Tywin was not that bad of a father to Tyrion.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Silly question, why do you keep saying 'grandfather' as if Jon Arryn was Lysa's ACTUAL relative? Just curious, am I missing something or you are just not typing off the whole phrase...........old enough to be her grandfather?

Lol the second one.

IMO, most the supposed horror of Lysa's marriage is her own damn fault, and here is why I think this. I'm guessing here, but....I think she probably could have had the Selyse Baratheon deal and sat in the Eeyrie by herself most the time, with a few visits with the hubby for social sake and convention but Ms. BSC Lysa CHOSE to be in KL with her husband so she could be close to the Creepfinger. Sympathy for crazy bitches who help start wars that kill many, including her own relatives, is lacking, sorry.

Can you blame a teen for not wanting to be alone away from every kind of fan? Because that is what she was a teen.

Theres no redeeming her. You're acting as if it was Jons fault. Did Lysa ever do enything to improve her life?

No, in fact she made it worse.

In her mind she did. She killed her captor, that is what I would had done without a second thought, the only difference is that I would had done it the first nigh.

Thanks to her the future ruler of the vale is so weak and childish that his lords could tear the vale apart if they wished. Her sister and her son were slaughtered, but why should Lysa care right? Her family didn't deserve her help because hell Cat and Edmure definately had a say in what happened to her? And if not they probably wronged her at some unmentioned point anyway right?

Lysa's family was safe when her siblings were involved in a war. Why Lysa should care about them the moment afawk they didn't cared about her?

If youre a victim who becomes a criminal you're still a criminal.

Sure. But you have reasons to be.

You're saying it would be better for Lysa to be burdened with the bastard of a lesser lordling who never loved her than be the wife of one of the most powerfull men in Westeros?

Because social status equals happiness? From all we know JArryn was always cold. Why Lysa should be happy with a mid 60s year old who is cold? What he had ever done for her rather than maybe cause her multiple stillbirths and miscarriages?

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Lol the second one.

Can you blame a teen for not wanting to be alone away from every kind of fan? Because that is what she was a teen.

In her mind she did. She killed her captor, that is what I would had done without a second thought, the only difference is that I would had done it the first nigh.

Lysa's family was safe when her siblings were involved in a war. Why Lysa should care about them the moment afawk they didn't cared about her?

Sure. But you have reasons to be.

Because social status equals happiness? From all we know JArryn was always cold. Why Lysa should be happy with a mid 60s year old who is cold? What he had ever done for her rather than maybe cause her multiple stillbirths and miscarriages?

Ok thanks and LOL, I was just curious if I was missing something in this Tully/Arryn family tree. Although, I'm sure we'll eventually find something, just thought maybe it was recent.

Actually, yes, I can blame Lysa for a lot of it. Granted, I am working on supposition, but I highly suspect that while LF was in Gulltown (a job he had with Lysa's help), she might have even had different living arraingements and been more willing for travel in the Vale. I don't think the Eeyrie was a lonely and deserted place until Lysa herself made it so. Most of Lysa's really catastrophic decisions were made well past her teens, year after year, and with LF always in mind. It's hard to know, without much information on the day to day existance of everyone before Jon Arryn's death, but it seems easy to figure out the continuing motivation for years on end, well past her teens, IMO, anyway.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

Why are people discussing Lysa in a Tywin thread?

[Trickrs]

Because social status equals happiness? From all we know JArryn was always cold. Why Lysa should be happy with a mid 60s year old who is cold? What he had ever done for her rather than maybe cause her multiple stillbirths and miscarriages?

Except she wouldn't be happy with Petyr.

In fact, considering that Hoster would basically ignore her, she would be completely useless for his schemes.

[Crow's eye in the sky]

Why are people discussing Lysa in a Tywin thread?

Because this became "the father of the year" thread

contenders include...

Craster: sure, he may be guilty of more counts of kinslaying than anyone else in the series, but he did love his daughters. He didn't kill them and he even sheltered them.

Randyll Tarly: Because bathing your son who is nothing like you in ox blood is a great example of parenting. Oh, but following Dickon's birth, dear old dad had the decency to let Sam be for a few years before threatening to kill his firstborn if he didn't exile himself to a frozen death sentence in the company of rapers, thieves and murderers.

Balon Greyjoy: Despite his assholish reception of Theon, not to mention a ridiculous burning desire to get revenge on the Starks for trying raise Theon as an honorable man and not a glorified armed robber, he stayed his hand as long as Theon was still a hostage.

Hoster Tully: He may have arranged the abortion of his future grandchild, but he was still a great father to his other children.

And of course Tywin Lannister: Honestly, Jaime was the only one he truly gave any fucks about. He hated Tyrion for killing Joanna in childbirth (as if he could be blamed for that), but also because having a dwarf son was considered a judgement of the seven for making himself too powerfull in the eyes of gods and men (I kind of want this to be true). Don't forget that he went to war for Tyrion's abduction and yet he was totally setting up Tyrion to die on the Green Fork. On the good side of the coin, he allowed Tyrion to live in relative opulence (as opposed a little more opulence that the rest of his family enjoyed). He even tried and eventually found a suitable (but not very willing) wife for Tyrion (no comment on the first one). It never fails to amuse me that Tywin Lannister could have left his legacy in good hands if he had been a better father to his children.

[VeryVarys]

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I would add just a few things, in no particular order. Pardon me repetitions of other posters:

1) Tywin is a big ol' failure as a parent. Yes he is, and to all three of his children. Of course he's not the only one—Hoster was pretty much a dud, Ned & Cat aren't perfect, Lysa is a horror, Balon worse than a disaster, and so on.

2) With Tywin and Hoster, it seems that the deaths of their wives in childbirth contributes to this significantly. With the mothers gone missing, their daughters are left pretty helpless, in the hands of fathers who haven't got a clue about what their world is like for women.

2a) Consider Cersei, deranged by her bitterness at the profound sexism of everything north of Dorne (I support Dornish law: she should indeed have been heir, however dreadful she is) but also by her father's grandiose aims for his family. I'm not excusing her, but wouldn't she be more likely to restrain her horrible impulses if she'd been taught anything at all about politics?

2b) Jaime clearly has fled Tywin's excessive control by refusing EVER to rule.

2c) As for Tyrion, well, a steady diet of humiliation and loathing doesn't really go down any better with spoonfuls of gold. Not a surprise that he would eventually snap.

3) Hoster seems to have been more often neglectful than actively malevolent, but even a little instruction might have made Lysa less of a fool and a simpleton about sociopaths like LF.

4) More generally, I think the whole series is interesting about the vicious consequences of sexism in Westeros. And missing mothers are an important aspect of this.

5) A contrast that helps support my claim: look at how much smarter about the world the Tyrells are. And who else but the QoT is responsible?

6) Last comment: Arianne misunderstands something she wasn't supposed to know. Given the state of the rest of the realm, perhaps she thought Prince Doran had succumbed to unDornishness...

[Pod The Impaler]

But seriously, first people defend Randyll Tarly's parenting, now Tywin's. What's next? Gregor was totally justified in shoving Sandor's face into the fireplace for stealing his toy?

:agree: Really. What the hell, people? Tywin is beyond even the medieval standard of "normal" parenting, or even harsh parenting. Tywin is a monster.

Tyrion was not abused and neglected. If anything, he was spoiled.

Case in point, the above statement.

Hated and despised, born guilty for circumstances he is not responsible for nor ever could change. Physically and emotionally brutalized by his own father and sister since infancy. Has it hammered into his head that he is esstentially worthless as a person, can never be a real son, and that his Lannister name is the only reason he is even alive. How dare he try to be useful or talented, how dare he have any joy in life, how dare he even try to be a man. Before he gets any more ideas about trying, let's nip all that in the bud by making sure to manipulate this boy so he destroys the girl who treated him like a human being and whom he actually loves, because a monster is all he ever could or should be.

Oh yeah, Tyrion was not abused, his life was easy. Cause he had his father's money. :rolleyes:

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Oh yeah, Tyrion was not abused, his life was easy. Cause he had his father's money. :rolleyes:

The funniest thing is I was actually asked for receipts. I provided of course with specific quotes and cases of Tywin abusing his son, but you know: EVERY TYRION CHAPTER PRE-ADWD WOULD HAVE ALSO HAVE WORKED. I COULD HAVE JUST THROWN AGOT, ACOK AND ASOS IN THEIR GENERAL DIRECTION IN RESPONSE.

[Pod The Impaler]

The funniest thing is I was actually asked for receipts. I provided of course with specific quotes and cases of Tywin abusing his son, but you know: EVERY TYRION CHAPTER PRE-ADWD WOULD HAVE ALSO HAVE WORKED. I COULD HAVE JUST THROWN AGOT, ACOK AND ASOS IN THEIR GENERAL DIRECTION IN RESPONSE.

Well, I find the abridged version works just as well. Especially when I have to get ready to go to work. ;)

[ChillyPolly]

:agree: Really. What the hell, people? Tywin is beyond even the medieval standard of "normal" parenting, or even harsh parenting. Tywin is a monster.

Tywin is a monster, yes. But it does not matter. Tywin did not raise his son. Servants did.

Case in point, the above statement.

Hated and despised, born guilty for circumstances he is not responsible for nor ever could change. Physically and emotionally brutalized by his own father and sister since infancy. Has it hammered into his head that he is esstentially worthless as a person, can never be a real son, and that his Lannister name is the only reason he is even alive. How dare he try to be useful or talented, how dare he have any joy in life, how dare he even try to be a man. Before he gets any more ideas about trying, let's nip all that in the bud by making sure to manipulate this boy so he destroys the girl who treated him like a human being and whom he actually loves, because a monster is all he ever could or should be.

Oh yeah, Tyrion was not abused, his life was easy. Cause he had his father's money. :rolleyes:

The final statement is meant to be sarcasm. But it's true. He had his father's money, he had his father's servants, and he had a lordling's status. Did he not have his father's love? Too bad. I don't think anyone else in Westeros really has Tywin's love either, but the world is full of people to love, and to love you back, and as a lordling of Casterly Rock, Tyrion had plenty of opportunity to get to know people less fortunate than himself and make friends with them. For God sake, did not Ser Dunk have a more deprived childhood than Tyrion Lannister?

Your statement is indeed a case in point - precisely the type of self-pity-fest that turns potentially-decent human beings into monsters. Poor poor Tyrion. He wanted Casterly Rock, but his evil daddy only gave him Winterfell. Poor poor Tyrion! He wanted ALL the credit for saving King's Landing, rather than merely some of the credit. Poor poor Tyrion! He wanted the girl he kidnapped at bladepoint to love him just for who he was but she didn't so he just had to strangle her to death. Poor poor Tyron! He wanted the starving girl he fed and got drunk and took advantage of to love him just for who he was, but when his bro told him she might want some of his precious gold he gang-raped her and discarded her. Poor poor Tyrion. Cersei lets Jaime screw her but not poor Tyrion.

Nobody wants poor Tyrion? Not at all. The Wall would love to have a clever, educated man like Tyrion. So would the Faith. Or the Citadel. But Tyrion does not want to serve, he wants to rule. Tyrion does not want to give, he wants to take. And therein lies the real problem. The world MUST revolve around Tyrion and his pride and self-pity.

[Lord Freypie]

(...)

Tyrion's education must have been very bad to turn him into such an ambitious and self-pitying monster.

I wonder who was responsible...

[sifth]

He had his sons wife gang raped

yea Tywin was a saint, lol

[ChillyPolly]

Tyrion's education must have been very bad to turn him into such an ambitious and self-pitying monster.

I wonder who was responsible...

A bunch of servants, nurses, maesters, septas and septons? Surely you were not going to suggest that Tywin performed all these functions himself?

[Lord Freypie]

I guess all the good personnel was already taken by the Starks, Tyrells and Tullys.

That should explain all the Lannisters childs problems.

[Ramsay Gimp]

It was a complex relationship, but ultimately a very negative one.

[Fae Boleyn]

I'm not excusing what Tywin did. He too is guilty of raping Tysha, as well as corrupting his own son. What I am doing is refusing to excuse what Tyrion did.

And I do not accept that there was a crossbow to his head, because there is absolutely no evidence for this.

I am not calling him a rapist because I am "taking his boner as proof of agreement". I am calling him a rapist because he stuck his dong in her without her consent. And because there was no crossbow leveled at his head, to justify any claim of duress or coercion. And because he spent 13 years justifying his crime to himself, instead of trying to find her and make some kind of amends for what he did.

Of course there was no literal crossbow to his head. Tywin doesn't operate like that.

Remember Cersei raging against being remarried or shipped back to the Rock? Remember how absolutely no one seemed to think she could really fight back? The Lannister kids are conditioned not to defy Tywin. Even Jaime, the best at it, struggles. They are all psychologically dependent on what Tywin would have thought, Tywin's legacy, his demands. Yes, as adults Cersei and Tyrion manage petty defiances, but at thirteen? At thirteen, with a father he and his siblings are still, deep down, terrified of as adults? You honestly think Tyrion was capable of defying Tywin so thoroughly and openly (his marriage was in secret; a secret defiance is easy)? Especially considering the violence he'd just watched his father order? Tysha being gang raped is a horrible trauma for her and I would never say otherwise; I am sure it was also terrifying to watch.

Tywin gave the order. "He had me go last." We know this. Finding the nerve to refuse any order in that moment is quite a lot to ask of anyone, given the context. This is not a case of Tyrion watching this and going, oh, I'll join in. There is more than one type of coercion. And, by any modern standards, Tywin ordering this means he made Tyrion a victim too. Which is not to say I believe Tysha should forgive Tyrion - I wouldn't if I were her. I am only saying that to declare Tyrion raped Tysha of his own free will, that he wasn't Tywin's proxy and second victim, is a deliberate misreading of the text. You hate Tyrion, fine. He's done many hateful things willingly. This is not one of those things.

[ummester]

I dislike the victim mentality - individuals are primarily responsible for their own actions, whatever their circumstances.

Tywin is responsible for being a pretty callous father. Tyrion is responsible for letting Tywin get to him. It doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.

[donald*rain]

''awkward silence''.

lol

[thelittledragonthatcould]

First, the whole, "You had your guards gang rape and then made me rape my 14 year old wife. When I was 14 years old."

That is an awful, sick thing to do. Had Cersei married a pig farmer, he too would have been tortured and killed. This is not Tywin singling Tyrion out.

The sad thing is the society of Westeros is fucked up. Not just Tywin but across the board. They all believe that they are better than their subjects. We have been told repeated cases of Lords raping their subjects, we know how one Lord sold people into slavery or how a fair punishment for stealing is losing your hand. It is not a nice place for the smallfolk.

We have an indication of what the Nobility thinks of the peasants, Robb says he will give a 100 to the Watch in return for Jon. 1 nobles is worth a 100 peasants.

It is awful. But Tywin is hardly alone in treating them like shit.

"You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning." (says the dude who has teenage girls gang-raped).

This is classic Lannister tit for tat. Tywin is better at cutting down people with words then Tyrion is, but then Tyrion is able to do it better than Cersei and Joffrey. The Lannisters love that shit.

And to be fair, he's making demands of his father, the Lord of his House. It is just not done. Demanding Csterly Rock was an outrageously stupid move.

"Perhaps you should be dressed in motley as well."- Deriding Tyrion for his childhood whim to be a jokester and entertainer a direct reference to his dwarfism.

You are reaching with the ableism, here.

For someone who apparently is an ableist he has no problem giving Tyrion a command position in the battle of Grren fork or making him his stand in Hand at Kings Landing, not Kevan or some other Westerland Lord but Tyrion.

The time that Tywin told Tyrion the only reason he wasn't killed was because he was a Lannister i.e. Tyrion's dwarfism make him all but worthless as a human.

Again, you are blaming Tywin for how that society treats people with disabilities. Look at how they treat Bran.

Harrion Karstark, the oldest of Lord Rickard's sons, bowed, and his brothers after him, yet as they settled back in their places he heard the younger two talking in low voices, over the clatter of wine cups. " . . . sooner die than live like that," muttered one, his father's namesake Eddard, and his brother Torrhen said likely the boy was broken inside as well as out, too craven to take his own life.

Robert Baratheon, friend of the his father thinks the same, that he should be put out of his misery.

Tywin Lannister was ableist and abused his children, but especially Tyrion.

Tywin was no more an ableist than the majority of the population of Westeros.

Once again people are judging characters they don't agree with on modern day sensibilities. If my father took me to watch him chop a mans head off when I was 8 years of age, he'd be locked up for child abuse. In Westeros it is perfectly understandable

Tywin's a great character, and also an asshole.

True.

[Ser Yo of House Lo]

People can't seem to shake the fact that in the grand scheme of things, Tywin wasn't that bad. Cold yes, necessarily so. Tyrion did have a lot of money, and a lot of as well. But he shares some of the blame as well, constantly whoring and drinking despite the dozens of times Tywin preached to him about Family and Legacy.(Which are pretty much the same thing).

1. Tyrion was made the Hand of the King, I've never seen another Lord give someone that much power out of spite. Yes, it was dangerous, but not as dangerous as having him in the field.

2. He was going to allow to take the Black. Not the most sought after forms of mercy, but much more preferably than beheading.

People are judging Tywin's ability as a father from today's standards, rather than that of a High Lord in Westeros.