The Daynes

[dragon wolf]

Nymeria's people were the Rhoynar, and we know what they look like.

Tyrion told us of the three types of Dornishmen, Salty, Sandy, and Stony, the first having the most Rhoynish blood, and the last having the least.

Oberyn Martell, with is raven black hair and dark eyes was a good example of a Salty Dornishman, and the Orphans of the Greenblood are even purer in their Rhoynish heritage. The Daynes are most likely Stony Dornishmen, since they live in the western mountains and have fair hair.

Thanks, I should have remembered that! Mors, the founder of the Martells, was obviously not Rhoynar, was he an Andal? Are the Dornes a hybrid of the Rhoynar and the Mors people (Andals?). It is interesting that there are no other groups in Westeros with Violet eyes, except the Daynes. You would think the Daynes likely being Stony Dornish would resemble more closely to the other Westerosi (not Dornes). Yet everyone connects them to the Targaryens.

[Jon Targaryen]

Thanks, I should have remembered that! Mors, the founder of the Martells, was obviously not Rhoynar, was he an Andal? Are the Dornes a hybrid of the Rhoynar and the Mors people (Andals?). It is interesting that there are no other groups in Westeros with Violet eyes, except the Daynes. You would think the Daynes likely being Stony Dornish would resemble more closely to the other Westerosi (not Dornes). Yet everyone connects them to the Targaryens.

Mors Martell was probably not the founder of the Martells. They were probably in existence as petty kings in Dorne when Nymeria landed, threw her support behind the Martells, and catapulted them to rule over all Dorne.

Martells were probably Andal yes, just considering most houses south of the Neck are Andal.

[Ran]

It is interesting that there are no other groups in Westeros with Violet eyes, except the Daynes.

We don't know that to be true. We've hardly seen every noble house and gotten descriptions of whatever typical physical features they may have.

All that said, while I expect the Daynes are chiefly of First Man and Andal stock, I am personally suspicious that their hair and violet eyes may be a holdover from what one might call proto-Valyrian stock (i.e. Azor Ahai). Just a theory, however.

[dragon wolf]

So the original Rhoynar could be described as swarthy skinned, dark of hair and eye?

[Ran]

Yes, that seems to be correct.

[jurble]

you know, modern genetic studies of england show little genetic contribution from N. Europe/Germany, see the Anglo-Saxons came in large numbers for the era, around 200k people, but given a base population of 5 million or so, they were just absorbed genetically pretty much. I really can't see how Andals and Rhoynar coming to Westeros would be different, they might have come in large numbers, but over thousands of years, they have just been absorbed away genetically. But then again, noble houses aren't known even irl for marrying exogenetically, all them modern royalty are cousins in europe.

[hnv]

you know, modern genetic studies of england show little genetic contribution from N. Europe/Germany, see the Anglo-Saxons came in large numbers for the era, around 200k people, but given a base population of 5 million or so, they were just absorbed genetically pretty much. I really can't see how Andals and Rhoynar coming to Westeros would be different, they might have come in large numbers, but over thousands of years, they have just been absorbed away genetically. But then again, noble houses aren't known even irl for marrying exogenetically, all them modern royalty are cousins in europe.

A/it depends on the region

the islands north of scotland and scotish highlands have a fair amount of norwiegen genetic traces to them

as is the north west and the north east of england

it depends on how remote the area is and the population migration from it.

B/ martin already said the genetics in westros are magical in nature

C/ as you said noble houses tend to marry one another (like most of the royal houses in europe are rlated and hail from germany)...and pre targ they probably married in-kingdom too, arryns married royces,and starks married within the noble house of the north and starks blood relatives...so the blood couldn't have realy thinned down

genetic thining could have happend with the smallfolk who came with the nobles but to highblooded...the targ only married in family or with valeryons...or in hard situation they would travel to lys to find other valyrian blood

and I doubt much of the andal nobility breed with the first men nobillity

D/ I assume the daynes do have some valyrian blood in them...considering the fact they are one of 3 houses mentioned to have violet eyes and golden hair (with targ and veleryons both are known to originate from the freehold)

[3idcrow]

you know, modern genetic studies of england show little genetic contribution from N. Europe/Germany, see the Anglo-Saxons came in large numbers for the era, around 200k people, but given a base population of 5 million or so, they were just absorbed genetically pretty much. I really can't see how Andals and Rhoynar coming to Westeros would be different, they might have come in large numbers, but over thousands of years, they have just been absorbed away genetically. But then again, noble houses aren't known even irl for marrying exogenetically, all them modern royalty are cousins in europe.

There’s no consensus on population replacement in England. The results of the most referenced studies vary from very dramatic (50-100%) replacement of Welsh/British genetic signatures by Saxon traits (Weale, M.E., Weiss, D.A., Jager, R.F., Bradman, N., and Thomas, M. (2002). Y chromosome evidence for Anglo-Saxon mass migraphic distances. Haplotype 12 13 11 16 25 11 (hg gration. Mol. Biol. Evol. 19, 1008–1021.) to more complicated replacement patterns including Norwegian influence as the result for Danish invasion (http://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/capelli-CB-03.pdf)

But then again, SOIAF world has its own genetic rules, kind of like "the seed is strong" type of evidence.

[MountainThatRides]

Studies of British genetics lend credence to theory that the Saxons (and to a lesser extent, the Angles, Jutes and Frisians) invaded with a force of primarily males. The warrior elite of their culture. It's reasonable to believe that the Anglo-Saxons, after defeating the native Britons and forcing them into the north and what is modern-day Wales, settled and bred with British women. Of course, British blood is very mingled as it is, with Celtic, Roman, German, Scandinavian and French invaders coming and settling at different points throughout history. When the Roman legions came, they didn't bring their wives with them, for instance; they took wives from the native population, and probably left them there when they had to leave for another province. Like the story of Macsen Wledig.

In Westeros "blood" and ancestry are held in high regard, much as they were in medieval Europe; however, nothing in the books or from Martin himself has led us to believe that the notion of pure blood is as fictitious in Westeros as it is in real life. On the contrary, it might be far more "real" in the series. Like in real life, certain physical traits are associated with ethnicity; for example, there's a very high chance of being born red-haired for Irish and Scottish, with lesser chance for Scandinavians and a very small chance for most other groups. In Westeros, you have the Targaryens (and perhaps other Valyrians) being fair with violet eyes; the Rhoynar are dark and swarthy; the Andals are fair, or at least fair in comparison to the First Men. Though Lann the Clever winkled Castlery Rock from the Casterlys, the true foundation of House Lannister is Andal. Since Nymeria came with her people (not just males, like the Anglo-Saxons might have brought), then the mixture would be far more pronounced since it's both the X and Y chromosomes; thus salty Dornishmen are entirely Rhoynish, with stony Dornishmen being the least, due to their prevalence of Andal blood.

[Emilydayne]

o...What if Edric Dayne is actually Jon snow's brother? It is said that they were milk brothers because Dayne's mother didn’t have milk. If Rheagar and Lyanna were both Jon and Edric's parents then this would make sense only there are not "milk brothers" but actual siblings. Edric Dayne could easily be older than he says. It’s pretty obvious why the boys would have been separated. Also, keep in mind that Dayne is also called Ned! Another reason why I really love this theory is because, assuming he is Rheagars and Lyanna son, he would fit the role of "the dragon has three heads" prophecy. Not all Targs are "dragons" (consider bloodraven... who eventually, like Jon, became lord commander of the nights watch. Edric Dayne, along with Aegon and Dani fits that role of dragon with three heads. All this would make Dayne perfect as Azor Ahai (the prince that was promised) with Dawn as his sword! Rheagar saw his son as the fulfillment of the prophecy. Rheagar thought that Aegon was the prince that was promised but if Dayne were his son than the role would suit him perfectly! Think about this... Dawn literally means- the coming of light. So too is it know that Dawn is a white blade and Ned's own memory of the tower of joy describes Dawn as glowing in battle. Reed, who survived the battle at the tower, is totally loyal to the Starks (especially Ned and Lyanna) after the tourney many years prior to the events at the tower of joy. Reed would have known about Lyanna and Rheagars boys but would never tell. Also Ashara Dayne would have knowledge of the boys...her keeping Edric and Ned taking Jon. No one would have cause to suspect. I absolutely think that Ned and Ashara were in love! But I am not convinced totally that she and Ned had a stillborn daughter. I am convinced that Ashara faked her death. Remember that the best lies hold truths! However the death of a child and loss of Ned would explain why she would leave Westeros (and Edric) and fake her death so no questions would ever be asked and Edric and Jon would both be safe. If she fled with Edric then people would start asking questions I have toyed with the idea that septa Lemore could be Ashara. Ashara was close to princess Eilia and it would make sense for her to want to be close to Aegon--with Edric, Jon, Ned and possibly her own child lost to her then it would be totally conceivable! If Ashara were the septa then the stretch marks would answer my question about the possible stillborn. But... I have major doubts about Ashara= septa Lemore because I think if she was Tyrion would know for sure. Tyrion does think that the septa has beauty but I feel like Ashara's beauty would be stunning to him and he would definitely pick up on her "haunting" purple eyes.

Hell at this point anything seems possible so I would like to point out that Jon Snow could very well be Ashara and Ned's son! If that were true then the story could have happened more like this-- When Ned came to starfall with Lyanna and Rheagars baby (Edric) Ashara had already given birth to Jon Snow (Jon is said to be older than Edric). Ned would then have to take Jon to Winterfell and away from his mother to keep Edric safe! If Ned had left Jon with Ashara then people might be more curious about Edric. It would obviously be very hard for Ashara to deal with hence her disappearance or suicide. I like this theory for a few reasons.. It reminds me of what Jon did with Mance's little prince and Gilly's boy (a boy with "kings blood", who's mother is dead, taken in by another mother who then forced to give up her own new son to keep him (the boy with "kings blood, safe. The mother who are milk brothers! It would also mean that Jon and Ned's trueborn children are in fact siblings--Everything about the Stark children and their wolves suggests that Jon is a sibling of Ned’s trueborns.

Final thought and it’s a stretch… After reading the Dunk and Egg stories I got the impression that purple eyes were a giveaway for Targaryens and that made me think that perhaps Darkstar, aka Gerold Dayne, is Areys bastard and brother of Rheagar, Viserys and Dani and maybe that’s why he was so intent on killing Princess Mrycella- payback for Rheagar+ Elia’s children who were killed by Tywin Lannister. Targaryen bastards named as Daynes? Targaryen males are known for having multiple lovers. If the Targaryens coupled with Daynes for centuries it would keep the bloodlines pure. If all that is true, could Ahara possibly be a Targaryen bastard too? There is this quote from Jojen Reed to Bran, “I dreamed of a winged wolf…” If, Ashara + Ned= Jon he could be the “winged wolf.” However, if Rheagar + Lyanna= Jon then he is still the “winged wolf”. Personally, I like the Rheager + Lyanna = Edric (the prince who was promised) and Ashara + Ned= Jon (winged wolf) with Ashara as a bastard Targaryen. All this being said, I do believe that the Aegon twist is real and that Aegon will become the King of Westeros and Dani will be queen. Either way im convinced that Edric is Azor Ahai reborn.

[Emilydayne]

Ran, do you have solid evidence that Elizabeth Taylor wasn't Valyrian?

[Ser Lepus]

We don't know that to be true. We've hardly seen every noble house and gotten descriptions of whatever typical physical features they may have.

All that said, while I expect the Daynes are chiefly of First Man and Andal stock, I am personally suspicious that their hair and violet eyes may be a holdover from what one might call proto-Valyrian stock (i.e. Azor Ahai). Just a theory, however.

But how could they keep the valyrian looks after so many centuries if there aren't other valyrian families around to mate with, and they don't practice incest?

If a japanese family traveled to Norway and intermarried with norwegians for centuries or thousands of years, their descendants would indeed look nordic, not asian.

[Ran]

How do the Baratheons keep coming out black haired and blue eyed?

Why do the Velaryons retain Valyrian looks without pacticing incest? A handful of infusions of Targaryen blood over the centuries ought not to be enough.

There's a bit of a fantasy component to the genetics of the series, one has to admit. George has said as much, in fact.

[Maia]

How do the Baratheons keep coming out black haired and blue eyed?

Blue-eyed, I could see, particularly since their eyes are described as being indigo - the special shade of Valyrian blue, which, see below. But ubiquitious black hair are a mystery, particularly since it looks like they didn't manage to transmit this trait to the other Stormlands nobility.

Why do the Velaryons retain Valyrian looks without pacticing incest? A handful of infusions of Targaryen blood over the centuries ought not to be enough.

For the same reason that Targaryens largely retained their looks even when they didn't practice incest for a few generations? I.e., that unlike real-world human examples and Andal blondness and like certain white-furred animals, such as the Lippizzaners, Valyrian looks are actually dominant. In addition they could have been frequently taking Valyrian-blooded wives from the Free Cities, such as Lys.

Did we see any Celtigars, BTW? Kind of interesting that they are also of Valyrian derivation.

[Ran]

Right. Unlike the real world. Fantasy.

[sertravisredbeard]

I hope the office of Sword of the Morning is won by whoever gets 100 wins in Boggle at the family reunions.

[Ashara_Dayne]

@Emilydayne

Very interesting theory! Thank you for sharing.

I am thinking that Jon is indeed Lyanna's son and somehow I feel that the stillbirth (if it did happen, we so far have only Jojens story to Bran, right?) is not the reason for Ashara's suicide.

I am looking to read more about Howland Reed and I am crossing my fingers for his POV in TWOW. He will be the only one to uncover a lot of the tragic (hi)story of houses Stark and Dayne.

I think we haven't see Ashara (if she faked her death) or Howland with another name yet. Curious to see how this will unfold...

[lcd52]

o...What if Edric Dayne is actually Jon snow's brother? It is said that they were milk brothers because Dayne's mother didn’t have milk. If Rheagar and Lyanna were both Jon and Edric's parents then this would make sense only there are not "milk brothers" but actual siblings. Edric Dayne could easily be older than he says. It’s pretty obvious why the boys would have been separated. Also, keep in mind that Dayne is also called Ned! Another reason why I really love this theory is because, assuming he is Rheagars and Lyanna son, he would fit the role of "the dragon has three heads" prophecy. Not all Targs are "dragons" (consider bloodraven... who eventually, like Jon, became lord commander of the nights watch. Edric Dayne, along with Aegon and Dani fits that role of dragon with three heads. All this would make Dayne perfect as Azor Ahai (the prince that was promised) with Dawn as his sword! Rheagar saw his son as the fulfillment of the prophecy. Rheagar thought that Aegon was the prince that was promised but if Dayne were his son than the role would suit him perfectly! Think about this... Dawn literally means- the coming of light. So too is it know that Dawn is a white blade and Ned's own memory of the tower of joy describes Dawn as glowing in battle. Reed, who survived the battle at the tower, is totally loyal to the Starks (especially Ned and Lyanna) after the tourney many years prior to the events at the tower of joy. Reed would have known about Lyanna and Rheagars boys but would never tell. Also Ashara Dayne would have knowledge of the boys...her keeping Edric and Ned taking Jon. No one would have cause to suspect. I absolutely think that Ned and Ashara were in love! But I am not convinced totally that she and Ned had a stillborn daughter. I am convinced that Ashara faked her death. Remember that the best lies hold truths! However the death of a child and loss of Ned would explain why she would leave Westeros (and Edric) and fake her death so no questions would ever be asked and Edric and Jon would both be safe. If she fled with Edric then people would start asking questions I have toyed with the idea that septa Lemore could be Ashara. Ashara was close to princess Eilia and it would make sense for her to want to be close to Aegon--with Edric, Jon, Ned and possibly her own child lost to her then it would be totally conceivable! If Ashara were the septa then the stretch marks would answer my question about the possible stillborn. But... I have major doubts about Ashara= septa Lemore because I think if she was Tyrion would know for sure. Tyrion does think that the septa has beauty but I feel like Ashara's beauty would be stunning to him and he would definitely pick up on her "haunting" purple eyes.

Hell at this point anything seems possible so I would like to point out that Jon Snow could very well be Ashara and Ned's son! If that were true then the story could have happened more like this-- When Ned came to starfall with Lyanna and Rheagars baby (Edric) Ashara had already given birth to Jon Snow (Jon is said to be older than Edric). Ned would then have to take Jon to Winterfell and away from his mother to keep Edric safe! If Ned had left Jon with Ashara then people might be more curious about Edric. It would obviously be very hard for Ashara to deal with hence her disappearance or suicide. I like this theory for a few reasons.. It reminds me of what Jon did with Mance's little prince and Gilly's boy (a boy with "kings blood", who's mother is dead, taken in by another mother who then forced to give up her own new son to keep him (the boy with "kings blood, safe. The mother who are milk brothers! It would also mean that Jon and Ned's trueborn children are in fact siblings--Everything about the Stark children and their wolves suggests that Jon is a sibling of Ned’s trueborns.

Final thought and it’s a stretch… After reading the Dunk and Egg stories I got the impression that purple eyes were a giveaway for Targaryens and that made me think that perhaps Darkstar, aka Gerold Dayne, is Areys bastard and brother of Rheagar, Viserys and Dani and maybe that’s why he was so intent on killing Princess Mrycella- payback for Rheagar+ Elia’s children who were killed by Tywin Lannister. Targaryen bastards named as Daynes? Targaryen males are known for having multiple lovers. If the Targaryens coupled with Daynes for centuries it would keep the bloodlines pure. If all that is true, could Ahara possibly be a Targaryen bastard too? There is this quote from Jojen Reed to Bran, “I dreamed of a winged wolf…” If, Ashara + Ned= Jon he could be the “winged wolf.” However, if Rheagar + Lyanna= Jon then he is still the “winged wolf”. Personally, I like the Rheager + Lyanna = Edric (the prince who was promised) and Ashara + Ned= Jon (winged wolf) with Ashara as a bastard Targaryen. All this being said, I do believe that the Aegon twist is real and that Aegon will become the King of Westeros and Dani will be queen. Either way im convinced that Edric is Azor Ahai reborn.

GRRM enjoys being ambiguous - according to GRRM. After reading Selmy in "Dance," I found myself wondering if Ashara wasn't deflowered by the gallant brother (the Wild Wolf) who asked her to dance with his shy, younger brother. According to Lady Dunstin, Brandon wasn't shy about taking anything he wanted. In fact, maybe Eddard bonded so well with Robert because Robert was so much like Brandon.

[J. Stargaryen]

They don't. They have violet eyes like Elizabeth Taylor (who wasn't Valyrian), and their hair tends to ash blonde rather than the silver and gold of the Targaryens. GRRM was asked about this at the Event Horizon Chat a number of years ago, and he indicated that they were not descended from Valyrians.

Right, because it's the other way around. The Valyrians are descended from the Daynes; i.e., at least one Dayne - probably more - migrated to Essos and mated with the indigenous population. Or at least that's what I was thinking last night.

I haven't had time to research this much yet, so I'm not sure if it is already a theory*.

We don't know that to be true. We've hardly seen every noble house and gotten descriptions of whatever typical physical features they may have.

All that said, while I expect the Daynes are chiefly of First Man and Andal stock, I am personally suspicious that their hair and violet eyes may be a holdover from what one might call proto-Valyrian stock (i.e. Azor Ahai). Just a theory, however.

Is my hypothesis in line with your suspicions? If not, could you explain some of the differences?

*ETA: Apparently a theory just like this was posted only a few days ago: House Dayne as the ancestors of the Valyrians

[Emilydayne]

The Prophecy:

The Blackfyre pretender had a dream that a dragon would hatch at white walls. Egg turned out to be that dragon..... Targs are known for dreams such as that. Aagon believed that the Prince Who Was Promised would come from Aerys and his sister... I think he knew he had a role to play in fulfilling the prophecy. Then he had a dream that a dragon would hatch at Summerhall....Rhaegar was born that night. I think Rhaegar knew/dreamed that Aagon died to bring a dragon into the world. Rhaegar always had a special/strange connection with Summerhall. I think he knew he had a role to play in the prophecy too. When he dreamed that he would need to be a warrior to fulfill the prophecy he went to the yard the next day. So, it is my belief, that Rhaegar dreamed that Jon would be The Prince Who Was Promised and that's why he gave Lyanna the rose, took Lyanna, started a war, left 3 kings guards (Arthur Dayne) at the tower to protect Jon and Lyanna, and then he died on the Trident.

And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light. “No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”

I think Rhaegar may have shared some of his dreams with Dayne and Dayne could have been involved. Dawn does make a good case for Lightbringer!

I think there are many things about house Dayne that we do not know. Ashara for example! Darkstar? Edric Dayne? We know very little about the Dayne family tree. But I do have this crazy idea that Shiera Seastar (one of the Great Bastards) is involved. The Blackfyre's story is def not over yet. In the end, being a Bastard or not will prove to be insignificant!