stannis doesn't have.

That's just how I see him. Through the eyes of Davos, Asha, Theon, Cat. How you see him? Well, that's what makes these books great. GRRM has done such a fine job with Stannis that he divides opinion even in real life.

Sorry if I've repeated myself from my earlier post but the thread is so large that I cannot do a really tidy job. And to the OP. If you don't 'get' what I'm saying after this then you never will. And that's fine.

[paradositemp]

No need to be an apologist for him. No character is black and white, what's the point to justify some of character's dark spots? They make a more interesting character.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

Why isn't Stannis a good guy?

[Balerion the one eared cat]

OP, :agree: .

[Dolorous22]

No need to be an apologist for him. No character is black and white, what's the point to justify some of character's dark spots? They make a more interesting character.

Don't need to. But the OP said he didn't 'get' it so I took the opportunity to put it on a plate. Plus it's Sunday and I haven't got a lot on.

Why isn't Stannis a good guy?

He's a bit burny. Just let Cressen die, a word from him could of stopped that. Contemplates burning Ed Storm.

[Guard of the Rainking]

No the books. They were using Renly to get close to Robert; IE when Renly tries to gget Margaery wed to Robert.

I know the show mischaracterised, but thats because they adapt characters to make up for the ones cut for casting and cost reasons.

Dragonstone was under siege already, by Redwyne, who as you say was trying to starve them out. Loras wanted to end the siege quickly by rushing the castle. If it occured the way it did, Loras lost more than a thousand men to a token garrison. Considering Stannis' lack of support I'm guessing this was maybe 300-200, probably less.

Way less. In SoS it's stated that Stannis has 1 500 men on Dragonstone, and in DwD Davos states that Stannis sailed North with 1 500 men. The garrison on Dragonstone was probably composed of 50 or so men.

[Dolorous22]

He's not a good guy.

He's not a bad guy.

He's a righteous man, as GRRM said himself.

Regardless of anyones opinion of him, can anyone really deny that they would love to see Stannis get his hands on Joffery, Ramsay, Roose, Euron or all the other creeps out there?

Obviously not.

"Would all the lords of Westeros had but a single neck...

[PatrickStormborn]

No the books. They were using Renly to get close to Robert; IE when Renly tries to gget Margaery wed to Robert.

I know the show mischaracterised, but thats because they adapt characters to make up for the ones cut for casting and cost reasons.

Dragonstone was under siege already, by Redwyne, who was trying to starve them out. Loras wanted to end the siege quickly by rushing the castle. If it occured the way it did, Loras lost more than a thousand men to a token garrison. Considering Stannis' lack of support I'm guessing this was maybe 300-200, probably less.

And Renly was using them to get rid of the Lannisters... It hardly seems like they're manipulating him, does it? Provide some real evidence.

We know Stannis left 300 men at Storm's End, so let's assume he left less at Dragonstone. Even as little as 100 would be able to put up a significant fight - that's why castles aren't normally stormed. But Loras's goal wasn't to take Dragonstone with as few lives as possible. He had one goal: win the castle ASAP so the Redwynne Fleet can sail back to the Reach, which is under attack from Euron. He succeeded, and even led his own men into battle (well, reportedly).

[Minsc]

And?

My point was that he's willing to listen to the council of a lowborn smuggler over lords, and even then he recognises that mosts lords are idiots or glory seekers.

Where is Renlys lowborn companion?

Where is Stannis's woman kingsguard?

Anyway my point was the Tyrells were manipulating Renly.

Better the Tyrells (despite there being no proof of that charge) then Melisandra, who is pulling all of Stannis's strings.

[OrangeStallion]

Truthfully, reading the "Is Stannis Burning People Justified" just kinda set me off. I just don't get all the apologists for his actions throughout the series. Sure, he has some moments in the series where he does right, and even I found myself rooting for him. But those few moments don't change the fact that he's a hypocrite and frankly, a bad person.

First off, one thing I didn't see mentioned in the thread I read was the burning of Gunthor Sunglass and the remaining Rambtons. I mean, the Rambtons were just defending the faith they believed in, and had grown up with, from being burnt by a foreign "witch". Sunglass withdrew his support of Stannis following the burning of the 7 and how the Rambtons were dealt with. They were all imprisoned, then burnt for the red god. Stannis allowed this to happen, or, at the very least, did nothing after returning to Dragonstone and allowed Melisandre to continue her vile ways.

Going back in time, his dealing Renly is wrong as well. I don't care that Renly tried to usurp his crown. The crown that their very brother rebelled and ursurped himself. Kinslaying in Westeros is obviously a huge HUGE taboo. Using a shadowbinder and dark arts to kill a brother takes it to a whole new, unfreakinbelievable level.

Finally, the last thing I will note here (because I don't have all night) is the cursing of Robb Stark via blood magic. Robb never showed any hostility to Stannis what so ever. Heck, by default, they were actually allies. Didn't stop him from going through with a ceremony to curse him to death. He is too vain and spiteful to see the light.

Thats all I have for tonight.

If and only if the burnings yield actual results, be it devine intervention from R'hllor or increased morale and performance from soldiers who believe in R'hllor, then it can be justified PRACTICALLY, not MORALLY.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

Where is Stannis's woman kingsguard?

Better the Tyrells (despite there being no proof of that charge) then Melisandra, who is pulling all of Stannis's strings.

1. Renly himself mocked Brienne behind her back.

2. Melisandre is not pulling all of Stannis's strings, except in your imagination.

[Minsc]

1. Renly himself mocked Brienne behind her back.

2. Melisandre is not pulling all of Stannis's strings, except in your imagination.

1. Renly once referred to her wearing armor as absurd while reassuring his lover in private, who was upset with her. In contrast, Stannis acts like a straight up dick to individuals like Davos and Cressen repeatedly.

2. She is pulling more of his strings then the Tyrells were pulling of Renly's.

[James Arryn]

1. Renly himself mocked Brienne behind her back.

2. Melisandre is not pulling all of Stannis's strings, except in your imagination.

Mission accomplished, Minsc.

Now go make a puppy chase it's tail!

[OrangeStallion]

1. Renly once referred to her wearing armor as absurd while reassuring his lover in private, who was upset with her. In contrast, Stannis acts like a straight up dick to individuals like Davos and Cressen repeatedly.

2. She is pulling more of his strings then the Tyrells were pulling of Renly's.

I may disagree with #2. I think we know Mel is generally a religious fanatic who believes what she sees. I think she's genuinely trying to fight the Great Other, not trying to secure more power for herself.

The Tyrell's used their influence on Renly to marry him to margaery and usurp Stannis's claim to the realm.

Even though Mel is a religious extremist, her actions are arguably less manipulative for personal gain than the Tyrells.

[Minsc]

I may disagree with #2. I think we know Mel is generally a religious fanatic who believes what she sees. I think she's genuinely trying to fight the Great Other, not trying to secure more power for herself.

The Tyrell's used their influence on Renly to marry him to margaery and usurp Stannis's claim to the realm.

Even though Mel is a religious extremist, her actions are arguably less manipulative for personal gain than the Tyrells.

Just because she believes in her actions doesn't mean she is less destructive.

Neither Renly or the Tyrells usurped Stannis, as neither believed/knew he had a claim to the throne.

[Maid So Fair]

Both characters were still alive. Renly had the truth from Stannis a man known for being just. There was still time for him to do the right thing. Stannis even offered him generous terms, but Renly turned them down simply because "he had the bigger army".

Heck even Cat was convinced and Renly's response was "big deal".

'Just' men have been known to lie in circumstances where much less than a kingdom was at stake. Hell, Ned is universally considered pretty honourable and even he did. The only reason Catelyn believes him (and even she questions why he did not bring this up before)is because she incorrectly connects the incest to the murder of Jon Arryn. Renly has been busy moving against the Lannisters, calling his banners and arranging alliances and now he's expected to give all of his work over to Stannis because he finally deigned to show up based on his word? His refusal is perfectly understandable.

Because Stannis has never shown any signs of been a good ruler or leader?

Stannis had Davos made hand because he made good judgements. Renly made Nace his hand because he was his father in law.

I can't see Renly as been someone who would make a good king, but rather a puppet who is worked by the Tyrells. I mean it's clear the Tyrells had been using him to get into the court at kings landing for some time before hand.

Stannis's kingship qualities are irrelevant because the decision was never between Stannis and Renly, it was between Renly and Joffrey, and basically anyone would be a better King than Joff. There's also nothing that would suggest Renly would be particularly bad. But most importantly, why should everyone avoid making crucial decisions in a dangerous situation just because Stannis exists? Had he sat in his castle waiting on Stannis's word the army Stannis is after would not even exist.

Appointing Mace is hardly a sign of incompetence as he could hardly do otherwise - hell, Tywin appoints Mace to the council and no one is arguing Tywin has poor judgement. Even if we accept that proposition (and I think it was an alliance of equals for mutual benefit), there is nothing to suggest that the Tyrells are in any way evil, cruel or incompetent. Olenna, Garlan and even Mergeary are pretty competent at what they do and that's not even counting their other bannermen like Tarly.

[OrangeStallion]

Tywin may have appointed mace, but that wasn't poor judgement as much as it was keeping Mace happy. Its his men Tywin needs, not the Lord. Tywin could likely pretend that Mace is doing his good job when in reality Tywin's probably got Mace's duties covered too.

[Maid So Fair]

Tywin may have appointed mace, but that wasn't poor judgement as much as it was keeping Mace happy. Its his men Tywin needs, not the Lord. Tywin could likely pretend that Mace is doing his good job when in reality Tywin's probably got Mace's duties covered too.

And exactly why couldn't/wasn't Renly doing the same? He has as much reason to keep Mace sweet as Tywin does.

[OrangeStallion]

He was manipulated likely by Loras/Margaery/Queen of Thorns. Mace could have been convinced by either of those three also.

We don't really know in the books who the instigator is, but according to the show it seems pretty clear that Loras Tyrell is quite the schemer.

(of course show logic=/=book logic, but its still a possibility)

[Minsc]

He was manipulated likely by Loras/Margaery/Queen of Thorns. Mace could have been convinced by either of those three also.

We don't really know in the books who the instigator is, but according to the show it seems pretty clear that Loras Tyrell is quite the schemer.

(of course show logic=/=book logic, but its still a possibility)

Why was he likely manipulated by them when there isn't any proof of that. In fact, Olenna speaks her disapproval of the scheme when discussing the issue.

Show:Renly, Show:Loras, and Show:Margaery are completely different characters from their book counterparts. Much more then the two different Stannis, yet many Stannis fans don't seem happy with people using the show version of him in their arguments against him.