Ygrain Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 It is a main piece of evidence because polygamy is discussed in the books infrequently. GRRM hides big mysteries by not talking about them a lot. So when Jorah offhandley assumes that Dany could take a second husband, it serves as a pretty big clue that it is not illegal in Westeros because he would not be recommending she go to win over Westeros having broken on of its laws (while slavery in Essos is a matter of the laws of Essos and thus a different matter). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 What UL said. I was typing too fast to be clear. But the fact that GRRM has Jorah say it is the clue--never mind what Jorah's own motives are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 What UL said. I was typing too fast to be clear. But the fact that Lord Jorah doesn't think it's illegal for Dany to wed two men is a big clue that Westeros never outlawed it. Or... 1. she has three dragons and start the Targ Dynasty and new rules from scratch with them and 2. He wants to get into her pants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Or...1. she has three dragons and start the Targ Dynasty and new rules from scratch with them and2. He wants to get into her pants. *sigh* I edited my own response to reflect something else. 2. Ok. No. Look, I've said this. Yes, he has another motive in that he's in love with her but this is JORAH. He doesn't actually want Dany to marry anyone else. He isn't using this as a means of sleeping with her for god's sake. He never even tries to kiss her again or even makes any kind of move afterwards. He's actually suggesting an alternative. It's not what he likes given his controlling nature but it's one that he thinks is an option for her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 But the comments by Barristan and Connington about people needing to be "free to marry" can be brushed aside? Anyway as I said before as a ruling queen Daenerys can do whatever she wants. *sigh* I edited my own response to reflect something else. 2. Ok. No. Look, I've said this. Yes, he has another motive in that he's in love with her but this is JORAH. He doesn't actually want Dany to marry anyone else. He isn't using this as a means of sleeping with her for god's sake. He never even tries to kiss her again or even makes any kind of move afterwards. He's actually suggesting an alternative. It's not what he likes given his controlling nature but it's one that he thinks is an option for her. Not that it really matters, but I still say he was linking being her husband to being "a head of the dragon" and a dragon rider. If polygamy were legal why would Quentyn's mission be considered a failure when they learn Daenerys is to be married the next day? Surely the socially liberal Dornish would have no issues with it. So why didn't he or anyone else suggest it? It'd actually be a pretty great solution, Hizdar could be her king in Mereen and Quentyn her king in Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 *sigh* I edited my own response to reflect something else. 2. Ok. No. Look, I've said this. Yes, he has another motive in that he's in love with her but this is JORAH. He doesn't actually want Dany to marry anyone else. He isn't using this as a means of sleeping with her for god's sake. He never even tries to kiss her again or even makes any kind of move afterwards. He's actually suggesting an alternative. It's not what he likes given his controlling nature but it's one that he thinks is an option for her. And, moreover, it is the way that GRRM gives clues. There are virtually always "alternative" explanations for every clue--that is why they are only clues and not proof. But as clues go, this one seems to be a pretty good one--not determinative, but indicative. But the comments by Barristan and Connington about people needing to be "free to marry" can be brushed aside? Anyway as I said before as a ruling queen Daenerys can do whatever she wants. Not that it really matters, but I still say he was linking being her husband to being "a head of the dragon" and a dragon rider. If polygamy were legal why would Quentyn's mission be considered a failure when they learn Daenerys is to be married the next day? Surely the socially liberal Dornish would have no issues with it. So why didn't he or anyone else suggest it? It'd actually be a pretty great solution, Hizdar could be her king in Mereen and Quentyn her king in Westeros. Quentyn considered it a failure because most people don't actually practice polygamy and don't think of it as an option. Jorah is a close advisor to Dany--so he can suggest something that is technically legal but not really done. Quentyn cannot do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 But the comments by Barristan and Connington about people needing to be "free to marry" can be brushed aside? But the comments by Jorah can be brushed away because he's an ex-slaver and in love? JonCon has a motive as well. He has to make sure fAegon is the perfect prince. That means ascribing to the cultural mores of Westeros, but that doesn't speak to the legality of polygamy. If polygamy were legal why would Quentyn's mission be considered a failure when they learn Daenerys is to be married the next day? Surely the socially liberal Dornish would have no issues with it. So why didn't he or anyone else suggest it? It'd actually be a pretty great solution, Hizdar could be her king in Mereen and Quentyn her king in Westeros. But that's not why it's a failure. Dany is marrying but she's also staying behind in Essos. She's not planning to leave yet. His plan is a failure because he can't get her to come back and fulfill the agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Quentyn considered it a failure because most people don't actually practice polygamy and don't think of it as an option. Jorah is a close advisor to Dany--so he can suggest something that is technically legal but not really done. Quentyn cannot do that. But the comments by Barristan and Connington about people needing to be "free to marry" can be brushed aside? Anyway as I said before as a ruling queen Daenerys can do whatever she wants. Not that it really matters, but I still say he was linking being her husband to being "a head of the dragon" and a dragon rider. If polygamy were legal why would Quentyn's mission be considered a failure when they learn Daenerys is to be married the next day? Surely the socially liberal Dornish would have no issues with it. So why didn't he or anyone else suggest it? It'd actually be a pretty great solution, Hizdar could be her king in Mereen and Quentyn her king in Westeros. Aside from what UL said, Aegon definitely cannot flirt with reviving old customs when he has hard time proving that he is who he claims to be in the first place. Dany is in a precarious position in Meereen and cannot currently risk undermining what she has achieved by offering Quentyn to be a second husband (which he probably wouldn't be too happy about, anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Quentyn considered it a failure because most people don't actually practice polygamy and don't think of it as an option. Jorah is a close advisor to Dany--so he can suggest something that is technically legal but not really done. Quentyn cannot do that. Do you not agree that as Queen Daenerys could take a second husband even if it was illegal? If so then how is this evidence of it being technically legal? (I realize, that as the person with the crazy theory the burden of proof is on me, not you. But at this point we're just discussing Jorah's statement as evidence that polygamy was never outlawed.) But the comments by Jorah can be brushed away because he's an ex-slaver and in love? No. The slaver thing was just to indicate that he hasn't always been especially concerned with the legality of things. The love, and the idea that she would never take him as her sole husband, provides his motivation. As I've said several times his suggestion can still be valid if there is a law against polygamy in Westeros. She plans to conquer it and become the queen. JonCon has a motive as well. He has to make sure fAegon is the perfect prince. That means ascribing to the cultural mores of Westeros, but that doesn't speak to the legality of polygamy. It's possible it is just a cultural thing. It's also possible it's part of the law. I think the law option might be more likely since the kingdoms are made up of more than one culture. The Jorah quote isn't any better at speaking to the legality of polygamy. But that's not why it's a failure. Dany is marrying but she's also staying behind in Essos. She's not planning to leave yet. His plan is a failure because he can't get her to come back and fulfill the agreement. I'd have to re-read some stuff before I get into this. I just don't remember that part well enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 It's possible it is just a cultural thing. It's also possible it's part of the law. I think the law option might be more likely since the kingdoms are made up of more than one culture. The Jorah quote isn't any better at speaking to the legality of polygamy. What if it was someone else who said it besides Jorah, a man in love? Like UL says, GRRM just sticks it there in an offhand sort of way but JonCon has reasons for why Aegon must uphold some sort of perfect prince ideal. And after the World book I don't think it's possible it's part of the law. We've talked about this already but the Maester doesn't make any sort of mention of outlawing something as big as polygamy. Given all the detail he does go into about just about everything else, for him to NOT mention outlawing polygamy would just be odd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 [snip] WOW--two re-prints in one day from Ygrain for the purpose of bolding something I wrote. I feel quite honored. :cheers: Do you not agree that as Queen Daenerys could take a second husband even if it was illegal? If so then how is this evidence of it being technically legal? (I realize, that as the person with the crazy theory the burden of proof is on me, not you. But at this point we're just discussing Jorah's statement as evidence that polygamy was never outlawed.) Now your thinking is getting a little circular. If Dany can do whatever she wants as queen, then Quentyn also could have tried to get her to marry him as a second husband regardless of the law (and, of course, BQ87 points out the real reason it was a failure). By my real point is not to look at the close technical explanation for why Jorah might have made the statement. The question is whether it appears to be a "clue" in the vain in which GRRM tends to set forth clues to big mysteries. We can be pretty sure that RLJ ultimately will come out. My theory is that RLJ comes out in Book 6, but I think we might have to wait for Book 7 to find out that R+L=legit J (Howland Reed stays hidden until Book 7 under this theory because he has to know whether there was a marriage). If that is the case, the reveal of RLJ will set up a mystery in which Jon will assume he is still a bastard -- just different unmarried parents than he thought -- but the readers who pay close attention will realize he is not. For that purpose, GRRM needs to set up subtle clues regarding polygamy. To me, this quote from Jorah strikes me as a subtle clue. Maybe I am wrong. That is how these clues work--you are rarely sure you are reading them correctly until the underlying theories are either proven or disproven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Now your thinking is getting a little circular. If Dany can do whatever she wants as queen, then Quentyn also could have tried to get her to marry him as a second husband regardless of the law (and, of course, BQ87 points out the real reason it was a failure). If Dany felt like she could do whatever she wanted as Queen, she wouldn't have married Hizzy. She did it because, as she says, a queen belongs to her people not to herself. She feels like she can't abandon SB and has to at least TRY for peace. Quentyn's offer was one small kingdom and the promise of marriage but no solution to her "here and now" issue which was the Harpy and the Sons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 DP because internet hates me or something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 The Internet hates everyone! Do remember that the links in my signature are for the tower of joy . . . ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 DP because internet hates me or somethingAww, have a hug BQ :grouphug: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost's Shadow Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Do remember that the links in my signature are for the tower of joy . . . ;) Ugh, not that thing again. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingmonkey Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 SSM here Maegor the Cruel has multiple wives, from lines outside his own, so there was and is precedent. However, the extent to which the Targaryen kings could defy convention, the Faith, and the opinions of the other lords decreased markedly after they no longer had dragons. If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want, and people are less likely to object. Convention, the Faith and popular opinion oppose polygamy, but not strongly enough to say so to someone who'll burn their faces off with a dragon if they do. The law is rather moot when you're the one making it. Like Judge Dredd, Drogon IS the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Ugh, not that thing again. :lol: We do occasionally get someone that is looking for them. :devil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted November 4, 2014 Share Posted November 4, 2014 Aww, have a hug BQ :grouphug: Ooooh. 1) Thanks 2) New siggy = New Radio Westeros! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted November 5, 2014 Share Posted November 5, 2014 Boo Bear Jorah will make it all better. He will destroy the internet. :bowdown: Just like the Geek Squad wiped out my computer....... :bawl: :bawl: :bawl: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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