Theon's dream proof Benjen still lives ?

[Lord Reaper oOo]

Why do people think Benjen is Daario?

I don't follow.

[House Obama]

Wow, how could I not see that! You're the man.

+100

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

I agree with the assement

I think most of us agree with this assessment.

[the marsh king]

Interesting the crypts tell Jon he is no Stark. Not even by way of Lyanna? Weird.

 

Hey good point but if R+L=J  then this would either make him a Targaryen if they were married, or a Sand ? if he was a Bastard conceived in Dorne.

 

Hey guys not been on the forum since October missed a few posts (: 

[LordStoneheart]

No, not at all.

 

Theon would have grown up with the knowledge that Benjen is alive and at the Wall and that Lyanna died young. And throughout Clash, Theon has no reason to think that Benjen is in any kind of peril.

[the marsh king]

No, not at all.

 

Theon would have grown up with the knowledge that Benjen is alive and at the Wall and that Lyanna died young. And throughout Clash, Theon has no reason to think that Benjen is in any kind of peril.

 He probably knew Mance was marching towards the wall so that at least puts Benjen in peril slightly 

 

I am sure there is other things in the dream as well that Theon didn't know like the way Robert died or the way Robb would die

 

I thought the dream was not of what Theon knew but what the gods where trying to show him.

[bemused]

No, not at all.

 

Theon would have grown up with the knowledge that Benjen is alive and at the Wall and that Lyanna died young. And throughout Clash, Theon has no reason to think that Benjen is in any kind of peril.

 

Yes, he has reason... In AGoT, when Yoren stops at WF on his way to King's landing, he brings word that Benjen is missing and very probably dead. Theon is present and seems to be one of those more willing to believe it.

 

Yoren wiped his fingers on his vest. “There’s hard news, m’lords, and a cruel way to pay you for your meat and mead, but the man as asks the question must bear the answer. Stark’s gone.”

One of the other men said, “The Old Bear sent him out to look for Waymar Royce, and he’s late returning, my lord.”

“Too long,” Yoren said. “Most like he’s dead.”

“My uncle is not dead,” Robb Stark said loudly, anger in his tones.....

 

.... Old sour-smelling Yoren looked up at Robb, unimpressed. “Whatever you say, m’lord,” he said. He sucked at a piece of meat between his teeth.

The youngest of the black brothers shifted uncomfortably in his seat. “There’s not a man on the Wall knows the haunted forest better than Benjen Stark. He’ll find his way back.”

“Well,” said Yoren, “maybe he will and maybe he won’t. Good men have gone into those woods before, and never come out.”

All Bran could think of was Old Nan’s story of the Others and the last hero,... ... “The children will help him,” he blurted, “the children of the forest!”

Theon Greyjoy sniggered, and Maester Luwin said, “Bran, the children of the forest have been dead and gone for thousands of years. All that is left of them are the faces in the trees.”

“Down here, might be that’s true, Maester,” Yoren said, “but up past the Wall, who’s to say? Up there, a man can’t always tell what’s alive and what’s dead.”

 

By the time we come to Theon's dream, Benjen had been missing for roughly 2 years and everyone assumes he's dead , including Theon. And when you look at the dream carefully, everyone in it is truly dead .. including Robb and Grey Wind who walk in at the end. Theon (and for that matter the north generally) had not heard about the RW yet..  Everyone in the dream was connected to Winterfell.. they are the dead of WF, and Theon even senses the long dead lords and Kings of Winter are present... But Benjen is absent, because he's not dead. (He's definitely not Coldhands)

 

In hindsight, Yoren's dinner with Robb and Bran may hold a lot of foreshadowing. We now know maester Luwin was wrong about the Cotf and Yoren was right to think they might still live (along with giants, etc.)..and I think Bran was right about the children helping Benjen. (Why wouldn't they? They helped Bran ... and Sam , in order that he might help Jon.)..  I think Yoren was wrong about Benjen ..his comment about it being hard to tell whats alive and whats dead, beyond the wall..seems to refer to the wights and seems designed to make us wonder about Benjen/Coldhands later (but now we know that was meant to mislead.) And I think the youngest black brother was right when he said, He’ll find his way back.

 

This conversation is taking place in Winterfell..

 

Based on this and many,many other clues,I think Benjen has "found his way back" to WF (with the help of the CoTF and Bloodraven) and is now the Hooded Man in WF. He's there because "There must always be a Stark in WF" and "Starks must rally the north" ... which he has been doing, off-page. (This helps to account for many instances of odd behaviour on the part of Northmen.)

[LordStoneheart]

 

snip

 

 

Whoops, my mistake.

 

As for the rest, I still don't think that news would really convince Theon of Benjen's death, so he'd have no way of visualizing this. With Lyanna, he would have an idea of how she died (which would account for the blood). Same with Robert, whose death would be big news all over Westeros, and the other Starks he sees.

 

I also don't think Benjen will show up at Winterfell. There is too much emphasis on him being lost beyond the Wall, but that's a different topic.

 

 

 

 

I thought the dream was not of what Theon knew but what the gods where trying to show him.

 

I doubt it. I see this only as a Theon-only dream, brought on by his guilt.

[TheReal_Rebel]

Excellent catch, OP!

Where has Benjen been all this time? Have you seen Sense 8 ? ;-)

Well, I'm hoping he's the Hooded Man at Winterfell.

1) ...or he's being held by the WW's for some Blood Magic to bring down the Wall, as a descendent of Brandon the Builder, and he has to be alive for it to work.

2) He escaped the WWs and is being sheltered by some unknown group of Wildings and they cannot safely leave where they are yet.

3) He escaped the WWs only to be very hurt or raving mad, and found by some Lord or Bannerman then thrown in a dungeon.

4) Was taken across the Bay of Seals and maybe further by some other unexpected rescuers or Slaver's and he has been trying to get back ever since.

[the marsh king]

Excellent catch, OP!

Where has Benjen been all this time? Have you seen Sense 8 ? ;-)

Well, I'm hoping he's the Hooded Man at Winterfell.

1) ...or he's being held by the WW's for some Blood Magic to bring down the Wall, as a descendent of Brandon the Builder, and he has to be alive for it to work.

2) He escaped the WWs and is being sheltered by some unknown group of Wildings and they cannot safely leave where they are yet.

3) He escaped the WWs only to be very hurt or raving mad, and found by some Lord or Bannerman then thrown in a dungeon.

4) Was taken across the Bay of Seals and maybe further by some other unexpected rescuers or Slaver's and he has been trying to get back ever since.

 

Thanks   :cheers:

 

1) I like the idea that the WW have Benjen and could be planning to use him as some sort of sacrifice to bring down the wall because of his Stark blood, 

 

I also have a somewhat crackpot theory involving Stark blood, that Benjen is Coldhands and that he is just a normal wight, killed and brought back by the others,   but the power in the Starks blood stop them being a slave to the WW.

[TheReal_Rebel]

Thanks   :cheers:
 
1) I like the idea that the WW have Benjen and could be planning to use him as some sort of sacrifice to bring down the wall because of his Stark blood, 
 
I also have a somewhat crackpot theory involving Stark blood, that Benjen is Coldhands and that he is just a normal wight, killed and brought back by the others,   but the power in the Starks blood stop them being a slave to the WW.

I had always assumed that ColdHands was brought back by his fellow Black Brother Blood Raven. For we know he was already a sorcerer before he was a GreenSeer.

[SevasTra82]

 

Thanks   :cheers:

 

1) I like the idea that the WW have Benjen and could be planning to use him as some sort of sacrifice to bring down the wall because of his Stark blood, 

 

I also have a somewhat crackpot theory involving Stark blood, that Benjen is Coldhands and that he is just a normal wight, killed and brought back by the others,   but the power in the Starks blood stop them being a slave to the WW.

 

GRRM has already confirmed that Coldhands is *not* Benjen.

 

Somehow, someway, I expect GRRM to make The Others seem sympathetic (like he does with everyone) and almost get us rooting for them.  They are connected to the Starks somehow...so for all we know Benjen could be with them.  *shrugs*

[Lord Buckethead]

Never thought of that! Woa, I like that... we do know that Howland is a firm Stark loyalist! 

 

But wouldn't that be exactly like desertion? Punishable by death?  Unless he was ordered to by Joer Mormont of course.

[the marsh king]

 

GRRM has already confirmed that Coldhands is *not* Benjen.

 

Somehow, someway, I expect GRRM to make The Others seem sympathetic (like he does with everyone) and almost get us rooting for them.  They are connected to the Starks somehow...so for all we know Benjen could be with them.  *shrugs*

Hey sorry i have not been on the forums for a while, i must have missed this, could you provide a link where GRRM says  Coldhands isn't Benjen ?   is it 100 % confirmed ?

 

I definitely agree with you that GRRM will make the Others seem sympathetic and get you to root for them, I almost root for them now, there is only a few characters i still like left in Westeros and most of them are in the North , and if they end up dying then i wouldn't mind the The Others winning and Westeros becoming a dead frozen wasteland. 

[matchesmcfly]

i used to think so, but then you have mormont's raven (bloodraven) saying he's dead. I think it's quite likely he's going to return as whitewalker.

[the marsh king]

i used to think so, but then you have mormont's raven (bloodraven) saying he's dead. I think it's quite likely he's going to return as whitewalker.

But if Benjen is Coldhands then technically he is dead

[Voice]

But if Benjen is Coldhands then technically he is dead

GRRM wrote to his editor that Coldhands is not Benjen

[bemused]

 

Whoops, my mistake.

 

As for the rest, I still don't think that news would really convince Theon of Benjen's death, so he'd have no way of visualizing this. With Lyanna, he would have an idea of how she died (which would account for the blood). Same with Robert, whose death would be big news all over Westeros, and the other Starks he sees.

 

I also don't think Benjen will show up at Winterfell. There is too much emphasis on him being lost beyond the Wall, but that's a different topic.

 

 

 

I doubt it. I see this only as a Theon-only dream, brought on by his guilt.

 

Perhaps it wouldn't totally convince him at the time, still, in the opinion of most experienced men (like Yoren) Benjen probably is dead... and two years later, when Benjen has still not been heard from, that would be the natural conclusion for the vast majority of people.

 

But the dream isn't about Benjen. It's Theon's dream of the dead.. all those he connects with WF in some way.. whether he knew them in life or not. Some he already knew were dead, some he didn't.

 

He would certainly have no idea of how Lyanna died, considering Ned's secrecy on the matter .. but he recognises her from her statue in the crypts , and because she's grouped with Brandon and Rickard

 

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind.

 

It's a true dream..all those people are dead.. He sees some he doesn't know are dead but correctly would assume are dead (Ned's people from KL).. but Harwin isn't among the dead, or Hal Mollen, either,e.g...He doesn't yet know about Robb.. when Robb enters the dream, Theon wakes screaming..

 

Coming when it does, in ACoK, that Benjen is not there is a sign to the readers that he's still alive.(Many of us were guessing he was dead, at that point.)

 

You say.. There is too much emphasis on him being lost beyond the Wall .. That's my point. There's too much emphasis.. deliberately misleading us.

 

i used to think so, but then you have mormont's raven (bloodraven) saying he's dead. I think it's quite likely he's going to return as whitewalker.

 

 Yes, but Bloodraven and the CotF don't want Jon to know that Bran and Rickon are alive yet.. both Coldhands and Bran make Sam promise not to tell Jon. They need Bran to be with Booldraven and need Jon to be at the Wall. It's better for everyone if Jon continues to think they're dead for a while.

 

Mormont's raven says "Dead,dead,dead," about Benjen .. but if  Benjen has been sent on a mission by BR/CotF, it's better for everyone that the NW thinks of Benjen as dead - for the moment. The raven (BR) is misleading Mormont and Jon.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

But if Benjen is Coldhands then technically he is dead

Coldhands died long ago, that was said by a near immortal being, Benjen only died ~2 years ago.

[Craster'sFavouriteSon]

How funny would it be if Martin simply forgot about Benjen and he has nothing in store for him?