Heresy 139 [World of Ice and Fire Spoilers]

[wolfmaid7]

I just got my book and currently i'm with red ink pen marking things Heretical.Very very Interesting so far.

[Black Crow]

well well well

it appears that in Asshai-by-the-shadow you can sail up the black ash river into the heart of darkness?????

Haven't ventured that far yet, but its certainly the strongest possible confirmation outside of an SSM that we're right.

[Black Crow]

Speaking of Blackwoods... I find it interesting that, other than one stray Royce and a couple of Rogers, Blackwood is the only House south of the Neck to appear on the Stark family tree. No dates on those charts, but looks like Melantha and Betha could well be in the same Blackwood generation. So... Mad Aerys and Lord Rickard, 2nd cousins on the Blackwood tree?

I need to go through it again but I'm pretty sure the Blackwood connection is also mentioned in text.

[cgf]

Reading the section about Naath it's hard not to see some parallels with the CotF in westeros, from their appearance and reportedly peaceful nature, to their fleeing into the hills and forests to escape human invaders/slavers, and maybe even their tools of protection. What strikes me as interesting is the description of the butterfly fever, their primary defense, which is delivered by the butterflies which they revere "as messengers of the Lord, charged with the protection of his people." Which evokes the skinchanging and Ravens of westeros. Anyway here's the symptoms that intrigue me:

"Fever is the first sign of this plague, followed by painful spasms that make it seem as if victims are dancing wildly and uncontrollably. In the last stage, the afflicted sweat blood, and their flesh sloughs from their bones."

The second part, "dancing wildly and uncontrollably" makes me think back to the scene we saw of our expert-skinchanger friend taking over another human, as well as the way MMD danced with the shadows in Drogo's tent. And "the flesh sloughs from their bones" making me think to some of the wights we've been presented with. Is this eastern parallel telling us about the traditional weapons of the CotF?

Weapons the first men would've without a doubt tried to conquer for themselves as soon as someone 'got their body back' after a child died/moved-to-a-different-host/got-bored-and-wanted-to-go-jerkoff-with-its-own-body/etc. Leading these humans to try to perform their own blood magic to gain control of the forces they had felt wielded(weldt seems like it should be the word even though that red marking would suggest otherwise) against them?

[The Dragon has three heads]

I got my book last week as I'm in aus I don't know how that's possible but there you have it.

The more we see about the long night-an the mention of the Yi-ti warrior with a flaming sword as well as three huge fortresses on the very Far East(or very west depending on your POV) of their realm the more im inclined to think AA/LH/ptwp are all the same person who different cultures in The wake of the long night thank for freeing them.

[King of Winters]

I've said this quite a few times and think its worth saying again the LN maybe an aspect of natural magic so to the Doom.Meaning i don't think someone cast a spell and then the LN or the Doom happened the Doom and the LN could be "extinction events" that happen when the world goes through a shift. To draw on magical lore again Fire and ice in Teutonic magic are known as the primodial elements.Meaning they are the forces that either start or finish an age. What may have caused the Doom and the LN maybe running the end of another cycle. What magical creatures or sorcerers did during these events could be something all together.

I think that the seasons were normal up until a certain point, the LN, though the cycle sounds interesting. But I think something caused them to happen, since GRRM has said the problem is connected to magic, I think something has to happen in Valyria and TLoAW in order for the seasons' balance to return as normal.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Jeez almighty Snowy...maybe I should hire you to do some genealogy researching on my line (big gaps from the Civil War....my ancestors were Grey Coats). That is a very interesting find.

BTW...does anyone else's WoIaF smell? I picked mine up today at Barnes & Noble and have spent 4 hours worth of reading and I keep getting this odd smell on my hands and when I smell the pages. My wife will not let me near her. Perhaps I should become a Septon.

Septon Cooterian...it just doesn't seem to hold water!

:cool4: Ha. I'd be lying if I said I hadn't spent some time on family histories. Like you, I have Confederate soldiers in my tree. Union soldiers too, for that matter.

(My book doesn't smell funny, though. Just smells like a new book.)

I just got my book and currently i'm with red ink pen marking things Heretical.Very very Interesting so far.

Gasp. Red ink pen in a brand new book!? Quelle horreur. (Don't tell Eira!) :blink:

-----

Not sure how I'll ever actually read this thing through. I'm skipping around like it's a yearbook, and it's not on my kindle app - so I'll only be able to read it while home at night. Even so, I've found lots of interesting stuff already. One thing I see mentioned under the Lords of Winterfell heading (pg 141) is "the Pact of Ice and Fire made when the doomed prince Jacaerys Velaryon had flown to Winterfell upon his dragon." Supposedly part of the agreement was the marriage of a royal princess into House Stark, though it's noted that this never actually happened. Apparently the Pact of Ice and Fire was made during (or prior to the full-blown) Dance of the Dragons... but for the life of me I do not see it mentioned in that section of the book. Did I just overlook it? I'm sure it wasn't discussed in TPATQ or Rogue Prince... so, is it just a teaser?

[The Dragon has three heads]

Watch dragonless ambitions on you tube immediately.

That's all.

[wolfmaid7]

I think that the seasons were normal up until a certain point, the LN, though the cycle sounds interesting. But I think something caused them to happen, since GRRM has said the problem is connected to magic, I think something has to happen in Valyria and TLoAW in order for the seasons' balance to return as normal.

I agree that magic is involved,but i don't think that someone or faction "did" something. My speculation/theory about the GS powers and what they actually do was solidified even more by the first few pages and that particular Maester is correct.I find his rendition palatable because i find his questioning of information refreshing.Anyhoo,it seems more and more possible that what ever happened to the seasons, were as a result of an un/concious act of the Greenseers.

:cool4: Ha. I'd be lying if I said I hadn't spent some time on family histories. Like you, I have Confederate soldiers in my tree. Union soldiers too, for that matter.

(My book doesn't smell funny, though. Just smells like a new book.)

Gasp. Red ink pen in a brand new book!? Quelle horreur. (Don't tell Eira!) :blink:

I confess,i could not help myself :devil:

[Black Crow]

I got my book last week as I'm in aus I don't know how that's possible but there you have it.

The more we see about the long night-an the mention of the Yi-ti warrior with a flaming sword as well as three huge fortresses on the very Far East(or very west depending on your POV) of their realm the more im inclined to think AA/LH/ptwp are all the same person who different cultures in The wake of the long night thank for freeing them.

I'm inclined to the opposite view and reminded of this earlier remark by GRRM:

"There are several competing religions in this series now. Should we be wondering if some are more true than others? In a world with magic, is religion just magic with an extra layer of mythos?

"Well, the readers are certainly free to wonder about the validity of these religions, the truth of these religions, and the teachings of these religions. I'm a little leery of the word "true" — whether any of these religions are more true than others. I mean, look at the analogue of our real world. We have many religions too. Are some of them more true than others? I don't think any gods are likely to be showing up in Westeros, any more than they already do. We're not going to have one appearing, deus ex machina, to affect the outcomes of things, no matter how hard anyone prays. So the relation between the religions and the various magics that some people have here is something that the reader can try to puzzle out".

I think there's a problem in that ever since Mel tooled up there has been an unhealthy obsession with identifying and proclaiming the real Azor Ahai. I think that what GRRM is doing in the World book is demonstrating that the mythos of his world includes any number of heroes and we should be "a little leery of the word "true" . There may well in the end be a hero for Westeros, but not Azor Ahai.

[Black Crow]

Not sure how I'll ever actually read this thing through. I'm skipping around like it's a yearbook, and it's not on my kindle app - so I'll only be able to read it while home at night. Even so, I've found lots of interesting stuff already. One thing I see mentioned under the Lords of Winterfell heading (pg 141) is "the Pact of Ice and Fire made when the doomed prince Jacaerys Velaryon had flown to Winterfell upon his dragon." Supposedly part of the agreement was the marriage of a royal princess into House Stark, though it's noted that this never actually happened. Apparently the Pact of Ice and Fire was made during (or prior to the full-blown) Dance of the Dragons... but for the life of me I do not see it mentioned in that section of the book. Did I just overlook it? I'm sure it wasn't discussed in TPATQ or Rogue Prince... so, is it just a teaser?

The Pact of Ice and Fire has certainly aroused an unhealthy excitement in another place, but context is everything and in this case it appears to have been nothing more than a proposed marriage alliance between House Stark and House Targaryen at a time when the latter were in real trouble during the Dance of the Dragons. It saw Cregan Stark come to the aid of the Iron throne but afterwards when it was no longer needed...

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Haven't ventured that far yet, but its certainly the strongest possible confirmation outside of an SSM that we're right.

Not looking at the book right now, but while browsing through it last night and early this morning it occurred to me that there were several instances of phrasing that seemed to confirm or emphasize particular allusions elsewhere in the books. The "heart of darkness" near Asshai was one of them. I also noticed the appearance of the phrase "rare as hen's teeth," which is the more usual phrasing replaced by Tyrion's comment regarding men "rare as dragon's teeth."

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Also - thought the little reference about Gendel and Gorne settling a dispute between giants and COTF over a certain cave was rather funny, and possibly a bit telling. Apparently both the giants and the COTF suddenly disavowed interest in the cave after G+G discovered it was connected to subterranean tunnels below the Wall. That sounds like comedy there. I can just imagine the conversation...:

COTF: "This is our home. These giants are squatting on our land. G+G, would you come sort this out! Tell them to go away!"

Giants: "Our cave! Giants first! Squirrel people piss off!"

G+G: (Takes a look) "Well hey, what do you know? This tunnel extends below the Wall. Did you folks realize that?"

COTF: "What? OMG, we had no idea! We've never actually looked before. Amazing!"

G+G: "You do realize the Pact forbids you to cross south of the Wall, right?"

COTF: "Well, it's obviously not our tunnel. The giants were here first. We don't even want the cave. I mean, what would we do with a cave!?"

Giants: "Not giant tunnels. Squirrel hole. Giants no want."

G+G: Sweet...

[lokisnow]

So the book basically hints at what is in store for Dany.

Dany is returned to the crones of Vaes Dothrak. She goes into the water there and then emerges and unifies the Dothraki. With only Drogon she leads her horde on the Steel Road to the east (to go west you must go east). As we learn in the world book, the Steel Road begins at Vaes Dothrak.

Passing through the Steel Road Dany allies with the three Fortresses all of which are led by powerful women with a warrior woman tradition (reading everything from the preface to the Far East section to the end of the book is like a treatise on powerful women maintaining their power).

Exiting the mountains, she takes one of the roads that cross YiTi, which Martin adroitly notes are the best in the world and allow one to cross the continent incredibly quickly). Once she reaches the Five Fortresses (which are taller than the wall and guard against the farthest east, she turns to Asshai, in order to continue East she will have to pass beneath the shadow. The shadow being a river that passes between two cliffs so high that light only touches the water's surface for a moment at midday.

After that, well she's clearly going to reach the light by journeying into the heart of darkness. The world book has no further info beyond Asshai, but she may be able to sail to Castlery Rock or cross a land bridge to castlery rock where she'll be reunited with her other two dragons on the Trident (who have been taken by Tyrion and Victarion and have in the meantime returned to Westeros).

[Matthew.]

The Pact of Ice and Fire has certainly aroused an unhealthy excitement in another place, but context is everything and in this case it appears to have been nothing more than a proposed marriage alliance between House Stark and House Targaryen at a time when the latter were in real trouble during the Dance of the Dragons. It saw Cregan Stark come to the aid of the Iron throne but afterwards when it was no longer needed...

Strange that that is the Winterfell passage that would elicit excitement, when it reveals nothing in particular. I thought for sure that the Winterfell information that would really kick off some crazy Jon theories is:

The claim that, while the doomed prince was visiting, his dragon Vermax laid a clutch of eggs that now reside in the Winterfell crypts

[Frey family reunion]

So the book basically hints at what is in store for Dany.

Dany is returned to the crones of Vaes Dothrak. She goes into the water there and then emerges and unifies the Dothraki. With only Drogon she leads her horde on the Steel Road to the east (to go west you must go east). As we learn in the world book, the Steel Road begins at Vaes Dothrak.

Passing through the Steel Road Dany allies with the three Fortresses all of which are led by powerful women with a warrior woman tradition (reading everything from the preface to the Far East section to the end of the book is like a treatise on powerful women maintaining their power).

Exiting the mountains, she takes one of the roads that cross YiTi, which Martin adroitly notes are the best in the world and allow one to cross the continent incredibly quickly). Once she reaches the Five Fortresses (which are taller than the wall and guard against the farthest east, she turns to Asshai, in order to continue East she will have to pass beneath the shadow. The shadow being a river that passes between two cliffs so high that light only touches the water's surface for a moment at midday.

After that, well she's clearly going to reach the light by journeying into the heart of darkness. The world book has no further info beyond Asshai, but she may be able to sail to Castlery Rock or cross a land bridge to castlery rock where she'll be reunited with her other two dragons on the Trident (who have been taken by Tyrion and Victarion and have in the meantime returned to Westeros).

I think Martin has confirmed that she's not going to Asshai.

[cgf]

Am I making this up or was there a SSM stating we wouldn't actually be seeing Asshai firsthand in the series?

[Matthew.]

Am I making this up or was there a SSM stating we wouldn't actually be seeing Asshai firsthand in the series?

Nope, you're right. It was from a Q&A he did with a Spanish speaking fansite. IIRC, he said something along the lines of "if we see Asshai at all, it will only be in memories."

[lokisnow]

I think Martin has confirmed that she's not going to Asshai.

Iirc before affc came out r a split with adwd was made Martin was asked if Dany would go to asshai in the next book. The answer was no.

The answer about seeing it in memories probably has to do with how he was writing the melisandre chapters at the time and can also refer to just adwd

[Black Crow]

Nope, you're right. It was from a Q&A he did with a Spanish speaking fansite. IIRC, he said something along the lines of "if we see Asshai at all, it will only be in memories."

That's what I thought too but I've just checked http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/ :

Is there any chance we'll see Valyria?

Well.... there may be. Not a great chance, mind you. The question is, is it going to be a look at Valyria now, or Valyria in the past?

There was no mention of Asshai, though that's not to say he didn't rule it out in a different interview