I truly don't get the Stannis apologisits...

[haemonculus]

Let's take a look at that scene, shall we?

Pure speculation.

But anyways, if Stannis followed by his own, rigid interpretation of duty he would have stayed and told Robert, no matter the consequences. Even if his death was certain. He asks no less from his followers.

But he (not totally unreasonably) bent his understanding of "duty" towards making sure House Baratheon's rule prevailed and let Ned take the risks, while preparing... whatever.

Renly did actually pretty much the same thing. From his perspective it was either making sure the Lannisters get what they deserve via the Tyrells or risking all that on behalf of his estranged brother, who had little chance of success. He made vengeance his duty, and Stannis was too weak to reach it. And then Stannis actually got in his way by marching on Storm's End.

In the end both did not do their actual duty, and both for very understandable reasons. But it was Stannis who marched on his brother, and Stannis who had his brother murdered during a mutually agreed ceasefire.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

Um, Tommen is a child. His reign has up till this point been controlled by various hands of the king and various regents.

Stannis, on the other hand, is a fully-grown adult man.

This is quite possibly the worst defence of any character I have seen.

The poster I quoted was claiming that since burning Sunglass was done in Stannis's name and for Stannis's benefit, Stannis killed Sunglass. By that faulty logic, Tommen rearmed the Faith. It's mean to be absurd.

[PatrickStormborn]

The poster I quoted was claiming that since burning Sunglass was done in Stannis's name and for Stannis's benefit, Stannis killed Sunglass. By that faulty logic, Tommen rearmed the Faith. It's mean to be absurd.

I am very well aware of your intention, but it's still absolutely absurd to make any comparison between them. Tommen's reign is a regency; Stannis is a legal adult. If he chooses to defer power, he is partially responsible for the consequences - particularly if he does nothing about it. That is the responsibility of those in power.

Similarly, some people in Westeros hold Cersei partially responsible for Joffrey's execution of Ned Stark because she was his regent.

[Maid So Fair]

The poster I quoted was claiming that since burning Sunglass was done in Stannis's name and for Stannis's benefit, Stannis killed Sunglass. By that faulty logic, Tommen rearmed the Faith. It's mean to be absurd.

Only if you also argue that Stannis has exactly as much control over his government as Tommen does.

Stannis was there to get Edric Storm... as a proof of a kind of the incest.

Renly wanted to kill Stannis because if the incest is true Renly himself accepts that Stannis claim is better

Source? If he just wanted Edric he could have asked Renly for him.

[Fat Mac]

I don't think you want to start talking about abandoning someone to die when trying to defend Stannis. At least Renly remained with his brother until his last breath. Stannis otoh was hiding on DS when he had vital information that could have saved his brother's life.

Or killed his brother faster.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

The poster I quoted was claiming that since burning Sunglass was done in Stannis's name and for Stannis's benefit, Stannis killed Sunglass. By that faulty logic, Tommen rearmed the Faith. It's mean to be absurd.

OK, then. What happened to those who actually decided to burn Lord Sunglass alive in King Stannis' name? Were they punished in any way? I dunno, at least something as little as house arrest? Did he duck Selyse's allowance? Pull Melisandre's ear? Nope, they're still in king's good graces, still issuing orders in his name. He not only gave them power, he let them keep it after Sunglass' auto da fe. I don't see how can we not hold him responsible, he took that responsibility himself.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

You'd rather he burn his wife alive?

When you bother to at least read my post before knee-jerk responding to it, I'll have an answer for you.

[l2 0 5 5]

It's the hipsters. Jon, Dany, Tyrion, and the Starks are too mainstream, so they latch onto a character who has no chance of becoming the most popular. You probably wouldn't understand why the burning was justified, it's not something mainstream people would get.

Yeah. It's the hipsters.

[Maid So Fair]

The fact Renly was at Storms End, and the fact Stannis was instrumental in holding the castle only increases the amount of respect Renly should have bloody well shown him.

If you believe Renly did not intend Stannis any harm, why did he declare himself king and expect Stannis, when he knows full well how his brother would react?

I find it funny how if not for Stannis, his future father in law likely would have took his head. Renly only cared about playing the part, that quote of Maester Cressens about Renly playing wizard or knight is a showing sign. Renly wanted to be king. He knew it would wrong hs brother. It was a clear usurpers choice, he had no right, no claim, yet he did it. In some ways Renly was the worst of the five kings, saved only by Jofferys sadism. Even then, at least Joff believed he had a claim.

I don't think anyone knew, much less full well, how Stannis would react. They are not mind readers and no one has heard from the man in over a year. Renly was in a desperate situation and had to move fast - why should he wait around for Stannis to stir himself? Especially when for all he knew Stannis would choose his duty to Joffrey, the rightful King if you are not aware of the incest. Why should he expect Stannis to choose military suicide over supporting his younger brother?

Having a good claim does not mean you would make a good King. Viserys had a great claim.

[sifth]

I don't think anyone knew, much less full well, how Stannis would react. They are not mind readers and no one has heard from the man in over a year. Renly was in a desperate situation and had to move fast - why should he wait around for Stannis to stir himself? Especially when for all he knew Stannis would choose his duty to Joffrey, the rightful King if you are not aware of the incest. Why should he expect Stannis to choose military suicide over supporting his younger brother?

Having a good claim does not mean you would make a good King. Viserys had a great claim.

Never the less after Renly learned the truth how did he react? He took the news as a joke and pretty much said, "so what, I still have the bigger army".

[Maid So Fair]

Never the less after Renly learned the truth how did he react? He took the news as a joke and pretty much said, "so what, I still have the bigger army".

He did not learn the truth, however, he just learned what Stannis claims is the truth but cannot be proven. Now, we know he is not lying but in-universe he has no evidence and the atrocious timing makes the whole story sound somewhat self-serving. By this time it's too late as the die is cast.

[sifth]

He did not learn the truth, however, he just learned what Stannis claims is the truth but cannot be proven. Now, we know he is not lying but in-universe he has no evidence and the atrocious timing makes the whole story sound somewhat self-serving. By this time it's too late as the die is cast.

Both characters were still alive. Renly had the truth from Stannis a man known for being just. There was still time for him to do the right thing. Stannis even offered him generous terms, but Renly turned them down simply because "he had the bigger army".

Heck even Cat was convinced and Renly's response was "big deal".

[Talleyrand]

Stannis had Davos made hand because he made good judgements. Renly made Nace his hand because he was his father in law.

Stannis had Alestar Florent hand because he is his uncle in law and Imry Florent command of the fleet because he was his brother in law

[Stannis's Lawyer]

OK, then. What happened to those who actually decided to burn Lord Sunglass alive in King Stannis' name? Were they punished in any way? I dunno, at least something as little as house arrest? Did he duck Selyse's allowance? Pull Melisandre's ear? Nope, they're still in king's good graces, still issuing orders in his name. He not only gave them power, he let them keep it after Sunglass' auto da fe. I don't see how can we not hold him responsible, he took that responsibility himself.

Where is the Stannis POV chapter in ASOS that you're all talking about?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Where is the Stannis POV chapter in ASOS that you're all talking about?

Ah, clever. You are right, what we know we must infer from other characters' POV's. A careful reader might infer, for example, that Stannis did not send Melisandre away back to Essos, he didn't execute her, he didn't imprison her, didn't even remove her from his circle of closest advisers. A careful reader might deduce that Selyse is still very much in power, with all those Queen's Men and even Queen's Hand (WTF?) around. Based on this, he might ask himself a question, should Stannis be held responsible for actions taken in his name and with his post factum approval? I say yes. You say "Stannis! Stannis! STANNIS!". I guess that's what they call "irreconcilable differences".

[Talleyrand]

And?

And you gave Renly shit for appointing his in-laws to positions of authority without merit yet its fine when Stannis does it twice. And while appointing Mace doesn't actually cause any harm Stannis in-laws turn out to be traitors and according to Davos incompetant

Oh, wait no he has his brother in law as his kings guards commander, despite him being a green boy, barring his tourney victories, which count for nought in a real war.

A Green boy, who according to the author is one of the best fighters in the Seven Kingdoms and more importantly for a member of the Kingsguard is utterly loyal and devoted to his King

[Buried Treasure]

Stannis appointed Davis because he could trust him and rely on him to speak up against plans he didn't agree with. It's similar to the reasons Robert had Ned as Hand, or Robb having the Blackfish's counsel or even Tywin and Kevin. It's no stroke of genius by Stannis, those are among the more useful traits to have in a Second.

It just speaks to the limited pool of people Stannis has around him that the only person with those desirable qualities is a lowborn knight who does not have the additional useful (though not essential) qualities of literacy, good birth and connections.

[Wild _Rover]

Everything Stannis does hes does because he ultimately believes that it is for the survival of the kingdom. I don't think you can say that about Renly who was basically like every other power hungry sleazy politician in KL. Case and point after Robert dies he wants need to take out Cersi in her sleep and kidnap Joff. That would have been a smart play but so was the red wedding and murdering the Targ kids and I don't really agree with those tactics especially when Renly just wanted the crown because of his vanity and the lifestyle that came with it. There is a reason why Stannis and Ned didn't work out in KL, because they actually cared about doing the right thing. Stannis is selfless and looks at the crown as a duty and a burden and is constantly doing things that he doesn't want to or agree with but does it anyway because he believes it will save millions of people not because he like burning people. I thought is was obvious that he only puts up with that stuff because Mel seems to be one of the only people who knows whats coming with the WW and has some kind of clue on how to deal with them.

[Talleyrand]

Good fighters make good leaders as much as good leaders make good kings. A lord commander is typically a well versed warrior, or combat veteran.

Loras' only leadership experience we hear of is the siege of dragonstone. In which, if it is true, he lost over a thousand men besieging a weekly garrisoned castle and managed to get himself boilesd alive in the proccess. If this is true that is, which I believe it is.

We have no examples of the White Bull leading any armies, nor Criston Cole before his appointment to Lord Commander, nor does Dunk strike me as some tactical master to be leading armies and the only battle we know Barristan had a leadership role in before his appointment as LC was a defeat where he was heavily wounded.

So where does it say that its neccessary for a LC to be a veteran commander? A Kingsguard needs to be able to fight and to be loyal to his King, which Loras is able to do far above the average.

The Tyrells wanted power as much as the Florents did. They killed off Joff, and are using Tommen as a pawn. Just as they used Renly.

The Tyrells were using Renly to extend their power, why is that so hard for you to realise. GRRM has dropped so many hints tht the Tyrells are sinister behind their exterior, why do you think their sigil is a rose?

BTW, I gave a shit that people accuse Stannis of incompetence, when Renly was incompotent with a mass of resources. Hard truths cut both ways...

And? i never said the Tyrells were never trying to advance their power, actually no one has. Equally the Florents have been trying to use Stannis as a gravy train to advance themselves just as much.

I responded to you claiming that Stannis appointing Davos was a sign he was a good ruler while Renly appointing Mace was a sign of a bad one when Stannis has made appointments based on marriage more times and with far worse consequences than Renly did.

[PatrickStormborn]

Good fighters make good leaders as much as good leaders make good kings. A lord commander is typically a well versed warrior, or combat veteran.

Loras' only leadership experience we hear of is the siege of dragonstone. In which, if it is true, he lost over a thousand men besieging a weekly garrisoned castle and managed to get himself boilesd alive in the proccess. If this is true that is, which I believe it is.

The Tyrells wanted power as much as the Florents did. They killed off Joff, and are using Tommen as a pawn. Just as they used Renly.

The Tyrells were using Renly to extend their power, why is that so hard for you to realise. GRRM has dropped so many hints tht the Tyrells are sinister behind their exterior, why do you think their sigil is a rose?

BTW, I gave a shit that people accuse Stannis of incompetence, when Renly was incompotent with a mass of resources. Hard truths cut both ways...

Loras didn't just besiege Dragonstone, he stormed the castle so that it would be taken quickly, allowing the Redwyne Fleet to leave the island so that it could be used to defend the Reach against the Ironborn.

There isn't really much evidence that the Tyrells "used" Renly. Maybe you're thinking too much about the show, which severely mischaracterised Renly, Margaery, Loras, and the rest of the Tyrells for that matter. The alliance between Renly and the Tyrells was mutually beneficial - Renly has the power to take down his enemies (the Lannisters), and the Tyrells gain influence and become part of the royal family.