Is Arya more like Ned or Catelyn or some other Stark Relative?

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

She isn't too young. Cat was her age when she was kissing LF and Lysa was even younger than Arya in AGoT. SR is younger than her and likes kissing.

Asha said she was curious about kissing and kissed a boy before puberty. She went farther with Trisifer once she flowered but the interest was there before.

She may have liked Gendry but I don't see Gendry as definitive proof when he's the only example that can be provided and he is not her first sexual experience.

Raff is.

If she can touch a male she doesn't like I don't see age as what's preventing her from finding one she does and touching him.

Difference is that all those had normal childoods compared to Arya. Traumatic experiences can stunt, delay, slow down a persons sexual maturity.

[David Selig]

What happened here?

Also, Arya=Ned, Sansa=Cat, but just to play with our heads GRRM has Arya live in the Riverlands and then be "Cat of the Canals" (another type of flowing body of water) and sends Sansa to be mentored in the Vale. In other words, they switch narrative roles, but personality-wise Arya is very much like Ned: charismatic, pack-leader, is very devoted to the old gods, and values the martial arts.

Sansa is dutiful, diplomatic, embraces her role as a woman of noble birth (but hasn't yet matured enough to be critically aware of it the way her mother was), and is more than a little snooty.

Ned was charismatic? That's news to me.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

She takes after the parent who also has a list of people she's going to kill...

hint: not Ned.

[ARYa_Nym]

IA. It can also make it go faster. Some that go through trauma turn away from it and some turn towards it more.

But her lack of interest in romance and marriage was there since her little talks with Ned. The stuff that I was saying was part of nurture is the sex being linked with violence with her. A lot of child soldiers IRL will rape and the females often are used for sex although it depends which group you're talking about. Some of them don't allow that. Anyways, they're worse than her IRL but perhaps he wanted to show the psychological effect that repeated rapes and being exposed to sex early by being in brothels daily so obviously she would turn out to exhibit behavior that is unlike any of her family members and it's not like most child soldiers would end up like either Cat or Lyanna.

[Knight Of Winter]

I don't have much to add, except link to two terrific posts on this subject:

Well, look at Catelyn's interactions with people, and her inner monologue, and compare them with Sansa's, and with Arya's. Even though she observes the way a lady is supposed to behave and gets involved in politics, Catelyn is a very pragmatic, assertive, down-to-earth and matter-of-fact person. Although she may not always be blunt - she can hold her tongue when it's really inappropriate and damaging to say something (but Arya also learns when to keep her mouth shut), playing nice, stroking people's egos and lying to spare their feelings is not really Cat's thing. Catelyn observes that Sansa was a "lady at three, always eager to please". Catelyn is not a people-pleaser, any more than Arya is. For instance, if Sansa were sent to deal with Renly and Stannis, I can never see her telling them outright that they were acting like silly boys. If Catelyn was dealing with Sweetrobin, I don't think she would have successfully manipulated him by pretending to be weak and helpless and that he was the big strong man, and if she was being unjustly accused by Lysa as Sansa was in ASOS, she would have stuck to her guns to the end and even gotten angry at Lysa's irrationality and the injustice of it all, unlike Sansa, who went from saying it as it is, to trying to assuage the crazy person by apparently agreeing with her (which in that case didn't work out). Catelyn also tends to be cautious and distrust people, unless they are those who are really close to her and that he sees as her family (such as Petyr, her "little brother", one of her blind spots), just like Arya, while Sansa, like Ned, is more prone to assume that everyone is going to be good until they prove otherwise.

Sansa is a dreamer and has a lot of romanticism and idealism (Brienne is similar to her in that respect) that Cat and Arya don't have a lot of patience for. Granted, Arya does start off dreaming of being another warrior queen Nymeria and she does think that knights are there to protect the weak until she sees the reality in ACOK, and Catelyn liked romantic songs as a young girl, but it disappears pretty easily. Catelyn thinks of most songs about chivalry etc. as silly illusions that have nothing to do with reality and thinks with sadness that the young people who dream of glory of war are terribly deluded; that's a more mature version of Arya constantly thinking that this or that (including most songs) is "stupid". Sansa also gets disillusioned, but she is still a dreamer and an optimist at heart, so her mind is constantly recreating reality, to help her deal with her situation: we see in AGOT how bad this can be, when Sansa is making herself blind to what Joffrey and Cersei really are, but we also see later how her this tendency helps her emotionally survive: no matter how bad her situation is, she will hope that Dontos will be a Florian and help her escape; or that she will make Willas love her and they will have a beautiful marriage with puppies and children named Eddard, Bran and Rickon even though she knows the Tyrells are trying to use her; and her mind even creates romanticized fake memories about Sandor kissing her and clings to it; or pushes from memory and ignores the unpleasant memories and reality of Littlefinger's forced kisses; or tries to make herself see Littlefinger as the kind, fatherly "Petyr" that only wears "Littlefinger" as a mask, since she's stuck with him; or fantasizes about Mya Stone and Lothor Brune hooking up, etc. She's gotten thicker-skinned as a result of all that's happened to her ("My skin has turned to porcelain, to ivory, to steel") but she does not feel the emptiness and despair that Catelyn and Arya feel as a result of their grief:

I take no joy in mead nor meat, and song and laughter have become suspicious strangers to me. I am a creature of grief and dust and bitter longings. There is an empty place within me where my heart was once.

(Catelyn, ACOK)

She could feel the hole inside her every morning when she woke. It wasn’t hunger though sometimes there was that too. It was a hollow place, an emptiness where her heart had been...

(Arya, ASOS)

I have a hole where my heart should be, she thought, and nowhere else to go.

(Arya, AFFC)

Both Catelyn and Arya are strongly concerned with justice. This is where it gets complicated, but the theme of justice and revenge (and justice vs revenge) is strong in both their arcs (though more so in Cat's, since Arya's arc is also one about survival, similar to Sansa's). Sansa also has angry, vengeful thoughts, but they are fleeting and never amount to an obsession or a plan. Catelyn has a strong sense of justice, but her desire to protect her family always comes first, and it's what makes her do her most impulsive and controversial actions. She can even empathize with Cersei, but she admits to Brienne in ACOK: "I want them all dead, Brienne. Theon Greyjoy first, then Jaime Lannister and Cersei and the Imp, every one, every one." However, her actions are the opposite of that: she speaks against revenge, even argues for peace in AGOT, releases Jaime to get her daughters back, even though she hates him; she's against revenge not because of ethical reasons, but because she sees that it's hollow and won't get her her loved ones back, and as long as she thinks she has loved ones to fight for, this is what takes precedence. However, when Catelyn loses her husband and children one by one, she goes insane out of grief and shock just before her death; and as Lady Stoneheart, we see a twisted version of Catelyn who has no hope anymore and little reason or empathy, just this desperate desire for revenge that had been suppressed while she was alive. Arya, on her part, didn't need to lose her life or her mind to become focused on revenge; in normal circumstances, she would have been just protective and concerned with justice/angry at injustice (that's the girl we see acting impulsively trying to protect her friend from the asshole crown prince) and that's still who she is at the core (we see her sympathizing with the abused smallfolk and trying to punish the wrongdoers in ACOK, that's why she had Chyswick killed by Jaqen), but it's been manifesting more and more as a black-and-white worldview and obsession with her "list", which she's been clinging on since as her emotional anchor of sorts; killing these bad people is something she lives for because she can't see anything else to fight for.

This is not my best work for I am really too busy, so please be kind in your criticism :). Nevertheless, with a lot of pride and happiness I present you:

Arya and Sansa: Lyanna Stark's yin and yang

The story of Lyanna Stark and the truth about what truly happened to her have eluded the readers for the five installments of ASOIAF. From the secretive story about Knight of the laughing tree and suspicious kidnapping that arguably triggered the Rebellion that ended Targaryen reign to the mysterious parenthood of a bastard boy who is generally accepted as her son, nothing about Lyanna is certain and thus easily conclusive. So, to analyze who she really was, not only that we have to walk through the dark path of secrets and symbols, but also to guess and make some conclusions on our own. The truth about Lyanna Stark will have to wait for the next installments, and even then there is a slight chance we won’t know what truly happened 17 years prior to the current events.

What we know about Lyanna Stark came from the only man that appeared in the books who knew her – her brother Ned. And although Ned is not the most reliable source in these matters, in lack of other intelligence, we have to rely on some of his assessments and what he told about her. But, those small pieces of information are just the beginning, for this work will dwell on symbols and pieces of foreshadowing, some clues and literary parallels to go deeper in analyzing Lyanna and making some parallels with her character. At the end, it is my intention to show you, that although Arya is mostly compared to Lyanna, Lyanna actually represents the literary intersection between Ned’s two daughters.

The description of Lyanna Stark has always been rather interesting. The only daughter of Lord Rickard Stark was objectively quite the beauty, but below the feminine exteriority was hiding independent, willful and stubbornly uncompromising woman. Ned’s own description of Lyanna, although brotherly bias can be taken as accurate: a touch of wolf blood, iron beneath the beauty. Lyanna, just as her niece Arya, also had some odd interests, or at least odd for the women in society they lived. But unlike Arya who was allowed to pursue her interests, Lyanna wasn’t that lucky, for her father didn’t allow it. The comparison with Arya doesn’t end there. Ned explicitly says that Arya reminds him of Lyanna, and that they even share the looks and Harwin compared her riding with Lyanna’s in ASOS. The story about Knight of the laughing tree (for future reference, KoLT) also makes some striking parallels with Arya, as she-wolf protects the young crannogman from the abusive squires, wonderfully paralleling Arya’s defense of Mycah. So, we have two Stark women of similar looks, same blood and interests, even the same temper. Naturally, the parallels between two of them are easy to make, and they are never questioned. And if that is the Lyanna’s whole story, we would all be satisfied, but alas, it isn’t. And just as some events of Lyanna’s life complement her nature perfectly, the other daughter of Ned Stark complements her sister. For, perhaps in the union of the two sisters – both Arya and Sansa, we can find out who Lyanna genuinely was. For that we now have to embark on journey through the labyrinth of pieces of foreshadowing, hidden clues and symbols and with some conclusion we can make, also make some other parallels.

As I told, here we have to start concluding on our own. Harrenhal tourney and Tower of joy events are rather secretive, but through the story of Reed children about little crannogman and knight who saved him, Ned Stark’s memories and thoughts of some events, general opinion about Rhaegar, symbolism of the blue rose and the story about Bael the Bard, the pieces of that puzzle are coming together and truth is after all, not that elusive.

Let we start of what we know about Harrenhal tourney. From the Reed story, we know Lyanna was present there. We know how she defended the young Howland Reed, and we know how she cried during Rhaegar’s singing. This is rather striking contrast to the niece everyone’s comparing her to:

The emotional reaction on singing Lyanna demonstrated obviously is not something anyone would expect of Arya. Truth be told, we don’t know what Rhaegar had been singing about, but one thing is certain – it touched Lyanna’s heart. And regardless whether it is song about some past lovers like Florian and Jonquil, or some heroic poem about Doom of Valyria or even the song he composed about Summerhal tragedy (quick derail crackpot: perhaps that’s the song Tom has sung to Ghost of High Heart?), the fact is that Lyanna enjoyed it and that song evoked some emotions. Between two sisters, the one that is more into songs would be Sansa. Naturally, one has also to point out the possibility of flawed comparison. Perhaps Lyanna was just into Rhaegar and not song at all, but we should also add that, if she was indeed into Rhaegar, the comparison with Sansa is even more striking. For falling in love with a prince you know nothing about isn’t Arya’s type of story.

The second piece of undeniable truth is Lyanna’s protection of Howland Reed. The protecting the weak and defenseless is something both Ned’s daughters did in separate occasions. The prime example for Arya is Mycah and her defense against Crown Prince. The same M.O. can be seen through her wanderings through Riverlands when she in several occasions identifies with the commonfolk and sympathize with them. On the other hand, Sansa also shows that side in many occasions. First one is the Dontos situation when she instinctively reacted to protect the foolish knight. Sansa’s resounding “You can’t” comes from the very same place as Lyanna’s defense for Howland or Arya’s for Mycah. The situations naturally don’t mirror each other, but the will and determination behind them shouldn’t be easily disregarded.

And of course the last fact we know about Lyanna and Harrenhal is of course Rhaegar’s crowning. Rhaegar, for some mysterious reasons, crowned Lyanna as Queen of love and beauty after winning the tourney. Needless to say, this piece can’t be connected in any way with Arya, but Sansa was also someone who was honored with a rose during the tourney. Sansa was given red rose by Ser Loras in his semifinal match with Mountain at Hand’s tourney. Although the victor of the tourney was never crowned, Ser Loras did name Sandor Clegane as the champion. That very same night, Sandor told Sansa very important piece of his past thus, perhaps in a way like Rhaegar did with Lyanna, showed his interest in Sansa.

So, all three motifs – the song, the defense of the weak and the crowning can be in different ways related to both Sansa and Arya. Now, with the help of some hidden clues and pieces of foreshadowing we will continue on unknown possible parallels between Lyanna and Ned’s daughters. First one is identity of KoLT and the second is Lyanna’s romantic involvement with Rhaegar.

The identity of Knight of laughing tree is one of the most debatable topics on the boards. Mostly people agree that it was Lyanna under the helmet, but there are other viable candidates like Howland or Benjen. For the purpose of this essay and out of personal belief, I will make logical leap and make a premise that Lyanna was indeed KoLT.

If Lyanna was indeed KoLT, the story has Arya’s parallels all over it. There is not one person here who would say that Arya wouldn’t pull something like that, especially having Mycah incident in mind. Challenging three squires to defend the honor of someone who can’t do it by themselves, doing something only boys are supposed to do and thus rejecting the feminine role she is predisposed in the world she is living, well, that does sound a lot like Arya. We shouldn’t forget that Arya is someone who deliberately went against all rules when she defended Mycah, something Lyanna would have done as KoLT. Even the mistaken identity of Arya as a boy parallels Lyanna’s possible ability to pose as a man, and we should also remember Harwin’s words about how she rode like her aunt Lyanna. So, if KoLT was indeed Lyanna, the story makes strong and powerful connection with Arya, not only in looks, interests and temper, but on much profound level of how both girls acted the same in very similar situations.

The other mystery surrounding Lyanna is her questionable involvement with Rhaegar. Was it love or rape? Who was right, Robert or those who trusted Rhaegar? Well, the parallel for this story, the one that gives us clues of what might have happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna is the story of Bael the Bard and symbolism of blue winter rose. And just as in the story of Bael and Stark daughter, blue rose is connected with the forbidden love and eloping from the world, Rhaegar’s crown of blue winter roses also symbolized love and beauty. It should also be noted that Lyanna held the crown of dead flowers in her hands when Ned found her. All of this led many people, myself included, that Robert’s “official” version is nothing more than one man’s attempt to negate the truth, and that Lyanna indeed loved Rhaegar and escaped with him so she wouldn’t marry Robert.

The premise is rather clear and I won’t spend more time explaining it since you must have read all about it. But, more importantly for this debate is whom does this story reminds you of? Arya? Not for a second. For, as prepubescent Arya said once reacting on Ned Dayne’s story “love is stupid”. Childish reaction, without any doubt, but enough to make it clear that parallels with Lyanna stops here. So, we have Stark daughter who fell in love in the Crown Prince she objectively knew nothing about and eloped with him on the damage of her own family. For this one, we should turn to Sansa, who basically did the same. Now, we can all argue that Rhaegar is not Joffrey that he was kind and good and gentle, but at the end, both girls did the same. There is no big difference in what they or in the consequences of their actions. Lyanna blindly followed her heart and arguably she was luckier with Rhaegar than Sansa was with Joffrey, but striking parallels between their actions talks a lot about how Sansa truly is a Stark daughter, and how many parallels is there between her and some Stark family members.

Another very important parallel between Lyanna and Sansa is in fact how they responded to the husbands others chose for them. We know from Ned’s testimony that Lyanna wasn’t very much into Robert:

We can of course only speculate about whether the love for Rhaegar was the sole reason of her escaping or whether she also wanted to escape from the match her family made for her. One thing is certain. Perhaps not publically, but Lyanna certainly rejected Robert. Something very similar happened to Sansa during her wedding with Tyrion. She did it two times: when she refused to kneel in front of him making rather public statement about how she feels, which also goes very much into account of Starks being not kneelers, and second time was when she undoubtedly explained Tyrion that she might never want him. Wounded pride was the natural reaction for both men, as both Robert and Tyrion were rather hurt by what Lyanna and Sansa did to them respectively.

The last parallel between Lyanna and Ned’s elder daughter can be made between two descriptions:

Two great beauties Lyanna and Sansa are, also have a lot underneath the beautiful face. Although Lyanna is considered, just as Arya, harsher in terms of being stubborn, willful and strong-opinionated, thing is that Sansa isn’t far from that description. After the traumatic experience with Ned’s death and constant beating, Sansa, although compassionate and gentle girl, has also become much stronger and sometimes colder. And iron or steel underneath the beautiful face and body is something that characterizes both women.

Just as the yin and yang are opposite but complementary forces of universe, Arya and Sansa represent two faces of Lyanna. Denying one is actually denying Lyanna’s story in complete, for without one, the other part of Lyanna wouldn’t be possible. Lyanna’s story surpasses Sansa’s romantic soul or Arya’s wild nature, coexisting somewhere between, being at the same time both and none of two of Ned's girls.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Ned was charismatic? That's news to me.

I think it's strongly suggested by how the Mountian Clans regarded him and treated him, as well the Crannogmen. It takes a person of forceful personality to hold westerosi lords in line, as evident by Robb's learning curve when it came to getting their respect.

[Balerion the one eared cat]

STOP it. before you start, Arya IS Ned & Catelyn's

....(secret Targ)....

;)

nah, she's like Auntie Lyanna, with a pretty even balance of Ned and Cat to go along with it - she leans towards her Stark-ness and Ned-ness overall.

[TheHouseHB]

A combination of Lyanna and Brandon Stark...

Both ended up dead.

[Brightstar_]

She's always been compared to Lyanna

[Annara Snow]

What happened here?

Also, Arya=Ned, Sansa=Cat, but just to play with our heads GRRM has Arya live in the Riverlands and then be "Cat of the Canals" (another type of flowing body of water) and sends Sansa to be mentored in the Vale. In other words, they switch narrative roles, but personality-wise Arya is very much like Ned: charismatic, pack-leader, is very devoted to the old gods, and values the martial arts.

Sansa is dutiful, diplomatic, embraces her role as a woman of noble birth (but hasn't yet matured enough to be critically aware of it the way her mother was), and is more than a little snooty.

Personality wise, Arya is nothing like Ned. She's the least like him of all his children.

Values marital arts? Ned didn't choose to learn to use a sword because he liked it. In fact, he never shows any particular interest in swordfighting, fighting in general or war beyond what was necessary to perform his societal role as lord. He was never a particularly good swordsman or fighter, he's not interested in tournaments or duels. Ned did what he did because he's a dutiful man who does what is expected of him and his social role. Had he been a girl, he would have played the proper role of a lady. Arya, on the contrary, challenges her gender role and is more than a little rebellious, which is not like Ned at all.

Charismatic pack leader? Ned never became "a pack leader" on his own, due to some charisma or whatever, he became the lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North because his elder brother died, and he inherited it. He didn't even want to to be Hand of the King. And he never even expected or was preparing himself to be lord of Winterfell. The role was thrust upon him.

In personality, he was Arya's opposite: a shy, stoic, dutiful man without any obvious great charm or charisma or any will to take charge of things unless he has to. He nevertheless was respected due to his just and kind nature.

Worships the old gods? That has nothing to do with personality.

Catelyn was never particularly "snooty" (hating Jon is not about "snootiness" but about very personal reasons), so I don't see how that's similar to young Sansa, and Sansa has grown out of "snootiness" anyway.

Diplomatic? Catelyn's and Sansa's approach to diplomacy are diametrically opposite. They both know how to observe the necessary courtesies, but Catelyn is assertive and pretty harsh and impatient with people whose behavior she finds to be stupid and frustrating. If Sansa had been sent as an envoy to Renly and witnessed his conversation with Stannis, she would never have told them that they are like silly boys that need to be disciplined. (Catelyn's frustration with the stupidity of the Baratheon brothers, Edmure and others makes me hear Arya's childish voice: "It's stupid".) Sansa would be perfectly sweet and would know how to stroke their egos, or would at least do her best to keep any negative thoughts to herself and only tell them complimentary things, something that Cat was never interested in doing.

Sansa having been accepting of her role as a woman of noble birth makes her as similar to Ned as to Cat - Ned very much accepted his role as a man of noble birth, and wasn't even critical of it, unlike Catelyn. But in that respect, Sansa actually is different from both her parents, since, contrary to the opinion of people who didn't really understand her and her motives, she's actually not very dutiful. (Tyrion, for instance, thought that she was "dutiful" while she was planning to escape King's Landing, and that she was going to the godswood to pray, while she was meeting Dontos to help her escape.) Case in point: Sansa actually acts the opposite of dutiful on the first occasion when her personal wishes clash with what her father wants her to do. Unlike Arya, she had been trying to be a good girl, to do what was expected of her. She made herself believe that the prince she was arranged to marry was a great guy and her ideal man. But she never thought: "I don't like this boy, but I must marry him anyway because my father wants me to and because it's my duty", and when her infatuation grew but her father told her she wasn't going to marry Joffrey and remain in King's Landing (her dream place at the time), she disobeyed him and went to an other adult authority figure who could overrule his decision. Since her father's death, Sansa has been a hostage and prisoner in one way or another (even after leaving KL, she is dependent on Lysa and later LF), so she was hardly in the position to even have an idea of "duty" - who is she to feel duty to, when all her family is dead or gone? We have her POV, and we know that Sansa does not even think in terms of duty, any more than Arya does: they are both fighting for survival, primarily. Arya is also very motivated by a desire for justice/revenge, but she also feels compassion and desire to protect people. Sansa is also motivated by compassion, love, a desire to go home and be reunited with her family (increasingly unlikely/impossible at this point) and a desire to find love and something good and nice in life, and her romanticism and idealism and desire to be loved has always been a much stronger motivator than any sense of duty. As a child, she played her role perfectly because her personal interests and talent for "girly" things (dressing nicely, songs, poetry, music, sewing...) matched the role she was supposed to have (which was not the case with Arya), and because she was getting positive reinforcement from everyone around her. Cat notes that Sansa was always "eager to please": if she was less rebellious than Arya, it's because Sansa dislikes conflict and wants to be liked/loved by people, not because he had a deep devotion to whatever her "duty" is supposed to be. And at 13, Sansa not only does not embrace her role as a woman of noble birth, but is rejecting it in her personal thoughts, even though she hasn't had a chance to voice them to others since she's forced to keep her real feelings to herself - since she's lost her romantic illusions about marriage and believes no one will ever marry her for love, and that everyone just wants her claim, she does not want to marry at all. (Also observe that she doesn't feel any sense of obligation for the marriage that was forced on her, even though the ceremony was performed in the sept with the High Septon conducting it, sees it as a mockery and as something she's luckily escaped and doesn't have to deal with anymore.)

Out of all the Stark kids, Jon Snow is the one who is highly motivated by duty. We have his POVs and we know that this is something he cares about a lot. Arya and Sansa, on the other hand, don't even think about it in those terms. And it would also be unclear at this point who and what they should feel "dutiful" to. But even if their AGOT chapters, I don't see Sansa being motivated by duty any more than Arya was.

As to who Arya seems to take most after: in looks, obviously her father and by extension, his family (and she's particularly similar to Lyanna). In temperament, she resembles Catelyn as well as Lyanna and possibly Brandon and other Starks, but she's really not like Ned. (Sansa and Bran seem to have most of Ned's quiet temperament.)

However, something that people seem to forget in these type of debates is that people don't inherit their character traits, particularly not values and morality, they are mostly formed through upbringing, influences of the environment and circumstances. None of the Starks or the Tullys has ever been in a situation similar to Arya, nor has lead the kind of life she has since she was 9. So, of course she's going to be very different. Her values and morality have been initially shaped by Ned and Cat and others at Winterfell, but she's had many other influences since, very different influences. It doesn't make a lot of sense to say, for instance, "well, Brandon would never use sex to murder someone!" when Brandon Stark, as an able-bodied highborn male with lots of fighting training and heir to Winterfell, never had to resort to using sex to kill someone; if he wanted to kill someone, he could just kill them (which he was, for instance, willing to do with LF during their duel). (BTW, the argument that Brandon was willing "to do his duty" even though he didn't like it, is pretty weak and very questionable, since Brandon's duty consisted of being Lord of Winterfell and marrying a beautiful highborn maiden, who was likely not going to have sex with him before marriage - and we know how much Brandon liked taking the virginities of beautiful highborn maidens, he was just usually able to get away with it without marrying them. In other words, it's easy to do your duty when that duty is very pleasant and matches pretty well with your personal desires. To believe that Brandon was going to do the duty he disliked, you have to believe Lady Dustin's words and believe that Brandon was being sincere with her when he told her he didn't want to marry Cat. I'm inclined to think he was totally bullshitting her. He wasn't going to say: "yeah, well, it was fun, but I never actually intended to marry you, and this girl my father wants me to marry is also hot, so why not marry her if I have to marry someone.")

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

IA. It can also make it go faster. Some that go through trauma turn away from it and some turn towards it more.

But her lack of interest in romance and marriage was there since her little talks with Ned. The stuff that I was saying was part of nurture is the sex being linked with violence with her. A lot of child soldiers IRL will rape and the females often are used for sex although it depends which group you're talking about. Some of them don't allow that. Anyways, they're worse than her IRL but perhaps he wanted to show the psychological effect that repeated rapes and being exposed to sex early by being in brothels daily so obviously she would turn out to exhibit behavior that is unlike any of her family members and it's not like most child soldiers would end up like either Cat or Lyanna.

Different people are going to react differently. When I was around Arya's age, I was exposed to a lot of violence (nowhere near her, though) and all sexual situations I observed or was involved in had an older person taking advantage of a younger person. That and my lack of trust just lead me away from meaningful relationships with people and away from anything sexual.

My thought were similar to Arya's. I would notice things attractive about others but not have sexual thoughts about them. Yet so many years later and I am not an asexual and have had sexual experiences. So I expect Arya to go the same route.

[ARYa_Nym]

(BTW, the argument that Brandon was willing "to do his duty" even though he didn't like it, is pretty weak and very questionable, since Brandon's duty consisted of being Lord of Winterfell and marrying a beautiful highborn maiden, who was likely not going to have sex with him before marriage - and we know how much Brandon liked taking the virginities of beautiful highborn maidens, he was just usually able to get away with it without marrying them. In other words, it's easy to do your duty when that duty is very pleasant and matches pretty well with your personal desires. To believe that Brandon was going to do the duty he disliked, you have to believe Lady Dustin's words and believe that Brandon was being sincere with her when he told her he didn't want to marry Cat. I'm inclined to think he was totally bullshitting her. He wasn't going to say: "yeah, well, it was fun, but I never actually intended to marry you, and this girl my father wants me to marry is also hot, so why not marry her if I have to marry someone.")

I didn't say that nor did I mention Lady Dustin.

That he liked beautiful maidens and would be all the willing to marry one shows a difference. She does not in comparison have a weakness for handsome lords and would not be all too willing to marry one.

Brandon-

Now it's been said that since Arya isn't all like Cat the differences are where she is like Brandon. I don't necessarily agree. Brandon is promiscuous and Arya is so far showing no interest in sex. Cat was dutiful but for all his wildness Brandon was willing to do his duty as well. So just because she wouldn't do a strategic marriage like her mother that doesn't make her more like Brandon.

Essentially in relationships it's true that she's not like Lyanna but she does not mirror Brandon or Cat there either.

I said that he was willing to do his duty as well which is fact. He was going to marry Catelyn and be the lord like he was expected to do.

However, something that people seem to forget in these type of debates is that people don't inherit their character traits, particularly not values and morality, they are mostly formed through upbringing, influences of the environment and circumstances. None of the Starks or the Tullys has ever been in a situation similar to Arya, nor has lead the kind of life she has since she was 9. So, of course she's going to be very different. Her values and morality have been initially shaped by Ned and Cat and others at Winterfell, but she's had many other influences since, very different influences. It doesn't make a lot of sense to say, for instance, "well, Brandon would never use sex to murder someone!" when Brandon Stark, as an able-bodied highborn male with lots of fighting training and heir to Winterfell, never had to resort to using sex to kill someone; if he wanted to kill someone, he could just kill them (which he was, for instance, willing to do with LF during their duel).

He didn't but the fact that she did have to resort to these things matter since both nature and nurture form who you are. We can't just for example dismiss that she kills because well she wouldn't have been doing that if she had a different life experience. Well, she didn't have a different life experience and this is what she is like now. None of them have been in a situation like her so obviously she would end up as someone who may have similarities yet is different at the same time.

Not to mention people can go through the same things or similar and still not end up the same.

Anyways, I don't think for that specific instance she was in a position where she had to do anything. It wasn't like the Bolton guard. Her training also has been centered on not engaging in combat but she didn't get that from them. Poison is not her preference though.

Different people are going to react differently. When I was around Arya's age, I was exposed to a lot of violence (nowhere near her, though) and all sexual situations I observed or was involved in had an older person taking advantage of a younger person. That and my lack of trust just lead me away from meaningful relationships with people and away from anything sexual.

My thought were similar to Arya's. I would notice things attractive about others but not have sexual thoughts about them. Yet so many years later and I am not an asexual and have had sexual experiences. So I expect Arya to go the same route.

Yeah, some people end up like that. I don't see her as shying away from it though.

[bloodofwinterfell]

Arya is Arya. She shares some traits with Ned, Catelyn, Lyanna, and others, but these qualities all come together to make Arya who she is.

[Meemaw]

I firmly believe that if someone offered marriage to Arya that would help restore her family and to get revenge Arya would do it Not as a duty but to achieve a goal. Who knows if the husband would have a strange accident later :ninja: but Arya is all about her list and goals.

[ARYa_Nym]

I firmly believe that if someone offered marriage to Arya that would help restore her family and to get revenge Arya would do it Not as a duty but to achieve a goal. Who knows if the husband would have a strange accident later :ninja: but Arya is all about her list and goals.

She was offered that and one of them could have been used to get revenge.

The KM offered a rich old man. She could have said she wanted a young one if age was a problem or that she wanted a lord or some rich merchant or someone with influence. Lynesse Hightower's dealings with a rich man will allow her to get ships for her family. Illyrio imo is funding his Blackfyre cause by being rich. Marriage helped Alys get men to fight for her so telling the KM she wanted to marry a lord would do that.

But when he offered a sailor, a young honest apprentice boy, a rich old man she thought she wanted none of that.

I think she likes revenge but she has a specific way she wants to get it. She does not entertain getting revenge through other means.

Like she's not one of those the best revenge is success so let me become as powerful as I can. Or LF's route which is not too far off of getting money and a high political position so he can influence things and get things where he wants them to go. Or the best revenge is living my life to the fullest. She instead joins a death cult and has a lifestyle that could end in her death. Or Tywin's I'm going to use the privileges my position allows to destroy my enemies. Granted some of these involve killing as well but not only that.

Bran also seemed to think she would resist marrying Elmar and that was intended to help her family.

[Meemaw]

None of the offers from the Kindly Man would have helped her restore House Stark.

[ARYa_Nym]

None of the offers from the Kindly Man would have helped her restore House Stark.

I'd say yes there were but it's not a guarantee.

One of the options was to marry rich. I used Lynesse's connections to a rich man as an example. It's not a guarantee because not every wife is going to have automatic or unlimited access to money. However, as an example WF needs to be rebuilt. You need money for that. The coming winter there might be food shortages. Money can pay for that maybe overseas or from other regions. If they need more soldiers she can purchase sellswords with money. If she wants to bribe someone she would need money for that.

I also mentioned nothing prevented her from coming up with options. Like saying something specific that she wanted to benefit her house. Other options certainly could help her house more as opposed to sticking with the FM who will send her on missions that further their agenda not her family's, and will not inform her about the political realities going on in the North and the Riverlands even though I'm sure they know which may make her too late to help once she finally finds out.

[Meemaw]

I felt and Im sure Arya felt that the Kindly Man was testing her and it wasn't a true offer at the time. The person that she will marry will have to offer something to achieve her goals.

[ARYa_Nym]

I felt and Im sure Arya felt that the Kindly Man was testing her and it wasn't a true offer at the time. The person that she will marry will have to offer something to achieve her goals.

Even if he was she didn't know or think that. So it remains the same. She didn't want to marry and use that to benefit her house.

Honestly she hasn't done anything where her house would benefit from it yet. Her kills benefit her and those she's in immediate contact with.

[Daenerys Targaryen's slave]

Even if he was she didn't know or think that. So it remains the same. She didn't want to marry and use that to benefit her house.

Honestly she hasn't done anything where her house would benefit from it yet. Her kills benefit her and those she's in immediate contact with.

She's a serial killer.