R+L=J v.112

[zennyrpg]

Right, that's why you look at the rest of the sentence rather than just the pronoun agreement to determine the antecedent. Back to that simple question: what is the "but" for?

Not sure you need another opinion, but I could read the sentence either way. The "but" makes sense to me either way:

"Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while Mormont's eyes never left Jon Snow."

"Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while the raven's eyes never left Jon Snow."

Either way, mormont and the raven are interacting, but one clearly cares more about what Jon is doing.

[Ygrain]

“I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord.”

“The realm has three kings already, and that’s two too many for my liking.” Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow.

It made him feel odd. “My lord, why have you told me this, about Maester Aemon?”

“Must I have a reason?” Mormont shifted in his seat, frowning. “Your brother Robb has been crowned King in the North. You and Aemon have that in common. A king for a brother.”

“And this too,” said Jon. “A vow.”

The Old Bear gave a loud snort, and the raven took flight, flapping in a circle about the room. “Give me a man for every vow I’ve seen broken and the Wall will never lack for defenders.”

“I’ve always known that Robb would be Lord of Winterfell.”

Mormont gave a whistle, and the bird flew to him again and settled on his arm. “A lord’s one thing, a king’s another.” He offered the raven a handful of corn from his pocket. “They will garb your brother Robb in silks, satins, and velvets of a hundred different colors, while you live and die in black ringmail. He will wed some beautiful princess and father sons on her. You’ll have no wife, nor will you ever hold a child of your own blood in your arms. Robb will rule, you will serve. Men will call you a crow. Him they’ll call Your Grace. Singers will praise every little thing he does, while your greatest deeds all go unsung. Tell me that none of this troubles you, Jon . . . and I’ll name you a liar, and know I have the truth of it.”

Jon drew himself up, taut as a bowstring. “And if it did trouble me, what might I do, bastard as I am?”

“What will you do?” Mormont asked. “Bastard as you are?”

“Be troubled,” said Jon, “and keep my vows.”

Sorry for the long quote but I believe that the context is needed here. Mormont tells Jon a long piece of history, which is interesting enough for Jon to ask questions but he doesn't see what it relates to. Then, something makes him feel odd about it and he starts wondering whether there is a meaning to it, after all. The thing that makes him wonder is the contrast between the seemingly unimportant issue and the intent stare, as if Mormont was assessing him or expecting him to do something. It's Mormont's actions that play a role here, not the raven's. The raven croaks and walks and flies, is petted and fed, but this is just a background. They don't really pay attention to it, only as a joke. - BTW, the raven is referenced as "he" only in direct speech, and in the narration it is "it".

[IceFire125]

Funny enough, when I read that sentence back then, I never thought much about it until ADWD prologue. When Varamyr looked at Ghost and said there is a second life worthy of a king.

BOOM!

My mind revert back to that Jon-Mormont-Raven scene in ACOK.

Because the way it was presented out could be one of 2 things:

1. This was the first time Mormont heard the word 'King' so explicitly from his raven, leading to his eyes never leaving Jon.

2. This was the first time Mormont and Jon (but more impact to the former) heard the word 'King' so explicitly from his raven, leading to the raven's eyes never leaving Jon.

In my opinion, both leave with the daunting curiosity in pointing Jon is of royal blood even more prominent.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Which brings me to the point about Aegon meeting more of the criteria. Remember that Rhaegar is dead by the time Jon is born so Rhaegar does not live long enough to see whether the additional criteria are met with respect to Jon. But--AT A MINIMUM--Rhaegar would hedge his bets. Even if he was not certain that Jon would be TPTWP, having a child with Lyanna would have to make Rhaegar consider the possibility (especially given the nature of the "pact"). So the one aspect of the prophecy that Rhaegar really could control (as he does not control comets and salt and smoke) is making sure this child, if a boy, would be a prince. Now if Rhaegar had lived and Jon had been born a girl or if none of the other criteria relevant to being TPTWP came true, perhaps Rhaegar would go back to believing Aegon must be TPTWP. But at the relevant point in time, when Rhaegar is deciding whether it is important to marry Lyanna, one of the considerations would be the realization that a marriage to Lyanna would appear to mirror the "pact" and thus suggest that their child (and not Aegon) likely would be TPTWP (pending looking at whether the additional criteria were met).

So to answer your specific questions--personally, I think that as soon as he thought he was going to have a child with Lyanna, he probably started to make the connection to the pact and realize the importance of marriage. We cannot know for sure, but logically, I think whatever time it took to decide to run off with Lyanna was more than enough time to make the connection regarding the pact.

As to your question about "fulfilling the criteria" I think I tried to answer already but I will elaborate a little. He would have controlled one criteria by marrying Lyanna to ensure a prince if a boy is born. He could not have Jon born on Dragonstone (smoke/salt) because he had to go into hiding and I doubt they could hide on Dragonstone. But we don't know what Rhaegar might have done to try to control the "smoke and fire" and as noted above, he cannot control comets or other celestial happenings. But he already decided that he mistook the signs once in regard to himself, so that is a clue that he would consider the possibility (perhaps likelihood) that he did it again with Aegon and prepare to watch for the clues in regard to Jon. It is not fair to compare the clues for someone already born with someone not yet born when most of clues are things that relate to the situation surrounding the birth (or conception--which at the time for a decision about marriage also would not have occurred yet). But we know that meeting the clues are not enough to ensure that Rhaegar would not change his mind, as he already did that once from himself (who seemed to meet the clues) to Aegon (who also seemed to meet the clues).

So I admit it is possible that he was not certain that Jon would be TPTWP, but at a minimum, it seems Rhaegar would have to suspect that he might be and thus would want to control the one thing he really had control over--marrying Lyanna to make Jon a prince. And at the time he had to make that decision whether to marry Lyanna it would not have been possible to know whether the other criteria would be met because at that time Jon would not have been born, or even yet conceived. So the pact would put the idea in Rhaegar's head of the likelihood that Jon would be TPTWP and the first step to fulfilling the criteria would be the marry Lyanna. We really have no idea what other step Rhaegar might have taken to fulfill the other criteria--and GRRM certainly would not have told us yet as that would give too much away.

But Rhaegar can control more than just whether the child will be trueborn or bastard born. He can control the "admidst smoke and salt" part. I strongly suspect that this is why both Rhaenys and Aegon were born on Dragonstone.

Dragonstone was Rhaegar's own seat, they were his people who were living there, so why wouldn't he have been able to transport Lyanna there while he himself returned to KL? Rhaegar had three KG available, and he could have send anyone of them with Lyanna for protection.

I just have trouble believing that Rhaegar would stop looking at all the criteria and descriptions about the promised prince he would have found in the scrolls and all such, and put so much importance on the name of a certain pact, which was made only very recently in history, about two people who, should the pact have been executed, would have gone on to have a child which wouldn't have been named Targaryen, but Stark.

[Mithras]

So much raven talk and I am tempted to refer to this.

[Consigliere]

I think they did nothing wrong by staying there following Rhaegar's orders. It doesn't seem to be the case that the kingsguard must abandon conflicting orders in favor of protecting the king. I'm not sure exactly what they knew about Viserys' status but if they knew he was on Dragonstone or with Darry then they knew he wasn't in imminent danger. It wouldn't be very practical to seek Viserys out anyway. It's possible that all or some of the three kingsguard knew the Targaryens were done.

I'm curious. If Rhaeger ordered them to stay at the tower would they now remain there indefinitely? At the end of the day - going on your assumption the R and L were not married - the KG had one of three choices: 1) Remain at the ToJ and guard Rhaegars mistress and bastard 2) Try and find a way to get to the King on DS or 3) Bend the knee to Robert. A fourth option is that R and L were married and the king was in the tower therefore the KG chose to remain there thus fulfilling their primary duty. Which one of these seems more likely taking into consideration the ToJ dream and bearing in mind that the honourable Ned Stark has alot of respect for these men?

I especially disagree with the bolded portion. From Barristans POV we know that the first and foremost duty of a KG is protecting the king. From Jaime's POV we know that on the rare occasions when all the white swords meet, the safety of the king must be ensured before the meeting commences. To me the text makes it quite clear that the protection of the king takes precedence over any other contradictory orders.

On the issue of polygamy: There is exactly zero evidence to support that polygamy is illegal. Now I am fully prepared to alter my stance should new info come to light but based on all the published material to date, there isn't even a suggestion that polygamy was outlawed. We know that when Aegon I married both Rhaenys and Visenya it was considered unusual suggesting that polygamy was not common practice amongst the Targaryens. Therefore there being no known polygamous unions post Maegor is indicative of nothing. Idk, it just seems absurd to me that The Faith would outlaw polygamy but allow the incest to continue.

[UnmaskedLurker]

But Rhaegar can control more than just whether the child will be trueborn or bastard born. He can control the "admidst smoke and salt" part. I strongly suspect that this is why both Rhaenys and Aegon were born on Dragonstone.

Dragonstone was Rhaegar's own seat, they were his people who were living there, so why wouldn't he have been able to transport Lyanna there while he himself returned to KL? Rhaegar had three KG available, and he could have send anyone of them with Lyanna for protection.

I just have trouble believing that Rhaegar would stop looking at all the criteria and descriptions about the promised prince he would have found in the scrolls and all such, and put so much importance on the name of a certain pact, which was made only very recently in history, about two people who, should the pact have been executed, would have gone on to have a child which wouldn't have been named Targaryen, but Stark.

Rhaegar was hiding from everyone including his father--perhaps especially his father. I do not believe that he could have hidden from his father on Dragonstone. Maybe Rhaegar had other plans to ensure that Jon would be born amidst smoke and salt. Maybe he had a pile of wood and a pile of salt prepared in the corner of the tower to be lit as Lyanna went into labor and one of the servants was in charge of using it to send salty smoke signals over to where Lyanna was given birth. I am, of course, being a bit sarcastic--but we simply have no information whether Rhaegar took steps, and there is zero chance that GRRM would inform us at this point of any steps Rhaegar would have taken in this regard. We know he did not go to Dragonstone, but we don't know if he thought of another way to cause the signs to come true. So again, absence of evidence cannot be viewed as evidence of absence.

As to the "pact that shall not be named" (at least until 11/27--or if we take this discussion over to the sub-forum where it really belongs), yes it was relatively recent. So, what? No one is claiming that the pact was named by anyone involved in telling the prophecy. The Targs and the Starks did not even live on the same continent until relatively recently in Planetos history. The point of the pact is that the way it was named just cannot be a coincidence. It shows what elements people associated with the houses. So once Rhaegar considered having a child with Lyanna (something he would not have considered a possibility until some time after he was told that Elia could not have any more children), the connection between the "pact that shall not be named" and the song -- which Rhaegar is the only character in the series so far to say out loud -- is too obviously connected to be ignored by someone like Rhaegar.

I will concede that maybe Rhaegar was not 100% sure that Jon (I will use "Jon" as short-hand for the child between R&L, as of course R would not have thought of the unborn child as "Jon") would be TPTWP. Maybe he was going to keep his eyes open to look for a comet or other similar celestial sign. But what I believe is very highly likely is that Rhaegar considered that it was distinctly possible that Jon would be TPTWP. At a minimum, just in case Jon might be TPTWP, Rhaegar would have to take every precaution to increase the likelihood that all of the criteria would be met -- one of them being making sure Jon would be a Prince. We know that Rhaegar changed his mind once on who would be TPTWP. For someone who is able to change his mind on new evidence, why is it so hard to believe that he could change his mind again -- or at least question whether he needed to consider changing his mind again? It is not necessary for Rhaegar to be certain that Jon would be TPTWP to make marrying Lyanna important -- only that Rhaegar considered it to be a distinct possibility. Why are you so reluctant to believe that Rhaegar would have thought it to be a distinct possibility--especially given that he would have to make the decision to marry Lyanna before he could see whether any of the other signs came true for Jon (because the wedding would take place before conception or birth)?

Now even if Rhaegar only thought Jon would be the third head and never considered him to be TPTWP, Rhaegar would have enough reason to marry Lyanna for reasons others have expressed quite well -- primarily that Rhaegar would view the term "dragon" as referring primarily to a royal Targaryen with Targaryen as the person's last name -- in other words, not a bastard. A bastard can be a dragonseed--and ride a dragon--but I don't think Rhaegar would view that person as a full dragon. Now, I think Rhaegar was wrong, but the point is that Rhaegar likely believed that -- or at a minimum, would not want to take a chance whether being a dragon required being a full "Targaryen".

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord.

The realm has three kings already, and thats two too many for my liking. Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow.

It made him feel odd. My lord, why have you told me this, about Maester Aemon?

Must I have a reason? Mormont shifted in his seat, frowning. Your brother Robb has been crowned King in the North. You and Aemon have that in common. A king for a brother.

And this too, said Jon. A vow.

The Old Bear gave a loud snort, and the raven took flight, flapping in a circle about the room. Give me a man for every vow Ive seen broken and the Wall will never lack for defenders.

Ive always known that Robb would be Lord of Winterfell.

Mormont gave a whistle, and the bird flew to him again and settled on his arm. A lords one thing, a kings another. He offered the raven a handful of corn from his pocket. They will garb your brother Robb in silks, satins, and velvets of a hundred different colors, while you live and die in black ringmail. He will wed some beautiful princess and father sons on her. Youll have no wife, nor will you ever hold a child of your own blood in your arms. Robb will rule, you will serve. Men will call you a crow. Him theyll call Your Grace. Singers will praise every little thing he does, while your greatest deeds all go unsung. Tell me that none of this troubles you, Jon . . . and Ill name you a liar, and know I have the truth of it.

Jon drew himself up, taut as a bowstring. And if it did trouble me, what might I do, bastard as I am?

What will you do? Mormont asked. Bastard as you are?

Be troubled, said Jon, and keep my vows.

Sorry for the long quote but I believe that the context is needed here. Mormont tells Jon a long piece of history, which is interesting enough for Jon to ask questions but he doesn't see what it relates to. Then, something makes him feel odd about it and he starts wondering whether there is a meaning to it, after all. The thing that makes him wonder is the contrast between the seemingly unimportant issue and the intent stare, as if Mormont was assessing him or expecting him to do something. It's Mormont's actions that play a role here, not the raven's. The raven croaks and walks and flies, is petted and fed, but this is just a background. They don't really pay attention to it, only as a joke. - BTW, the raven is referenced as "he" only in direct speech, and in the narration it is "it".

Good to see it in full context and :agree:

[Alia of the knife]

Going back to prophesy, and the difference between the consequences of manipulation of prophesy and allowing fate to have is way.

There is the notion that Rhaegar does certain things to in order to fulfill prophesy because he believes he must bring it about, such as the location of birth, following pertinent signs etc., but here are the tricky misc. aspects of such pursuits that I believe that GRRM alludes to.

- The wife he has technically is as much "fire" as he is given their sign is the sun with spear, (very similar to the Aztec Sun god).

- The woman he chooses is "ice" to his fire, but she is also a young virgin maid with no demonstrated ability to safely deliver children herself.

- A comet was seen the night of Aegons conception, but it was over KL, not Dragonstone where Shireen, (technically a dragon also), with greyscale was born.

- Later there is the loss of the first "two heads."

- Rhaegar keeps changing his mind.

- Rhaegars own life is lost.

- In regards to Dany, her own prophesised child died.

How fate and prophesy actually play out.

- Rhaegar meets Lyanna, and becomes intrigued with her, but at this point he is a faithful, dutiful husband who has no reason to believe that his wife cannot give him his children.

- Aegon in born, but Rhaegar finds out that Elia will bear him no more children. Lyanna is near and in his mind, he starts putting the pieces of this prophesy together with the pact of Ice and Fire and it is justified in his mind as Elia can no longer bear him children, so he reads into this fate, (the fact that she is also beautiful and fiery as ice has its own burn also helps). And the time of her own wedding will likely be soon after Brandons, so she will be completely be out of bounds for him.

- They go to the TOJ, and their love comes to fruition, marrying her and bedding her. They live and love, and soon a boy, not a girl, is conceived.

- Salt and Tears- A couple of interesting things about salt:

"Marriage ceremonies used to last for up to 10 days. They came together every day for a half-hour to listen and repeat the instructions of the priest. After 10 days the groom promised to love and cherish his wife forever, the bride promises to accept the husband in her life, to love and serve him as her Lord. Then salt is brought in and they partake of the Covenant of Salt. An example of what the minister might say while administering the salt covenant is:

Because Groom and Bride desire to seal this commitment between each other and God, they are giving each other permission to hold each other accountable to the promises made here today. Because they want to preserve these promises, they will now partake of the Covenant of Salt.

Salt as a preservative:

"Salt has been used as a preservative since ancient times, to protect food against bacteria, mold, and spoiling. "

I imagine that somewhere in the TOJ, food was being prepared and kept in anticipation of a long stay.

- A red star bleeding: Ser Arthur Dayne fell at the TOJ.

- Tears: Lyanna's tears from pain and grief.

- The Promised Prince: Jon's life was saved with a promise.

All the ingredients of the prophesy, but manifested in the most subtle, and more importantly, the most unexpected ways.

And of course this all depends upon whether it is the literal birth of this prince, or whether it is a rebirth.

"Kill the boy, and let the man be born."

I imagine when Jon wakes up, that naive boy will be gone, and something else will be there in its place.

[UVA]

Oh my word. So much bird talk.

Just to throw this out there but does it matter (strictly) who is doing the looking? The very obviously warged raven is saying King and the only person in the room who fits the potential king criteria is Jon. Why would the very obviously warged raven be calling Mormont king? And bear in mind, this is BEFORE Robb's will. So again, why would the very obviously warged raven by calling Jon king at his stage of the game if he wasn't in some way a king?

Not to beat a dead horse, but, yea exactly. The fact that the reference/clue to legit Jon Targ is there is not exactly dependent on the raven staring at Jon (which I don't think it was.) I took the sentence to indicate that Mormont was pensive about the raven's curious choice of words in Jon's presence, and this coupled, with the king/royal motif embedded throughout jon's arc, validates the r+l=j implication in this passage.

[Kingmonkey]

I will concede that maybe Rhaegar was not 100% sure that Jon (I will use "Jon" as short-hand for the child between R&L, as of course R would not have thought of the unborn child as "Jon") would be TPTWP. Maybe he was going to keep his eyes open to look for a comet or other similar celestial sign. But what I believe is very highly likely is that Rhaegar considered that it was distinctly possible that Jon would be TPTWP.

(Much snippage, but getting to the meat)

It bothers me that Aegon had been born under a comet and yet Rhaegar would then decide that another prince who had no comet to mark his birth would be TPTWP. So here's a thought.

We know from Maester Aemon's talk that the "Prince" part may be wrong, because dragons have no gender. This indicates that the original wording is about a dragon rather than a prince. Of course, Targaryen princes are dragons -- except that the dragon must have three heads. Perhaps Rhaegar came to believe that TPTWP was not one Targaryen but three sibling Targaryens?

Aegon was the prince conceived under the bleeding star, but how is his the Song of Ice and Fire, as Rhaegar at first assumed? Perhaps the Pact of Ice and Fire was a clue to Rhaegar that there was a missing part of the equation, and that Aegon could fulfil the bleeding star part, while a different head of the dragon could fulfil the ice and fire part? Is it possible that Rhaenys was born on Dragonstone but Aegon not, making her potentially the salt and smoke head?

[(f)Aegon (f)orever]

It bothers me that Aegon had been born under a comet and yet Rhaegar would then decide that another prince who had no comet to mark his birth would be TPTWP. So here's a thought.

We know from Maester Aemon's talk that the "Prince" part may be wrong, because dragons have no gender. This indicates that the original wording is about a dragon rather than a prince. Of course, Targaryen princes are dragons -- except that the dragon must have three heads. Perhaps Rhaegar came to believe that TPTWP was not one Targaryen but three sibling Targaryens?

Aegon was the prince conceived under the bleeding star, but how is his the Song of Ice and Fire, as Rhaegar at first assumed? Perhaps the Pact of Ice and Fire was a clue to Rhaegar that there was a missing part of the equation, and that Aegon could fulfil the bleeding star part, while a different head of the dragon could fulfil the ice and fire part? Is it possible that Rhaenys was born on Dragonstone but Aegon not, making her potentially the salt and smoke head?

Going off of this, that would make Dany the salt and smoke head of the dragon now then? With (f)Aegon still being the one that was born under the comet, Dany being the one born of salt and smoke, and Jon being the whatever is necessary to the "ice" portion of the soiaf.

[Kingmonkey]

Going off of this, that would make Dany the salt and smoke head of the dragon now then? With (f)Aegon still being the one that was born under the comet, Dany being the one born of salt and smoke, and Jon being the whatever is necessary to the "ice" portion of the soiaf.

Quite possibly. Or the recent comet might be the relevant one, and it's to do with a rebirth -- as with smoke and salt at Dany's fire, or Jon's tears and breath like smoke at his attempted assassination. It could all apply to one of them after all, or to someone else entirely, at this point. Or the prophecy might be so misunderstood that all of this is highly misleading.

There's an interesting question of what Rhaegar was up to, and how he interpreted the prophecies. This idea does at least provide some logic to why he might think Aegon was not enough to fulfil the prophecy after all, and an ice & fire prince might be needed too. I'm trying to make sense of Rheagar's actions rather than argue that his interpretation of the prophecy was actually correct. Honestly though it's a thought that just occurred to me, and I haven't spent any time trying to look for evidence.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Quite possibly. Or the recent comet might be the relevant one, and it's to do with a rebirth -- as with smoke and salt at Dany's fire, or Jon's tears and breath like smoke at his attempted assassination. It could all apply to one of them after all, or to someone else entirely, at this point. Or the prophecy might be so misunderstood that all of this is highly misleading.

There's an interesting question of what Rhaegar was up to, and how he interpreted the prophecies. This idea does at least provide some logic to why he might think Aegon was not enough to fulfil the prophecy after all, and an ice & fire prince might be needed too. I'm trying to make sense of Rheagar's actions rather than argue that his interpretation of the prophecy was actually correct. Honestly though it's a thought that just occurred to me, and I haven't spent any time trying to look for evidence.

All of these thoughts are interesting and possible. The real point is the no matter which alternative theory one uses, there is strong incentive for Rhaegar to want to be married to Lyanna so that Jon would be a full-Dragon and a Prince. What is means for who really is TPTWP and who are the three heads is a different question. I believe Jon is TPTWP and Jon, Dany and Tyrion are the three heads. But that is really a different discussion.

[The Twinslayer]

We know from Maester Aemon's talk that the "Prince" part may be wrong, because dragons have no gender. This indicates that the original wording is about a dragon rather than a prince. Of course, Targaryen princes are dragons -- except that the dragon must have three heads. Perhaps Rhaegar came to believe that TPTWP was not one Targaryen but three sibling Targaryens?

I am also not sure that Rhaegar used the term "prince" to refer to someone who is "royal" at all. After all, Aegon the Dragon was a dragon before he was King Aegon the Conqueror. Surely, Rhaegar would have known that.

[RumHam]

Love the pronoun debate. I think we all learned something today.

My 'strict criteria' is 'evidence from the text'. I don't make assumptions without something to base it on in the first place. There is absolutely nothing in 5 books, an encyclopedia, a bunch of short stories and even a tv show that ever hints at polygamy being illegal in Westeros.

Other than the fact that nobody has done it since Maegor, the conciliation with the Faith, and Westeros being united under one set of laws. Also we have a couple of examples where it's made clear that people, even Targaryens, feel their current spouse stands in the way of them taking another.

The only character whose actions mean anything at all in this situation is Rhaegar...nobody else. If Rhaegar felt the risk was an acceptable one, then there is absolutely nothing at all stopping him from marrying Lyanna. He doesn't need the permission of the High Septon or his father or Dorne or anyone. He just needs to smooth things over when he returns. Growing up I wasn't allowed to leave the house if my parents weren't home...but I was over at my friends' houses almost everyday anyway. Why? Because I would rather deal with the consequences of my actions afterwards than not do what I wanted.

I understand the point you are trying to make but come on that's a weak comparison. Are you a princess? Was your dad clinically insane and constantly threatening to disinherit you? Did he burn people alive who displeased him? Do you live in medieval Europe?

Your argument that he wouldn't do something that is considered 'wrong' is completely undermined by the fact that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna in the first place. How is marrying her any 'worse' in the eyes of Westeros than running off with her was in the first place? It's nonsense. If Rhaegar went that far to be with her, then I don't see what is physically stopping him from marrying if he thinks it's necessary.

I never said Rhaegar wouldn't possibly do anything morally or legally wrong. I just said that marrying her would have been problematic had he come out on top and possibly illegal. Yes, if he'd abducted her the abduction was illegal also. But we don't really think he abducted her do we. Even if he had, when he lost he'd have to give her back. There's no reason to think the marriage would stand if Rhaegar and Lyanna survived but the rebels won. If they survived and Rhaegar won, you still have to deal with the Aerys issue. I honestly have no idea what would have gone down there. I like the idea of Rhaegar killing Robert, and then telling the survivors that Aerys does suck, and leading them down to Kings Landing. (I'm assuming Rhaegar had no idea about the wildfire.)

And Rhaegar has supporters of his own, as well. It's not as easy as "Oh, if Aerys and the High Septon say no, Rhaegar can't do it". He's the Crown Prince. He's an accomplished and charismatic leader. And he's not crazy. People may not like his actions with Lyanna, but that is small potatoes compared to Aerys murdering people.

I never said it would be easy, but already being installed as king makes it easier. I'd bet that the main two obstacles that stopped Aerys from disinheriting him were the commoners and Dorne. All Aerys has to do is spin things to the masses, Dorne would already be feeling slighted. I'm not saying it's guaranteed to work, but that doesn't matter. What matters is what Aerys thinks.

You act as if foreshadowing can't be obvious and picked up beforehand. That's not true at all. Martin is purposely dropping hints for those who pay attention- he's even said he is. You can't disregard everything as 'well, you can't be sure!' when there is quite a lot supporting it.

I just prefer not to use possible foreshadowing as evidence because of the ambiguity. Like with the king thing you mentioned, you take it as foreshadowing his parents were married where most people would just take it as foreshadowing that he would become king.

Yandel had Pycelle's first hand account, to be sure. He was also writing a book for the new King, who was married to the woman whose family had Aerys' heir butchered.

Since it would have been only a matter of days, I suppose it is possible that Yandel was trying to keep the focus off of Aegon's brutal murder this way..?

Doesn't that sorta draw more attention to it? Wouldn't saying nothing at all about who Aerys' heir is at that point be be a better way of accomplishing that goal? Also it just makes sense when you think about it. Aerys distrusted the Dornish, thought his grandchildren smelled Dornish. He was convinced the Dornish must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident. Aegon was an infant. Aerys knew there was a good chance he and the rest of the city would burn by wildfire. So why wouldn't he name Viserys heir before sending him to safety?

But more interestingly, why are people trying so hard to explain this little factoid away?

I'm curious. If Rhaeger ordered them to stay at the tower would they now remain there indefinitely? At the end of the day - going on your assumption the R and L were not married - the KG had one of three choices: 1) Remain at the ToJ and guard Rhaegars mistress and bastard 2) Try and find a way to get to the King on DS or 3) Bend the knee to Robert. A fourth option is that R and L were married and the king was in the tower therefore the KG chose to remain there thus fulfilling their primary duty. Which one of these seems more likely taking into consideration the ToJ dream and bearing in mind that the honourable Ned Stark has alot of respect for these men?

Even if they were married, that does not automatically make Jon king. That's not the Kingsguard's call. We're probably in great council territory at that point (especially since Viserys was the mad-man's heir.) As it happens Robert, Jon and Ned had convened a...different sort of great council. They decided not to bend their knees and do die with honor, following their last hopeless order. This is why Ned has such respect for them, they guarded his sister to the death when they knew it was hopeless. Your fourth option doesn't quite work for me. Are you really the king if nobody knows it? without a coronation / recognition by the people and the High Septon? When TWO other people have crowned themselves (or are preparing to) and one of them is the direct legal heir to your family?

[sj4iy]

I am also not sure that Rhaegar used the term "prince" to refer to someone who is "royal" at all. After all, Aegon the Dragon was a dragon before he was King Aegon the Conqueror. Surely, Rhaegar would have known that.

Except for the fact that:

1. He thought it was him at first

2. He thought it was his son next

3. He knew that TPTWP would come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella

All of this points to the fact that Rhaegar would believe that TPTWP would be an actual Prince.

[Consigliere]

Even if they were married, that does not automatically make Jon king. That's not the Kingsguard's call. We're probably in great council territory at that point (especially since Viserys was the mad-man's heir.) As it happens Robert, Jon and Ned had convened a...different sort of great council. They decided not to bend their knees and do die with honor, following their last hopeless order. This is why Ned has such respect for them, they guarded his sister to the death when they knew it was hopeless. Your fourth option doesn't quite work for me. Are you really the king if nobody knows it? without a coronation / recognition by the people and the High Septon? When TWO other people have crowned themselves (or are preparing to) and one of them is the direct legal heir to your family?

Tommen has not received the blessing of the HS and that does not prevent him from being king. At the end of the day the only thing that matters is what the 3 KG believed at the time. Taking into account Ned's admiration for them, the ToJ dream as well as Jaime and Barristans PoV's with regards to the KG and their duties, the 4th option I presented actually requires the least number of assumptions.

[tongji86]

Going back to prophesy, and the difference between the consequences of manipulation of prophesy and allowing fate to have is way.

There is the notion that Rhaegar does certain things to in order to fulfill prophesy because he believes he must bring it about, such as the location of birth, following pertinent signs etc., but here are the tricky misc. aspects of such pursuits that I believe that GRRM alludes to.

- The wife he has technically is as much "fire" as he is given their sign is the sun with spear, (very similar to the Aztec Sun god).

- The woman he chooses is "ice" to his fire, but she is also a young virgin maid with no demonstrated ability to safely deliver children herself.

- A comet was seen the night of Aegons conception, but it was over KL, not Dragonstone where Shireen, (technically a dragon also), with greyscale was born.

- Later there is the loss of the first "two heads."

- Rhaegar keeps changing his mind.

- Rhaegars own life is lost.

- In regards to Dany, her own prophesised child died.

How fate and prophesy actually play out.

- Rhaegar meets Lyanna, and becomes intrigued with her, but at this point he is a faithful, dutiful husband who has no reason to believe that his wife cannot give him his children.

- Aegon in born, but Rhaegar finds out that Elia will bear him no more children. Lyanna is near and in his mind, he starts putting the pieces of this prophesy together with the pact of Ice and Fire and it is justified in his mind as Elia can no longer bear him children, so he reads into this fate, (the fact that she is also beautiful and fiery as ice has its own burn also helps). And the time of her own wedding will likely be soon after Brandons, so she will be completely be out of bounds for him.

- They go to the TOJ, and their love comes to fruition, marrying her and bedding her. They live and love, and soon a boy, not a girl, is conceived.

- Salt and Tears- A couple of interesting things about salt:

"Marriage ceremonies used to last for up to 10 days. They came together every day for a half-hour to listen and repeat the instructions of the priest. After 10 days the groom promised to love and cherish his wife forever, the bride promises to accept the husband in her life, to love and serve him as her Lord. Then salt is brought in and they partake of the Covenant of Salt. An example of what the minister might say while administering the salt covenant is:

Because Groom and Bride desire to seal this commitment between each other and God, they are giving each other permission to hold each other accountable to the promises made here today. Because they want to preserve these promises, they will now partake of the Covenant of Salt.

Salt as a preservative:

"Salt has been used as a preservative since ancient times, to protect food against bacteria, mold, and spoiling. "

I imagine that somewhere in the TOJ, food was being prepared and kept in anticipation of a long stay.

- A red star bleeding: Ser Arthur Dayne fell at the TOJ.

- Tears: Lyanna's tears from pain and grief.

- The Promised Prince: Jon's life was saved with a promise.

All the ingredients of the prophesy, but manifested in the most subtle, and more importantly, the most unexpected ways.

And of course this all depends upon whether it is the literal birth of this prince, or whether it is a rebirth.

"Kill the boy, and let the man be born."

I imagine when Jon wakes up, that naive boy will be gone, and something else will be there in its place.

Wow, best analysis I have read regarding Jon.

The only missing part to the public is the salt (marriage).

I wonder the smoke is the destruction of TOJ. Maybe this is Lyanna's wish for Ned also, other than the "promise me" part.

[The Twinslayer]

Except for the fact that:

1. He thought it was him at first

2. He thought it was his son next

3. He knew that TPTWP would come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella

All of this points to the fact that Rhaegar would believe that TPTWP would be an actual Prince.

All of this is consitent with the idea that the PWWP will be a dragon, and that a dragon need not be trueborn.

And for the third, I'd say he "thought" the PWWP would come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella because that is what a woods witch said. That does not mean the woods witch got it right.

Which fits in neatly with the earlier discussion about how foolish it is to try to make the prophecies come true. A woods witch said that the PWWP would come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. So Aerys and Rhaella were forced to marry in order to try and make the prophecy come true. At some point, we'll find out whether she was right.