Fae Boleyn Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 *cough*Hoster and Lysa*cough*That, at least, appears to have been somewhat out of usual character, horrible as it was. Though that he was willing to do it says a lot even if he was usually a decent father. My guess would be that's the pattern for most of the lordly fathers; willing to do extreme, hurtful things if it seems necessary, but not always.By this logic, Tywin should have punished Tyrion for Tysha - by, oh, forcing the annulment and sending Tysha away, punishing Tyrion with, idk, being forbidden to leave his chambers for a while, probably corporal punishment such as Yoren did to Arya. Which I'm not advocating, but in Westeros would be reasonable. Not gang rape of Tysha while Tyrion watches, followed by forcing him to rape her as well.But seriously, first people defend Randyll Tarly's parenting, now Tywin's. What's next? Gregor was totally justified in shoving Sandor's face into the fireplace for stealing his toy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 That, at least, appears to have been somewhat out of usual character, horrible as it was. I hardly think so. He putted whole village(s) to the sword because their lord didn't followed at the war. He seemed pretty ruthless. On top of her child's murder he sold her to a man old enough to be her grandfather. Hoster at least to Lysa was a terrible, monstrous father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raving Stark the Mad Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Greetings.I'd like to put across the idea that Tywin was not that bad of a father to Tyrion. If your argument is that he could have been a worse father, then I agree. If your argument is that he wasn't a bad father, I disagree. The fact that he could have been a worse father is possible, but not by much. Other then actually strangling Tyrion at birth, or casting him out to live in poverty (which may have been an improvement for Tyrion), I can't see how he could have been worse. Tywin, despite everything, is a good candidate for "worst father in Westeros". Tywin certainly wouldn't agree. Tywin modeled his behavior after the perceived shortcomings of his father. For Tywin, power, prestige, security, fear, and respect were everything. He provided those things. The question that the books ask: is that really what makes a good father? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fae Boleyn Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 I hardly think so. He putted whole village(s) to the sword because their lord didn't followed at the war. He seemed pretty ruthless. On top of her child's murder he sold her to a man old enough to be her grandfather. Hoster at least to Lysa was a terrible, monstrous father.What he did to villages doesn't apply, we're talking only about his parenting. That was war - everyone except probably Ned is awful in war, especially in Westeros.The marriage, under normal circumstances, would have made Lysa rich and secure her entire life. Cat's marriage could have gone wrong just as easily.I'm not defending arranged marriages, but using something every highborn parent would do against one parent is a little unfair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 I hardly think so. He putted whole village(s) to the sword because their lord didn't followed at the war. He seemed pretty ruthless. On top of her child's murder he sold her to a man old enough to be her grandfather. Hoster at least to Lysa was a terrible, monstrous father.From what Lysa told Sansa, she could have refused to marry Jon Arryn.Obviously the forcible abortion was an awful act, one that Hoster felt great remorse for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Obviously the forcible abortion was an awful act, one that Hoster felt great remorse for.Exactly. Tywin never felt remorse for Tysha, right up to his death, where he continues to call her a whore. Among the lords of the Great Houses, Tywin is by far the worst parent, followed by Balon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 I hardly think so. He putted whole village(s) to the sword because their lord didn't followed at the war. He seemed pretty ruthless. He destroyed a village whose Lord (one of Hoster's bannerman) joined Aerys against the Tullys in a war. Not really an unusual thing to happen in wartime. There were plenty of villages destroyed on both sides during the war. As far as I remember the text stated that he had the village burned down but it did not say he put everybody to the sword. Here is wiki on it " Notch explains to her that Lord Hoster Tully had put the town to the torch after Lord Goodbrook remained loyal to King Aerys II during Robert's Rebellion" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fae Boleyn Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 From what Lysa told Sansa, she could have refused to marry Jon Arryn.Obviously the forcible abortion was an awful act, one that Hoster felt great remorse for.Which is why I think Hoster's actions at the time in forcing the abortion were outside his usual behavior - it wouldn't haunt him to the moment of his death if it was the kind of thing that fits in with his usual parenting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 What he did to villages doesn't apply, we're talking only about his parenting. That was war - everyone except probably Ned is awful in war, especially in Westeros.Robert wasn't awful, except of course the dragon spawns incident where he simply did nothing. I was talking about his character.The marriage, under normal circumstances, would have made Lysa rich and secure her entire life. Cat's marriage could have gone wrong just as easily.I'm not defending arranged marriages, but using something every highborn parent would do against one parent is a little unfair.A marriage sure. But another marriage could had made her happy. For him tho he only cared about selling her to the one who gave him more back not caring about her happiness. Again Jon was old enough to be her grandfather. She was only 16-17 and he was 65-61. How is that a good father? How is someone who cares only about himself a good father?From what Lysa told Sansa, she could have refused to marry Jon Arryn.Just like other characters could refuse the marriage? Her father made her marrying Jon, it is really obvious when Cat said how Lysa cried the day before her wedding.Obviously the forcible abortion was an awful act, one that Hoster felt great remorse for.And this makes it any better? When someone kills someone and then feels bad doesn't fix anything. Hoster more likely caused her health problems that lead to her so called madness.He destroyed a village whose Lord (one of Hoster's bannerman) joined Aerys against the Tullys in a war. Not really an unusual thing to happen in wartime. There were plenty of villages destroyed on both sides during the war. As far as I remember the text stated that he had the village burned down but it did not say he put everybody to the sword. Here is wiki on it " Notch explains to her that Lord Hoster Tully had put the town to the torch after Lord Goodbrook remained loyal to King Aerys II during Robert's Rebellion"Again, it was the village not the Lord. That is the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolf Lord's Daughter Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Of course Tywin was a great father to Tyrion! And Gregor only wanted to hold Aegon because he was such a cute little baby, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fae Boleyn Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 And Brandon or Ned could have been abusive.I'm not saying arranged marriages are good things, I said that already. I'm saying, it's not a specific mark against Hoster because it's what noble parents do, it's what they did in the real medieval world.Remember Cat cutting off Ned's misgivings about Joffrey by saying he's the Crown Prince? Remember how Doran knew nothing at all about Viserys but agreed to marry Arianne to him? What about Rickard Stark arranging a marriage that his daughter at least seemed unimpressed with, per Ned's memories?Hoster forcing an abortion on Lysa was horrific. Arranging a marriage to a man old enough to be her father? Unfortunately normal. Marriage is business in this world, not about making anyone happy. And actually, Lysa's deal, to some, is great - it's likely she'll outlive her husband, then she's a rich, titled widow. And such a woman has more autonomy than any other highborn in a medieval setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrion the Perfect Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Xenoharmonic: Great thread! Also enjoyed your Was Jon Snow raped by Ygritte thread. Keep up the good work. :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Just like other characters could refuse the marriage? Her father made her marrying Jon, it is really obvious when Cat said how Lysa cried the day before her wedding.And this makes it any better? When someone kills someone and then feels bad doesn't fix anything. Hoster more likely caused her health problems that lead to her so called madness.point.Oh, I'm sure Lysa hated the idea of marriage to Jon. She wanted to marry LF. But, she did tell Sansa she expected Jon to die quickly, and so she agreed to it. No doubt Hoster told her that no other high lord would want a bride who wasn't a virgin.No, it doesn't make it better. It does suggest it might have been out of character Hoster to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Oh, I'm sure Lysa hated the idea of marriage to Jon. She wanted to marry LF. But, she did tell Sansa she expected Jon to die quickly, and so she agreed to it. No doubt Hoster told her that no other high lord would want a bride who wasn't a virgin. I really don't believe that she had any saying, she was most likely pushed to saying yes.Do you really believe that if she told no Hoster would had gave a damn about that? No, it doesn't make it better. It does suggest it might have been out of character Hoster to do this. No it doesn't. All the hypocrites do the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenKing23 Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 These threads remind me of the post my brother puts on facebook. Pure bullshit, but because its a hot topic people argue over the shit like it matters while the OP just sits back and laughs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 He forced his son to sit by and watch while a large number of people raped the girl he loved/was infatuated with and then participate himself. He emotionally abused his son for his entire life. Anyone that suggests he is a good father is doing it for the sake of simply being a contrarian troll, or else they should not be trusted with children of their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 I agree with the general idea of this thread, but only if the point is NOT to argue that Tywin was a stand-up guy (he isn't), but rather to point out that Tyrion does not get a free pass for all of his own bad behavior, because of some supposedly abused and neglected childhood.Tyrion was not abused and neglected. If anything, he was spoiled. He had the best food, the best clothes, nurses to nurse and mother him, maesters to educate him, septons to teach him religion, and the wherewithal to buy and read any books his father's money could afford. Perhaps his father could not be bothered to give him this guidance personally, but that does not mean he lacked for support.There was no crossbow to his head when he betrayed his own wife, and participated in her gang-rape. That is a fan fantasy. Father and Son both are guilty of that crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Because... Ya know...Its not like Lysa ever tried to force someone to marry Sweet Robin or anything like that....Yeah...Did I ever said that she didn't? In any case tried to is the magic word. Lysa was forsed but her plan was to marry Sansa to Robin something that is quite logical, x character doesn't help y character without any gain, but she hadn't done it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady jellybean Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Oh, I'm sure Lysa hated the idea of marriage to Jon. She wanted to marry LF. But, she did tell Sansa she expected Jon to die quickly, and so she agreed to it. No doubt Hoster told her that no other high lord would want a bride who wasn't a virgin.No, it doesn't make it better. It does suggest it might have been out of character Hoster to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady jellybean Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 She was lucky someone like JA was willing to marry her, and lysa's father had to get her married what was his other options having her become a silent sister? Live at riverrun after her brothers marriage? Its not like women in that sitiation can get a job and move out. He thought he was doing the best for her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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