JonSnow4President Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Hodor has been prepared by Bran for easy warging, just as the books say, it would be very easy for some other warg to take Hodor now... There is a loop-hole... A strongly foreshadowed loop-hole This is irrelevant, considering Mel's wording, it could go either way... But GRRM not going to go the way that you want... Basically, you don't like the idea of Jon Snow not being a hero, so you will oppose anyone else's views... I get that... You don't seem to understand how this works. Saying something is "strongly foreshadowed" doesn't support your idea. We obviously aren't getting what you're saying. So, the typical thing to do would be to say "I think this because A, B, and C" (or link to it). Instead, it's "It's supported. Stop being a negative Nancy!!" which won't convince anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 THE Rhaegar probably learned it before he ever intended to wed/run off/correspond with Lyanna if he discovered that she was the KotLT. I don't understand how readers can believe that a 14 year old girl can possibly be the Kotlt? The Idea that a 14 year old girl could have the strength to weld the same length lance that full grown knights were jousting with is preposterous... If GRRM truly intends that Lyanna is the Kotlt, then it is his most significant oversight yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 You don't seem to understand how this works. Saying something is "strongly foreshadowed" doesn't support your idea. We obviously aren't getting what you're saying. So, the typical thing to do would be to say "I think this because A, B, and C" (or link to it). Instead, it's "It's supported. Stop being a negative Nancy!!" which won't convince anyone. I've said it all before... it's pointless arguing with people who already have their minds made up... At least I'll be on record as being right when TWOW comes out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I've said it all before... it's pointless arguing with people who already have their minds made up... At least I'll be on record as being right when TWOW comes out... Once again, can you please provide a link to where you've said this all before, and not act like we're unreasonably dismissing "strongly foreshadowed" as a real argument without the actual foreshadowing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Addicted to Snow;Because it takes skill, balance and agility rather than brute strength. Even Jaime says as much.If it was a melee it would be a different story, she would be dead, and there would be no story.(See Lady Lance from tWoW~ a nod to Lyanna) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honeyed chicken Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 ^This. There's nothing to support the idea that he could warg another man. It goes against everything we've been told.1. A warg has to be extremely powerful to warg another human being. So far, only Bran or Bloodraven have shown they are powerful enough to do so. Jon is untrained as of his stabbing, and doesn't seem to be as strong as Bran is.2. A warg cannot jump from body to body in their second life. They can only do it from their original body, so Jon CANNOT pass from Ghost to another human being without going into his own living body first.3. Melisandre uses the words "a man again". She wouldn't have said 'again' if he were in a different body, it makes no sense.Basically, all of the evidence points to Jon going back into his own body. This thought quote from Varamyr is just interesting if we assume that Jon is Rhaegar's true born legitimate son & heir:"Mance should have let me take the direwolf. There would be a second life worthy of a king. He could have done it, he did not doubt. The gift was strong in Snow, but the youth was untaught, still fighting his nature when he should have gloried in it."Varamyr seemed to think of Jon as a potential equal and Varamyr was the strongest of the wargs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 You don't seem to understand how this works. Saying something is "strongly foreshadowed" doesn't support your idea. We obviously aren't getting what you're saying. So, the typical thing to do would be to say "I think this because A, B, and C" (or link to it). Instead, it's "It's supported. Stop being a negative Nancy!!" which won't convince anyone. Jon Snow is really the son of Arthur Dayne and the Ghost of High Hall. If you want to know why I know this, read the books and you will see. If you don't believe me, it's only because you can't have an open mind about things and I might as well not even try to convince you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 This thought quote from Varamyr is just interesting if we assume that Jon is Rhaegar's true born legitimate son & heir: "Mance should have let me take the direwolf. There would be a second life worthy of a king. He could have done it, he did not doubt. The gift was strong in Snow, but the youth was untaught, still fighting his nature when he should have gloried in it." Varamyr seemed to think of Jon as a potential equal and Varamyr was the strongest of the wargs. He's definitely strong, but even if we presume to say that Jon is as strong as Varamyr (and there's really no way to compare them, tbh), that still doesn't make Jon strong enough to warg another human being. We have proof of that because Varamyr fails to do it. We see Bran do it. So, in order for it to even be feasible for Jon to warg another human, we would have to say that he is as strong as Bran...and I see no evidence of that so far. Bran and Bloodraven are clearly the strongest wargs we have encountered, and Varamary is nowhere near as strong as they are. I don't think Jon can be as strong as Varamyr without some sort of training...which he has not had. Or course, even if Jon were strong enough to warg a human, it means nothing in this scenario unless he wargs from his current human body into another human body. We know for a fact that wargs can no longer warg once they have jumped into their second life...so even if Jon had the ability to warg another human being, he couldn't do it according to the rules we have laid out in the text about warging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 He's definitely strong, but even if we presume to say that Jon is as strong as Varamyr (and there's really no way to compare them, tbh), that still doesn't make Jon strong enough to warg another human being. We have proof of that because Varamyr fails to do it. We see Bran do it. So, in order for it to even be feasible for Jon to warg another human, we would have to say that he is as strong as Bran...and I see no evidence of that so far. Bran and Bloodraven are clearly the strongest wargs we have encountered, and Varamary is nowhere near as strong as they are. I don't think Jon can be as strong as Varamyr without some sort of training...which he has not had.Or course, even if Jon were strong enough to warg a human, it means nothing in this scenario unless he wargs from his current human body into another human body. We know for a fact that wargs can no longer warg once they have jumped into their second life...so even if Jon had the ability to warg another human being, he couldn't do it according to the rules we have laid out in the text about warging. Or Jon could warg someone like Hodor who has already been broken-in... Jon will be free to travel between any host body he chooses after his body is returned to like... In other words, he'll be back into his first life... Unfortunitely, for Jon, his own body will not be an option, as it will be on the other side of the wall... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Or Jon could warg someone like Hodor who has already been broken-in... WHERE IS THE F***ING PROOF!!! :bang: :bang: :bang: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honeyed chicken Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 He's definitely strong, but even if we presume to say that Jon is as strong as Varamyr (and there's really no way to compare them, tbh), that still doesn't make Jon strong enough to warg another human being. We have proof of that because Varamyr fails to do it. We see Bran do it. So, in order for it to even be feasible for Jon to warg another human, we would have to say that he is as strong as Bran...and I see no evidence of that so far. Bran and Bloodraven are clearly the strongest wargs we have encountered, and Varamary is nowhere near as strong as they are. I don't think Jon can be as strong as Varamyr without some sort of training...which he has not had.Or course, even if Jon were strong enough to warg a human, it means nothing in this scenario unless he wargs from his current human body into another human body. We know for a fact that wargs can no longer warg once they have jumped into their second life...so even if Jon had the ability to warg another human being, he couldn't do it according to the rules we have laid out in the text about warging. Right, there's no evidence aside from Varamyr's appraisal. I wouldn't judge Varamyr's strength by his failure to warg Thistle - he was almost dead when that happened.The other factor with Jon & Hodor, is that Hodor has been warged. He knows what it feels like and he didn't fight it with Bran, although it scared him. More to the point, as a reader I'm not going to call bs on Martin if he has Jon warg Hodor. It seems consistent with what has happened already. At this point it would not "feel wrong" to me. etaJonSnow4President:The proof? You did read ADWD did you not? It's right there. Bran warging Hodor. Bran I, p.61, he thinks about the events at Queenscrown and about how violently Hodor had thrashed is head. But by the time they'd traveled north of the wall Bran would slip into Hodor regularly without much reaction from Hodor.Also, remember, Bran resisted the idea of warging at the start, and only with Jojen's encouragement did he allow himself to do it regularly. We don't yet know how it will go with Jon, but why would it shock you if Jon warged into Hodor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Right, there's no evidence aside from Varamyr's appraisal. I wouldn't judge Varamyr's strength by his failure to warg Thistle - he was almost dead when that happened. The other factor with Jon & Hodor, is that Hodor has been warged. He knows what it feels like and he didn't fight it with Bran, although it scared him. More to the point, as a reader I'm not going to call bs on Martin if he has Jon warg Hodor. It seems consistent with what has happened already. At this point it would not "feel wrong" to me. It wouldn't necessarily feel wrong if that happens (I'm assuming Martin gets us there in a reasonable way. Considering the distance between castle black and the cave of skulls, that seems ridiculous at present), but as of now, there is no support that it will happen. At least with the return to his body, there are multiple instances of resurrection, someone who should have this power there, and potentially a lack of need for it anyway if his body doesn't actually die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Right, there's no evidence aside from Varamyr's appraisal. I wouldn't judge Varamyr's strength by his failure to warg Thistle - he was almost dead when that happened. The other factor with Jon & Hodor, is that Hodor has been warged. He knows what it feels like and he didn't fight it with Bran, although it scared him. More to the point, as a reader I'm not going to call bs on Martin if he has Jon warg Hodor. It seems consistent with what has happened already. At this point it would not "feel wrong" to me. As a reader, I would call bs on it. Hodor also has a special bond with Bran- we know that he suffers Bran to warg him, but really hates it. That doesn't mean he would let just anyone, even Jon, warg him. That's also assuming that Jon were to even find Hodor (even as Ghost) when he doesn't know that Bran or anyone from his company is even alive. Of course, I find the notion utterly absurd in more way than one, and it's this: there's no point to it. What would Jon/Hodor accomplish? He couldn't warg anything else, he would no longer be Stark/Targaryan and none of that would come into play. He wouldn't be recognizable as Jon by anyone except for wargs, and no one is going to listen to Hodor. It's absolutely makes no sense as a solution. Also, without Hodor, Bran no longer 'body' in which to warg. So to me, it's a confused and nonsensical jumble of ridiculousness that serves no purpose to the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Addicted to Snow;Because it takes skill, balance and agility rather than brute strength. Even Jaime says as much.If it was a melee it would be a different story, she would be dead, and there would be no story.(See Lady Lance from tWoW~ a nod to Lyanna) . That's great, but a 14 year old girl could not use the same length lances as grown men & she would be knocked off her horse before she even got within the range of her lance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 WHERE IS THE F***ING PROOF!!! :bang: :bang: :bang: This may be shocking, but I cannot prove something that has yet to happen... Where is your proof that Jon will return to his own body??? You people are DENSE... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 WHERE IS THE F***ING PROOF!!! :bang: :bang: :bang: Alright, after a lot of digging, here's what I'm pulling up from thread 106: ME: The books themselves state that it is 'impossible' to body jump once you have left your own body. If Jon has a second life with Ghost, that's where he's stuck. It would take a massive act of magic for Jon to be able to come back to his body (that's assuming he even dies in the first place). ADTS: There is a 2007 Not-A-Blog post titled "Back to my First Life"... Which is probably what will happen to Jon when he's in Ghost North of the Wall & His Body is revived in a Khal Drogo like way by Mel... Jon will be back in his first life, but unable to access his original body... Okay, so, now, let's look at what this particular 'blog post' from GRRM says: Even Second Lives must come to an end, however, so now I am back to my original life. So, if I'm reading this correctly, ADTS submits a blog post as evidence for Jon not going back to his original life...even though the blog post clearly states that Martin WILL go back to his original life. So, even if this were evidence (and I don't believe for a moment that it is), I don't know how this could possibly support the idea that Jon won't go back to his original body when the entire blogpost is about just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 It's absolutely makes no sense as a solution. It's not a solution... Jon is not solving anything... He is going to be the bad-guy... I'm not sure that it is even possible for you to understand this... You have preconceived notions stipulating what GRRM will or will not write... Let me know how that goes for you when the next book comes out!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I don't understand how readers can believe that a 14 year old girl can possibly be the Kotlt? The Idea that a 14 year old girl could have the strength to weld the same length lance that full grown knights were jousting with is preposterous... If GRRM truly intends that Lyanna is the Kotlt, then it is his most significant oversight yet... Alia said it best. It's not about brute strength. It's clearly Lyanna. I've said it all before... it's pointless arguing with people who already have their minds made up... At least I'll be on record as being right when TWOW comes out... That's not at all presumptions of you.... That's great, but a 14 year old girl could not use the same length lances as grown men & she would be knocked off her horse before she even got within the range of her lance... Apparently not. It's not a solution... Jon is not solving anything... He is going to be the bad-guy... I'm not sure that it is even possible for you to understand this... You have preconceived notions stipulating what GRRM will or will not write... Let me know how that goes for you when the next book comes out!!! Pot. Kettle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 snip BearQueen87... I'm not sure you understand the physics behind Jousting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 BearQueen87... I'm not sure you understand the physics behind Jousting... Of course I don't. But I don't think that prevents Lyanna from being the KOTLT because I'm not sure GRRM cares. It might be a physics mistake for GRRM but it's clearly Lyanna. Who do you think it is, if not Lyanna? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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