TWOIAF Spoilers: Ice dragon

[Fae Boleyn]

I'd agree about the ice dragon tales not being much evidence, but then Yandel goes on to say how this particular myth being true could explain other things sailors have claimed to see, not just the "official" dragon sightings.

I mean it's still not proof, but I find it interesting that he goes into that, and an indication for ice dragons as a potentially true thing. That and it makes more sense to me, as I've said, for the second Dance to be part of the fight at the Wall than as another civil war with dragons, just logistically.

But, hey, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

[The Wolves]

Didn't Old Nan talk about Ice Dragons in her stories?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_be_dragons

It's kinda funny how there seem to be dragons on all the fringe's of the known world. Ice dragons in the north, dragons in the east in shadows of Asshai, dragons in the south with them Wyverns. All a good artsy medieval woiaf map needs now is a fabled seadragon in the west somewhere beyond lonely light. :D

You mean like Nagga?

[Masha]

When I read Ice Dragon story I though it takes place in sort of alternative time aka Dawn Age of Westeros. The girl mentions seasons getting longer and winters getting colder. Maybe Ice Dragons were the start of Long Seasons quirk in Westeros were both Winters and Summers last years if not decades.

I did notice that in the book, Fire Dragons come from North to raid. Not from South or East but North. Shouldn't that be in reverse?

[Dany's Golden Fleece]

I'd agree about the ice dragon tales not being much evidence, but then Yandel goes on to say how this particular myth being true could explain other things sailors have claimed to see, not just the "official" dragon sightings.

I mean it's still not proof, but I find it interesting that he goes into that, and an indication for ice dragons as a potentially true thing. That and it makes more sense to me, as I've said, for the second Dance to be part of the fight at the Wall than as another civil war with dragons, just logistically.

But, hey, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

Interesting that the Manderly girl dreamed that when the dragons danced people died.

We assumed that it was Dany vs (F)Aegon, but it could be Dany's dragons vs Ice Dragons. Interesting.

[Senatus]

I haven't read it, but apparently someone was raped in the original printing of The Ice Dragon.

Having just listened to it, I can't recall someone being raped. Relistening now. Though they do mention burned men, whose skin is black and burnt and falling off. Who had lost an arm, or a leg, or half of a face.

There are more lines like that, it doesn't really feel like a suitable bedtime story to me.

What strikes me most is that the seasons behave normally but are starting to change. The thaw starts later each year, effectively extending the winter.

Also, some interesting lines.

"The ice dragon painfully raised its head once more and made the only sound that Adarra had ever heard it make, a terrible thin cry full of melancholy, like the sound the north wind makes when it moves around the towers and battlements of the white castle that stands empty in the land of Always Winter".

The very start of the book:

"She always knew when they were due (snow, cold, ice dragon) because of her birthday. Adarra was a winter child, born during the worst freeze that anyone could remember. Even old Laura who lived on the next farm and remembered things that had happened before anyone else was born. People still talked about that freeze. Adarra often heard them. They talked about other things as well. They said it was the chill of that terrible freeze that had killed her mother, stealing in during her long night of labor past the great fire that Adarra’s father had built and creeping under the layers of blankets that covered the birthing bed."

Mentions of a great freeze and the Long Night reference.

Also, the general description of Adarra (pale skin, blue eyes, cold to the touch) reminds me of an Other. "The Winter had touched her, left its mark upon her and made her its own".

[SeanF]

Adarra's sister was raped by enemy soldiers in the Ice Dragon, and her uncle was burned alive. It's not really a childrens' story.

Both kingdoms have corps of dragon riders, which doesn't quite match the situation in the ASOIAF universe.

[Barrick Eddon]

Adarra's sister was raped by enemy soldiers in the Ice Dragon, and her uncle was burned alive. It's not really a childrens' story.

Both kingdoms have corps of dragon riders, which doesn't quite match the situation in the ASOIAF universe.

Well it's very possible that one of Dany's dragons could go to team fAegon , I don't no who will be a rider but it was clear in the dream that dornish girl had in Arianne's TWOW chapter

[SeanF]

Well it's very possible that one of Dany's dragons could go to team fAegon , I don't no who will be a rider but it was clear in the dream that dornish girl had in Arianne's TWOW chapter

I interpret her dream metaphorically. The dragons are Aegon, perhaps Arianne (who has Targaryen blood) and Dany. When (as I anticipate) they come into conflict, people will die.

[OberynBlackfyre]

Having just listened to it, I can't recall someone being raped. Relistening now. Though they do mention burned men, whose skin is black and burnt and falling off. Who had lost an arm, or a leg, or half of a face.

There are more lines like that, it doesn't really feel like a suitable bedtime story to me.

What strikes me most is that the seasons behave normally but are starting to change. The thaw starts later each year, effectively extending the winter.

Also, some interesting lines.

"The ice dragon painfully raised its head once more and made the only sound that Adarra had ever heard it make, a terrible thin cry full of melancholy, like the sound the north wind makes when it moves around the towers and battlements of the white castle that stands empty in the land of Always Winter".

The very start of the book:

"She always knew when they were due (snow, cold, ice dragon) because of her birthday. Adarra was a winter child, born during the worst freeze that anyone could remember. Even old Laura who lived on the next farm and remembered things that had happened before anyone else was born. People still talked about that freeze. Adarra often heard them. They talked about other things as well. They said it was the chill of that terrible freeze that had killed her mother, stealing in during her long night of labor past the great fire that Adarra’s father had built and creeping under the layers of blankets that covered the birthing bed."

Mentions of a great freeze and the Long Night reference.

Also, the general description of Adarra (pale skin, blue eyes, cold to the touch) reminds me of an Other. "The Winter had touched her, left its mark upon her and made her its own".

Adarra's sister was raped by enemy soldiers in the Ice Dragon, and her uncle was burned alive. It's not really a childrens' story.

Both kingdoms have corps of dragon riders, which doesn't quite match the situation in the ASOIAF universe.

We don't know exactly how the Dawn Age or that time actually went down though. In TWOIAF it says that Dragons USED TO BE found all around the world. Long before the Valyrians learned to use the dragons, it was said that people in Asshai knew the arts.

Maybe there was a great war in the North? A war of sorcerers over a very powerful magical source (the heart of winter?) And it would make sense that since one "pole" is the Shadow where Asshai is, they would maybe venture South from where they were, and then wind up far North in Westeros, or maybe just venture to Westeros and the Lands of Always Winter just to find the other powerful source. And if in the fighting there was a Doom of Ice and then boom. The Others were born.

[joluoto2]

The more I think about The Ice Dragon, the more I think it's set in the far future of Westeros. Thus the fire dragons in the stry might be descendants of Dany's dragons.

[Hrafntýr]

It's been a while since I read The Ice Dragon, but if I remember correctly in that reality you don't need special blood to be a dragonrider, right? Like, kids dream of growing up to be a dragonrider in what seems like a military corps of dragons, with the riders not needing to be from some particular familiy? I could be misremembering though.

[(f)Aegon (f)orever]

The Ice Dragon(s) could be the basis for the wall and blowing the Horn of Joramun, which is said to take down the wall, could be the equivalent of Dragonbinder but for the ice dragons to be awakened and tamed.

This whole thought might be influenced by Attack on Titan though.

[Senatus]

It's been a while since I read The Ice Dragon, but if I remember correctly in that reality you don't need special blood to be a dragonrider, right? Like, kids dream of growing up to be a dragonrider in what seems like a military corps of dragons, with the riders not needing to be from some particular familiy? I could be misremembering though.

From what I've read there isn't any actual elaboration on that. All we know is that there are dragonriders fighting, and that her uncle Hal is one of them. But then again, the description of Adarra seems to point at some Targaryen (Valyrian) features, meaning her uncle might simply have some Targaryen (Valyrian) dragonblood as well. I don't see any reason in the book why we should believe you don't need special blood.

[K-26dp]

Adarra's sister was raped by enemy soldiers in the Ice Dragon, and her uncle was burned alive. It's not really a childrens' story.

Both kingdoms have corps of dragon riders, which doesn't quite match the situation in the ASOIAF universe.

The short story The Ice Dragon was originally published in 1980 and has adult themes

such as the rape of Adara's sister and the torture of her father, as well as explicit depictions of the horrors of war

.

The illustrated children's story The Ice Dragon was published in in 2006, and was edited to remove the adult themes. This recent illustrated publication of The Ice Dragon is a re-publish of the 2006 edition, with new illustrations.

Unless this is somehow set in the distant past or a distant land, I don't see how this story can be part of the ASoIaF universe. It's a great story though.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

I just read this story and I was really surprised when I read that it's in the same universe as ASOIAF. The story clearly takes place at a time when seasons were normal and Adara lives in the land now known as "beyond the Wall" (but there was no Wall then).

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

The short story The Ice Dragon was originally published in 1980 and has adult themes

such as the rape of Adara's sister and the torture of her father, as well as explicit depictions of the horrors of war

.

The illustrated children's story The Ice Dragon was published in in 2006, and was edited to remove the adult themes. This recent illustrated publication of The Ice Dragon is a re-publish of the 2006 edition, with new illustrations.

Unless this is somehow set in the distant past or a distant land, I don't see how this story can be part of the ASoIaF universe. It's a great story though.

Thanks for explaining that. I just read it and I came here to discuss it and I was surprised people were talking about

rape

because there was none in the book I read.

[Hrafntýr]

From what I've read there isn't any actual elaboration on that. All we know is that there are dragonriders fighting, and that her uncle Hal is one of them. But then again, the description of Adarra seems to point at some Targaryen (Valyrian) features, meaning her uncle might simply have some Targaryen (Valyrian) dragonblood as well. I don't see any reason in the book why we should believe you don't need special blood.

Like I said above, it's been a while since I read it. But I did have the impression that the members of the regiments of dragonriders (from two kingdoms!) were drawn from all sort of folk, including from villages like Adara's. And dragons, and dragonriders, were commonplace, at least the fire-breathing variety.

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

Interesting that the Manderly girl dreamed that when the dragons danced people died.

We assumed that it was Dany vs (F)Aegon, but it could be Dany's dragons vs Ice Dragons. Interesting.

That was Teora Toland who had the dream

[Ser Creighton]

I don't think that the location of the battle was a coincidence either. First Harrenhal, then the Gods Eye. Daemon marking the weirwood tree thirteen times. One for each day he waited for Aemond. All of that stuff is likely to be significant. Also, and I don't think I mentioned this any of the other times I posted about Aemond = Ice Dragon imagery, is it gives us a red, blue and green color grouping. The Gods Eye is home to the Isle of Faces, which is home to the green men.

I'm guessing the major battle will happen at the Blue Fork. The other two forks have already been used by GRRM as locales for major political events: Torrhen Stark bent the knee to Aegon at the Red Fork, and Robert slew Rhaegar at the Green Fork.

I've speculated that the Trident represents the past, present, and future dynasties of Westeros. But, it could (also) represent the three heads of the dragon, especially if Tyrion is one of them. Since the color green is pretty strongly associated with usurpers, and (by extension) the Baratheon-Lannister dynasty. Robert is called the Usurper literally dozens of times in the books, mostly by Dany, though he acknowledges that some in the 7K still call him that. And of course the Lannisters quite literally stole the throne. Dany would be represented by the red, as she is a noted "true Targaryen." Jon by the blue. The hidden, northern dragon, also symbolized by the blue rose. Then again, there is a pretty strong connection, via the Ice Dragon constellation, with the color blue.

Well I think you know the Trident theory you wrote is still one of my favs. Though there are some things that perplex me, not with your theory but in the current discussion, I have been rethinking certain aspects of what I write about.

I fully support the inverse parallels I look at it as a strong broad strokes tool on parallels though like any theory it is not going to give you exact details on what Martin does. I consider it something to help other theories rather than an actual theory itself so that is where I apply it most often is on other theories. I consider Jon and the trident to be strong support for the unity of opposition, Jon is not symbolic of destruction, but rather is often depicted as a conciliator or conciliation. Which is why I look at destruction theories with a questionable eye, water is associated with Ragnarok, but in this book has the womb of the world a symbol of life.

So when I look at the colors I have some questions. We have seen the colors depicted in the stars. The Blue Star of the Dragon rider, the Red comet and the Green falling star. Like the title I don't apply one meaning to them, but it is green that has me curious. A usurper perhaps, but I also associate it with the children. Mostly because of that scene when Dunk sees it, and you have the singers and the trees and the star is at it's end and the sun is setting. But I could not figure out why usurper until I realized Bloodraven did just that, just not for himself.

For a long time I looked at Jon as ice or at least embracing his northern heritage, which I think there is some symbolism for that. Plus the wall and all that. He also has by and large the strongest inverse parallels to Dany. But there is the nagging conciliator in Jon, that does not lend him to being one or the other but rather both. Though the fire is not yet realized, so it's really just a half full scale at the moment so to speak. Now Jon, Dany, Bran, and Tyrion all have this sort of interesting Dance they do. Jon's conciliator parallel is shared by Tyrion though we see an inverse there. Wolf and Dragon, and Lion and Dragon. The Winged Wolf and the Manitcore. Because really isn't that what Tyrion' symbolism shows us? Green and Black are the colors of the manticore and the lion, dragon, and man are the physical symbols of it. He is also associated with poison, it seems to float around, him, Pycell, Oberyn used Manticore venom to champion him, and of course Joff. Even the green fire had that sort of feel to it.

Bran, Jon, and Dany all share one thing that Tyrion does not. Remember Jon' dream of AA as him. Well basically you get the whole Ice and fire theme right there. You have the frozen dead on one side and I believe the fire arrows were probably coming from the other side and Jon was in the middle. Jon of course in ice and holding fire as he stands on the wall which is a precipice, it's near perfect symbolism of a scale and the unity of opposition. Which reminds me Sword of the morning and Sword of the evening pretty much says it all. Anyway all three are associated with Ice and fire symbolism, Dany and the cups and Bran sits between a Dragon and an Ice man. Bran is also the only POV character further north than Jon. Though he is not a dragon or a secret Targ. Bloodraven is though and that Tree that is really him is armored in Ice and embracing Darkness. But his days really seem numbered, he is already basically dead. I am not sure how to put it but it seems Tyrion and Jon sit between Dany and Bran/Bloodraven. What I can't figure out is why Dany and Jon have the strongest Parallels. Like with the sword of the morning and the sword of the evening. Jon would not be either of them, Jon would be what bound them together, if they bind. Just like he binds both their houses together. Taking a look at him he would be standing between them trying to both stop them and unite them. Tyrion on the other hand, could poison the waters so to speak or act as Jon but from Dany's perspective rather than Brans. By the way I am not sure Jon would be the Blue fork, rather for some odd reason given his nature he would be the black water which the Trident

Anyway with Martin an Ice Dragon could be so many things and more than one thing. A sword, a dragon a person, all three at once.

A concern I have is Tyrion. You have these cycles with all the characters, Dany has these symbolic or near literal rebirths. Jon has the question on leaving the watch. He left but his friends convinced him to return, and Ghost gave him away to them. Had he not returned Mormont was waiting for him to stop him or at least his men were. It happened again and this time he got stabbed by his men and his wolf is absent. Tyrion on the other hand haas that formula as well. His story is repeating for the third time. Tyrion was accused of trying to kill Bran, he was innocent he neither wanted him dead, nor tried to have him kill, but it ended in a trial by combat in the Vale, Tyrion wins. Next He is accused of killing Joff, he did want him dead but he did not do it. The trial gets mixed results basically both men dying and Tyrion found wrongfully accused. Tyrion now stands accused of killing his father, and without question he did it. Yet this time no trial, at least not yet. Not sure what that is symbolic of but it always ends in conflict and begins with assassinations.