Tywin was not that bad of a father to Tyrion.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Not a great father by any stretch, but I think I would prefer him to Randyll Tarly!

Mehhh. I'd prefer Dad send me to freeze my balls off on the wall, rather then arrange for the gang raping of my wife.

[kimim]

What Tywin did to Tysha was certainly more targeted, purposeful cruelty, which I think is worse morally than simply following the normal pillaging conventions of the time.

And however some might try to minimize that rape, a lord specifically ordering a mass rape is not something we see anywhere else. In fact, we do know that some other lords hung rapists, so it is not something that is universally accepted as simply okay.

Tywin did that for a reason, and if it really was no big deal, then there would have been no purpose to him doing it in the first place. GRRM also shows us -- through Jaime making that the one point he raises with Tyrion after his rescue from the dungeon -- that even a third party recognize it for being a hugely traumatic, major event in Tyrion's life, which simply wouldn't be the case if it was something that wasn't that bad. And by extension, the shock/trauma to Tyrion from simply witnessing that must have been far worse for the girl suffering it.

Honestly, I think that act of Tywin's is probably the worst, most malignant act any character in the book other than the Bastard has committed. It's not part of the culture in which they all were raised, and there was no financial or other gain to Tywin. It was simply targeted, pure cruelty upon a complete innocent.

THIS. It might be worse than what Ramsey does. Ramsey is a sadist, and not always in control of what gets him off. Tywin is completely in control. What he does is pure cruelty without even sadism as an excuse, and he does it to his own son. It's mind bogglingly evil.

[ChillyPolly]

Tyrion thought she was a prostitute hired by his brother , that's what Jaimie told him and he trusted him 100%. So in Tyrion mind he was not betraying his wife since he did not believe she was his wife,

Huh? What?

What did Jaime's story have to do with anything? So she's not a starving, desperate virgin girl menaced by bandits ... she's really a starving desperate virgin girl menaced by Jaime and the pimp he hired to procure her. Makes no difference. He knew Tysha was innocent. He knew she was a virgin when he took her maidenhood.

And he did indeed know she was his wife. He knew he made the vows to her, and she made the vows to him. He was present when the vows were made.

And you really think calling a girl names, and naming her "whore" (a virgin whore, no less) justifies gang-raping her? WTF??? You really think the suspicion that your wife might have not have merely married you for your pretty face, but might also hope you would share some of your wealth to support her and her children, justifies gang-raping her?

[Lady Flandrensis]

Oh sure, Tywin Lannister for father of the year! What a great guy, he didn't kill his son! Yay!

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Because neither Hoster or Jon ever gave anything to Lysa?

They did. They gave her many stillbirths and miscarriages which caused her mental issues.

We're talking about a world where arranged and forced marriages are common place.

Look at Cat. She was forced to marry the brother of her dead betrothed. Do you think she wanted that?

Or Cersei been forced to marry a man who beat her?

How about the fact Sansa was going to be made to marry Joff, then was made to marry Tyrion?

Maybe Edmure gets some sympathy since his narriage went down swimmingly...

My point is Lysas situation is treated as unique when really it isn't.

Again; what happened to Lysa it was not only the fact that they made her to marry her grandfather. Is also the fact that Hoster killed her child and caused her health problems which affected her future pregnancies something that caused her mental issues.

We know from what we hear of hear from characters like Cat that she was always emotionally quite weak, even before all of this, falling for men.

And being emotionally weak justifies what happened to her? Lol ok.

We also see Hoster in tears saying he only did what he did to make Lysa happy. How else was she going to find that happiness in a mysoginistic world?

No we don't. All we see is him saying that she will have more trueborn children, nothing about her happiness. He was looking after himself not Lysa.

[Blackfish Tully]

Huh? What?

What did Jaime's story have to do with anything? So she's not a starving, desperate virgin girl menaced by bandits ... she's really a starving desperate virgin girl menaced by Jaime and the pimp he hired to procure her. Makes no difference. He knew Tysha was innocent. He knew she was a virgin when he took her maidenhood.

And he did indeed know she was his wife. He knew he made the vows to her, and she made the vows to him. He was present when the vows were made.

And you really think calling a girl names, and naming her "whore" (a virgin whore, no less) justifies gang-raping her? WTF??? You really think the suspicion that your wife might have not have merely married you for your pretty face, but might also hope you would share some of your wealth to support her and her children, justifies gang-raping her?

"When Lord Tywin Lannister found out, he had Jaime tell Tyrion that Tysha was a whore who had been paid to make Tyrion a man"

Tyrion believed Jaimie and why wouldn't he , He trusted Jaimie 100%.

For the record I did not name her a "whore" I said that Tyrion believed that she was a prostitute hired by his brother which is exactly what happened.Tyrion did not believe she was his wife after Jaimie's story , he belived it had all been a cruel joke.

[Lord Freypie]

Tyrion was 14 years old, and probably had no access to any advice at this time other than the one of his lord father telling him it was normal to (rape) a "whore" as long she was paid.

(rape) with parenthesis because I doubt Tywin would even have used such term for a whore, but rather installed the idea in his young son mind that whores couldn't by definition be "raped" (pure rape culture).

IMO it mostly add to Tywin bad fathering that he gave such an extremely bad education to his child.

[qrl]

In the big picture, Tywin does not give a fuzz about Tyrion or his other children. They are only his tools in some way. On a personal level, you cannot justif any of Tywin's doings towards Tyrion.

[ummester]

Tywin could have been a worse father - he let Tyrion live.

[Lord Freypie]

Tywin could have been a worse father - he let Tyrion live.

Yes look like the only argument to say he wasn't that bad of a father.

And even only time will tell if being killed early wouldn't have been better for Tyrion.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Yes look like the only argument to say he wasn't that bad of a father.

And even only time will tell if being killed early wouldn't have been better for Tyrion.

It's hardly the only argument. Not only did he let him live, he let him live in fabulous luxury, funding his trips around Westeros. Tyrion the Imp is basically a famous playboy in Westeros drinking and whoring as he pleases and using his family name to get him out of trouble.

Every good thing Tywin has done for him in the series is twisted. Tyrion gets kidnapped - Tywin actually goes to war to get him released is somehow twisted as a negative. Tywin makes him Hand, makes him Master of Coin on the Small Council. Tywin in the past has tried to wed him to Lyssa Tully and other prominent Ladies of the Realm he finally giver him Sansa, who was wanted by the Heir of Highgarden, and that is twisted.

Tyion has it better than 99% of the population.

Tywin does not hug. Get over it.

[ChillyPolly]

"When Lord Tywin Lannister found out, he had Jaime tell Tyrion that Tysha was a whore who had been paid to make Tyrion a man"

Tyrion believed Jaimie and why wouldn't he , He trusted Jaimie 100%.

Who cares whether Tyrion trusted Jaime? Tyrion knew Tysha was a virgin when he took her. And he knew she was now his wife. And Jaime confirms that she was a virgin - claiming he paid double to procure a virgin (probably to some pimp).

For the record I did not name her a "whore" I said that Tyrion believed that she was a prostitute hired by his brother which is exactly what happened.Tyrion did not believe she was his wife after Jaimie's story , he belived it had all been a cruel joke.

Yes, I get that. You are merely following Tyrion's lead when you try to justify Tyrion's gang-rape of his own wife by dehumanizing her and calling her a whore. But it's bullshit, and we can see that it's bullshit in Tyrion's own point of view.

The accusation that she was a "whore" has nothing to do with not being his wife. Tyrion knew that she was his wife. He explicitly acknowledges she was his wife in the text by telling Bronn that he was married once. And he knew that Tywin's annulment rationalizations were hollow.

The only part of Jaime's story that he really believed, and that isn't just a semantic self-justification, is that Tysha married him primarily for his money and not out of love. But this, even if true, justifies neither gang rape nor spousal abandonment.

[Jasta11]

I hardly think so. He putted whole village(s) to the sword because their lord didn't followed at the war. He seemed pretty ruthless. On top of her child's murder he sold her to a man old enough to be her grandfather. Hoster at least to Lysa was a terrible, monstrous father.

Arranged marriages are a thing for everyone. As far as husbands go, we know Jon Arryn was kind. Sure, he wasn't ideal in the least, but we cannot single out Hoster for that. Arranged marriages that end up working as well as the Catelyn/Ned union are an exception, not a rule.

Also, at the risk of painting a target on my back, Lysa kinda brought it on herself. She knew that, in her society, women having sex before marriage, with children even, was a big no-no. Yes, yes, it's sexist as hell, but it's how the world works. She did it anyway, not once but twice, and the second time she arguably raped Littlefinger so that he got her pregnant. So forgive me for thinking it's really not nearly as bad as the Tysha incident.

[No Song so Sweet]

OP, Why even start this thread? Why even say that, is there any point to it? OK, there could be worse things he could do to Tyrion but he was obviously a terrible father.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

Tywin just letting Tyrion live doesnt give him a free pass to keep him "on trial for being born a dwarf".

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Tywin just letting Tyrion live doesnt give him a free pass to keep him "on trial for being born a dwarf".

When did that happen?

[Balerion the one eared cat]

All the things you mentioned are no more than you'd expect of a father to his son - even more so, because he is from a highborn, prolific family, Tywin would have to keep up appearances, and has to do certain things to "look the part" and keep the Lannister reputation (I guess this explains why Tyrion is not allowed to bring a whore to court, but does it really matter if Tywin, Bronn and Varys are the only ones who know about her? The general public need not know).

While these few basic human rights that Tywin allowed Tyrion are fair enough, there are so very many things that Tywin did to Tyrion that are unforgivable.

Tysha - been discussed a thousand times. Family name and honour or not, this was his son's wife, by law his family, and Tywin's treatment of her was inexcusable. There are much, much kinder ways to teach his thirteen year old son the same lesson. The other thing this does is fuel Tyrion's lifelong inferiority complex towards Jaime.

Rejecting Tyrion as his heir, and denying him Casterly Rock which is, after all, his rightful inheritance - Jaime took the white when he was fifteen, IIRC. If Tyrion is eight years younger than Jaime and Cersei, Casterly Rock has been Tyrion's since he was seven years old, officially, and yet Tywin denies him of it simply because Tyrion is not Jaime, is not the "perfect son" Tywin wanted to carry on his legacy. In many ways Tyrion is the most loyal to the family of the Lannister children, with Jaime revoking all claims to being, and having, an heir, and Cersei being a defiant, selfish, manipulative (and eventually crazy) bitch... she's more loyal to her children (rightly so, I guess) who are technically Baratheon, and to herself, than to the rest of tha Lannisters. Tyrion does as he is bid by his father, and does his utmost to live up to his father's example as Hand, and actually does a decent job of looking after the realm and building the Lannister reputation. Yet Tywin denies him of his rightful seat simply for being a dwarf.

Allows Tyrion to ride into battle on the Green Fork with very limited fighting ability and dubious protection, and again with the sortie on the Blackwater. To quote Show!Tyrion: "surely there are ways to get me killed that are less detrimental to the war effort?"

The Trial - there is more that Tywin could have done to give Tyrion a fairer trial with a fairer outcome.

Finally, Shae - possibly the worst thing Tywin could do to his son. He knows Tyrion has genuine feelings for her, because he knows his son (that's why he hates Tyrion having a whore at court), and using her against Tyrion in the trial, and in subsequent acts, is entirely unforgivable and put the final nail in the coffin (heheh...) regarding Tywin's character.

Tywin is an evil dick and a terrible father who ruins his son's life. Nothing more to it.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

When did that happen?

Tyrion's whole life.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Tyrion's whole life.

That is a bit melodramatic, is it not?

Up until the first book Tyrion and Jon had better lives than the majority of the citizens in Westeros, yet many on here want to make out like their victims. It is nonsense.

[Lord Freypie]

It's not Tywin who made Tyrion "have a better life than the majority of the citizens in Westeros", it's Lannister's gold and him being born one of them.

Tyrion being rich was just expected since before his first breath.

And it would have been very detrimental to Tywin/Lannisters image if he had made his son live as a beggar.