R+L=J v.112

[UnmaskedLurker]

I think this overlooks the chest-thumping that is the subtext of the conversation. Ned says, we beat you on the Trident, your king is dead and betrayed by a KG, your bannermen at Storm's End surrendered. The KG's respond to each taunt with: if we had been there, the result would have been different. Woe to the usurper if we were at the Trident. We would not have surrendered at Storm's End

And most importantly, if we were in King's Landing, we would not have fled (and neither would Viserys) because if the three of us were there we would have stayed and fought and won and Aerys would still be king. In other words, Darry is a good man, but he had to flee with Rhaella and Viserys because he could not have single handedly defeated your army. But we could, and if we were there, no one would have run away.

Obviously, this is an idle boast. If Hightower had been the only KG at King's Landing and Aerys ordered him to go to Dragonstone with Rhaella and Viserys, Hightower would have obeyed. Just like Thorne and Fell obeyed when Larys Strong ordered them to flee with Aegon II's children, leaving the king in the care of a bastard knight.

Here is what you are missing from the quote. They say then or now. "Then" it might be fleeing. But "now" is it fleeing now? Then Viserys was not yet king--Aerys was still alive. So a reference to fleeing then makes sense. But he make a point of adding the words "or now." Why? Why would it still be fleeing to go to the king? It would not be. Thus, Viserys is not king.

[sj4iy]

Yes, Momort referred to the raven as he, Jon, however, referred to the raven as it

Good writers don't continuously use the same wording for everything over and over and over again. It gets monotonous.

[DragonDreamer]

Go back and reread the sentence I quoted.

I have known birds for many years, and I still would not move towards them without watching them. It matters not. Jon says his eyes never left him. Jon says "he means for Mormont to have a crown". It is absolutely obvious that the raven's eyes never left Jon, even when Mormont stroked him under the beak.

Well, that you but this is GRRM's world where many things that wouldn't happen in real life, happen. I disagree, the description is not of the bird it's of Momort and ties in with what follows. The conversation and the look where making Jon uncomfortable.

We're just going to agree to disagree.

[BearQueen87]

Oh my word. So much bird talk.

Just to throw this out there but does it matter (strictly) who is doing the looking? The very obviously warged raven is saying King and the only person in the room who fits the potential king criteria is Jon. Why would the very obviously warged raven be calling Mormont king? And bear in mind, this is BEFORE Robb's will. So again, why would the very obviously warged raven by calling Jon king at his stage of the game if he wasn't in some way a king?

[Alia of the knife]

I always thought both were in reference to Jon.

The raven says "king," and then Mormont is watching Jon- almost speculatively, (and of course conveniently dies afterwards). I guess I'd want to know just how much Mormont knew about Neds sister Lyanna.

Then Jorah conveniently screws up, (sorry BQ), and Mormont takes his place at the Wall.

(Incidently, I love birds too, and I have a crow that comes by everyday for cashews and ham).

I agree that a person's abilities do not depend on being legitimate or not.

I don't agree with people thinking that Rhaegar, who puts a lot of stock in prophecies so much that he feels that they need a third head for the 'dragon', would not take every measure at his disposal to make that child a dragon in every way he possibly could. He has two legitimate children already and would have had a third legitimate child by Elia if she had been able. It's not in either Rhaegar OR Lyanna's personalities to believe that either of them would want to be involved in an illicit affair. The preponderance of the evidence leads me to conclude that Jon is indeed legitimate.

While I personally agree with the bolded, it comes back to what Rhaegar would have believed.

I was speaking more to the issue of the likes of Daemon Blackfyre not being considered a "dragon," as I think he was considered more so by some than his half brother who was the king.

I personally think Rhaegar married Lyanna because he loved her, and at the TOJ, it was the only time he ever really lived, (hence his giving the tower the name he did), and in doing so, living for the first time, and not with his head in the books, then fulfilled prophesy.

Prophesy is not something that is manipulated into happening, but just does. In fact, the more one toys with prophesy, the more likely one is to have a vastly different outcome as we see in the loss of the first two heads, Rhaenys and Aegon.

If Rhaegar had lived, what then?

And I go back to the theory of Viseny/Aegon/Rhaenys triad. In prophesy, it has to be fulfilled to the letter. Everything matches up and passes the test of truths. If Rhaegar was manipulating prophesy to that extent, he should have named Rhaenys, "Visenya."

I think GRRM presents such themes in a cautionary light, because he said himself, prophesy and dabbling in such can have unintended consequences as would be the case of Rhaegar, because what he may have believed may have been wrong or misinterpreted.

In real history, prophesy also played a part in the lives of kings, and not just Christian prophesy, but a mix of pagan prophesies as well like the prophesies of Merlin, who was later considered a sage. It was said his prophesy later predicted the conflict between Stephen of Blois and Matilda, mother of Henry II, which is very reminscient of Aegon and Rhaenyra.

"This work not only launched Merlin as a character of Arthurian legend: it also created a genre of prophecy. A distinctively English style of political prophecy, which has been called Galfridian, was created, in which animals stand for particular political figures. Political prophecy in this style remained popular for at least 400 years. It was subversive, and the figure of the prophetic Merlin was strongly identified with it."

Rhaegar was an accomplished, intelligent man, but I'm not sure he was uniquely qualified to decipher prophesy, at least correctly, which is why I think that Jon as a love child, though legitimate does fulfill the prophesy rather than a planned, "prophetic" baby as perhaps was the case with Aegon.

[BearQueen87]

Then Jorah conveniently screws up, (sorry BQ), and Mormont takes his place at the Wall.

:bawl:

I personally think Rhaegar married Lyanna because he loved her, and at the TOJ, it was the only time he ever really lived, (hence his giving the tower the name he did), and in doing so, living for the first time, and not with his head in the books, then fulfilled prophesy.

Definitely agree that R loved L. I think sometimes we get too wrapped up in politics and prophecy and we forget what is, maybe, the most basic fact: Rhaegar loved her, and Lyanna loved him. Of course they got married. If there is not legal issue (sorry RumHam...let's play scrabble instead) then there is nothing stopping them.

[The Twinslayer]

Wrong! Read the Fing quote.

I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord.

"My Lord" and "you" are references to Mormont. The speaker is Jon, there is no one else present but Jon, Mormont and the raven. Clearly Jon refers to the raven as "he" in this sentence, and later "his eyes" must mean the raven since Mormont is otherwise engaged with stroking the bird.

Jon refers to the bird as "he" when speaking, but throughout the chapter, the narrator refers to the bird as "it." When the narrator says "his eyes" never left Jon, this clearly means Mormont.

[The Twinslayer]

Here is what you are missing from the quote. They say then or now. "Then" it might be fleeing. But "now" is it fleeing now? Then Viserys was not yet king--Aerys was still alive. So a reference to fleeing then makes sense. But he make a point of adding the words "or now." Why? Why would it still be fleeing to go to the king? It would not be. Thus, Viserys is not king.

The "now" means they are not going to run away from Ned and his friends. They just told him that the three of them alone would have changed the result at the Trident or prevented the Sack. Now, they are saying, if we could do all of that against an army, we aren't going to run away from 7 men.

[Han Snow]

Jon refers to the bird as "he" when speaking, but throughout the chapter, the narrator refers to the bird as "it." When the narrator says "his eyes" never left Jon, this clearly means Mormont.

Wrong. Next.

The "now" means they are not going to run away from Ned and his friends. They just told him that the three of them alone would have changed the result at the Trident or prevented the Sack. Now, they are saying, if we could do all of that against an army, we aren't going to run away from 7 men.

Possible.

[Alia of the knife]

Wait a sec.,aren't both the damn bird, (a.k.a., Bloodraven), and Mormont looking at Jon?

[The Twinslayer]

Oh my word. So much bird talk.

Just to throw this out there but does it matter (strictly) who is doing the looking? The very obviously warged raven is saying King and the only person in the room who fits the potential king criteria is Jon. Why would the very obviously warged raven be calling Mormont king? And bear in mind, this is BEFORE Robb's will. So again, why would the very obviously warged raven by calling Jon king at his stage of the game if he wasn't in some way a king?

I don't think it is calling anyone a king in that scene. It's just saying "king" like it sometimes says "corn."

Otherwise, what would be the point for this bird to call Jon "king" like that? Do you think Bloodraven was trying to tell Jon, or Mormont, about R+L = J? There is no way that either Jon or Mormont could figure it out just because the bird looked at Jon and said "king."

ETA: there is a better explanation for the Raven saying king. Mormont is telling a long winded story about Targaryens, great councils and Maester Armon. This is the build up to telling Jon that Robb is now a king. The Raven may be trying to tell Mormont to stop talking about ancient history and get to the point: Robb is now a king.

[MtnLion]

Wait a sec. aren't both the damn bird, (a.k.a., Bloodraven), and Mormont looking at Jon?

Well, as I pointed out, upthread, stroking or scratching a bird requires some attention to avoid startling the bird. "All the while" leaves Mormont out, because he must look away long enough to avoid startling the bird . . .

[The Twinslayer]

Wait a sec. aren't both the damn bird, (a.k.a., Bloodraven), and Mormont looking at Jon?

No. The bird first says king when it flies to Mormont. Looking at Mormont. Then it says king while strutting back and forth on Mormont's shoulder. Presumably, once while facing Mormont's head and once while facing the wall.

And the relevant quote says "his eyes" (Mormont's) never left Jon. Not "their eyes" or "its eyes." At this point, Mormont is multi tasking, because he is scratching the bird while staring at Jon. That makes Jon uncomfortable.

[sj4iy]

I was speaking more to the issue of the likes of Daemon Blackfyre not being considered a "dragon," as I think he was considered more so by some than his half brother who was the king.

I personally think Rhaegar married Lyanna because he loved her, and at the TOJ, it was the only time he ever really lived, (hence his giving the tower the name he did), and in doing so, living for the first time, and not with his head in the books, then fulfilled prophesy.

Prophesy is not something that is manipulated into happening, but just does. In fact, the more one toys with prophesy, the more likely one is to have a vastly different outcome as we see in the loss of the first two heads, Rhaenys and Aegon.

If Rhaegar had lived, what then?

And I go back to the theory of Viseny/Aegon/Rhaenys triad. In prophesy, it has to be fulfilled to the letter. Everything matches up and passes the test of truths. If Rhaegar was manipulating prophesy to that extent, he should have named Rhaenys, "Visenya."

I think GRRM presents such themes in a cautionary light, because he said himself, prophesy and dabbling in such can have unintended consequences as would be the case of Rhaegar, because what he may have believed may have been wrong or misinterpreted.

In real history, prophesy also played a part in the lives of kings, and not just Christian prophesy, but a mix of pagan prophesies as well like the prophesies of Merlin, who was later considered a sage. It was said his prophesy later predicted the conflict between Stephen of Blois and Matilda, mother of Henry II, which is very reminscient of Aegon and Rhaenyra.

"This work not only launched Merlin as a character of Arthurian legend: it also created a genre of prophecy. A distinctively English style of political prophecy, which has been called Galfridian, was created, in which animals stand for particular political figures. Political prophecy in this style remained popular for at least 400 years. It was subversive, and the figure of the prophetic Merlin was strongly identified with it."

Rhaegar was an accomplished, intelligent man, but I'm not sure he was uniquely qualified to decipher prophesy, at least correctly, which is why I think that Jon as a love child, though legitimate does fulfill the prophesy rather than a planned, "prophetic" baby as perhaps was the case with Aegon.

I don't believe prophecy can be manipulated, but Rhaegar did. He thought the prophecy applied to him at first, so he became a warrior. He then believed that Aegon was TPTWP, but that he needed a third head for the dragon. So to me, his actions are indicative of someone who believes that he can make a prophecy come true.

[sj4iy]

I don't think it is calling anyone a king in that scene. It's just saying "king" like it sometimes says "corn."

Otherwise, what would be the point for this bird to call Jon "king" like that? Do you think Bloodraven was trying to tell Jon, or Mormont, about R+L = J? There is no way that either Jon or Mormont could figure it out just because the bird looked at Jon and said "king."

The bird told Jon to 'burn' the wight.

The bird helped Jon get elected Lord Commander.

The bird even calls Jon "King Jon Snow" (his full name) after he has a dream about killing dead people while holding a flaming sword on top of the Wall.

The bird saying 'king' in this instance isn't the same as saying "corn". The bird is clearly being warged by someone who is helping Jon.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I don't believe prophecy can be manipulated, but Rhaegar did. He thought the prophecy applied to him at first, so he became a warrior. He then believed that Aegon was TPTWP, but that he needed a third head for the dragon. So to me, his actions are indicative of someone who believes that he can make a prophecy come true.

I would put the bolded point a slightly different way. I would say that Rhaegar believed he had an obligation to follow the dictates of the prophecy. He interpreted the prophecy to mean that he would be father to the three heads of the dragon--so he believed he had a sacred duty to have three children. So while I agree with your point, I don't think it is so much of him believing he could make it come true as feeling obligated to following the dictates of his understanding of the prophecy as a sacred duty.

[Alia of the knife]

The bird told Jon to 'burn' the wight.

The bird helped Jon get elected Lord Commander.

The bird even calls Jon "King Jon Snow" (his full name) after he has a dream about killing dead people while holding a flaming sword on top of the Wall.

The bird saying 'king' in this instance isn't the same as saying "corn". The bird is clearly being warged by someone who is helping Jon.

Exactly, and can I please get this bird as my life coach?

[sj4iy]

I would put the bolded point a slightly different way. I would say that Rhaegar believed he had an obligation to follow the dictates of the prophecy. He interpreted the prophecy to mean that he would be father to the three heads of the dragon--so he believed he had a sacred duty to have three children. So while I agree with your point, I don't think it is so much of him believing he could make it come true as feeling obligated to following the dictates of his understanding of the prophecy as a sacred duty.

Yeah, I wasn't meaning that Rhaegar was manipulating the prophecies because of his own ego...I meant it more that he felt it his obligation to do so. But either way, he seems to think that his actions CAN affect how the prophecy turns out.

[sj4iy]

Exactly, and can I please get this bird as my life coach?

All it would ever scream at me would be "Clean! Clean!" or "Exercise! Exercise!"

XD

[UnmaskedLurker]

Yeah, I wasn't meaning that Rhaegar was manipulating the prophecies because of his own ego...I meant it more that he felt it his obligation to do so. But either way, he seems to think that his actions CAN affect how the prophecy turns out.

Yes, he thinks that he needs to interpret the prophecy and then follow what it is telling him to do, so he has to act to make sure the prophecy is fulfilled. Which obviously is nuts--the prophecy will happen because it has been foreseen to happen. Rhaegar just needs to go about his business and it will happen. But Rhaegar does not see it that way and thinks he needs to take specific action to make sure he has followed the dictates of the prophecy to make sure it happens. Otherwise, he thinks the world could be doomed and he has been charged with the sole responsibility to make sure the prophecy is fulfilled. Quite a burden he puts on himself--and to no avail (although I suppose it does result in Jon who is TPTPW, so we have that).