addicted to snow Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 What did he become King of? There was no throne for Targs, only Big Bob. The KG knew this. How is a king a king without a land to rule, a people to rule, a crown or throne? Same goes for Jon if he was a legitimate son of Rhaegar. Agreed, the raven was more likely referencing Jon Snow's future as the Night's King... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 We see the KG guarding Tommen before he's declared "King". We see them guarding Joffrey before HE'S declared king. Being declared king is obviously not the beginning of the KG's duty, then. The three KG would know that Jon's the rightful heir over Viserys, and they would guard him because that's their duty. Do you think they were possibly ordered to guard these individuals that you reference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 You guys are all wasting your time replying to him, I hope you realize. I was dumb too, once. Smart enough not to take up arguments you can't win... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost's Shadow Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 At least he is a relatively amusing and harmless troll. There are others who will remain nameless <<caugh, SOD, caugh>> who make my head spin and I cannot read anything he writes any more. Since that 'harmless troll' once insinuated that I wanted Jon Snow to shoot his spunk up my face and nothing was done about it, nor did he respond back to me when I asked for an explanation, in fact he just disappeared off the thread all together, I don't see how he is amusing. PS: In light of this, it's funny how he seems to be speaking of arrogance, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 And to go off on this, Viserys doesn't say that he was named heir, but he DOES say (often and loudly) that the kingdom is his by rights, that his throne was stolen. So he seems to have an idea that he is the heir, either upon the death of Aerys and Aegon (and obviously not knowing about Jon) or that he was told he was the heir.Of course Viserys says that, he was crowned on Dragonstone by Rhaella. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 Check out post 226 in this thread, where I quoted the SSM that says the rules of succession aren't clear.No. The rules are very clear about it. People finding ways to circumvent the rules doesn't mean that the rules aren't completely, utterly clear.If something were to happen to Queen Elizabeth, Prince Charles and Prince William all at the same time, the crown would very clearly go to Prince George and not Prince Harry. There's no question about it. The same applies to the Targ situation. Jon, as the only living son of the Crown Prince, succeeds the throne before his uncle, Viserys- who would become Jon's heir.You're trying to act as if there is some sort of ambiguity in this situation- there is not. None. Nada. Zip. If Jon is legitimate,he's the rightful heir to the throne by every law of succession in Westeros. Jon himself even says it in ADWD- "the children of a man's body come before their uncle by all the laws of Westeros" (paraphrased). Also, I don't agree that the KG guarded either Joffrey or Tommen before they were declared king. In Joffrey's case, he was guarded by Sandor Clegane. When Barristan Selmy, Lord Commander of the KG, heard that Robert was dead, he started to go to Joffrey but stopped when Ned, the Hand, ordered him not to go.You just proved it yourself. When they heard Robert was dead, they started to go to Joffrey until the Hand ordered them not to- that means they knew he was the king and we're going to protect him until they received a counter order. Well, no one was at the ToJ to give the KG there a counter-order, so there's no reason the KG wouldn't treat Jon as the rightful king and protect him as such.In Tommen's case, Arys Oakheart believes that he swore a vow to Joffrey that did not transfer automatically to Tommen, even after Tommen was crowned.So, even AFTER Tommen is declared king, Arys doesn't see him as his king? How is that proving your point? It simply shows me that Arys isn't as loyal as he should be, because he swore to defend the king- not just a specific king. Notice how Selmy goes straight for Joffrey after Robert does- he doesn't question his duty or who he swore an oath to, he just does his duty. MY point is that the 3 KG, considered some of the finest to ever don a white cloak, fought and died to protect Jon, whom they believed to be the rightful king of Westeros over Viserys. You haven't shown any proof that supports your position that the KG wouldn't guard the king without him being crowned, nor have you shown me anything big in the text that supports your claim that the claim on the throne would be in contention between the son of the crown prince and his uncle. I'm really lost as to what your real objection to the idea that Jon is legitimate actually is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 Of course Viserys says that, he was crowned on Dragonstone by Rhaella. True, though that doesn't help much in trying to figure out when/if Aerys named Viserys his heir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 True, though that doesn't help much in trying to figure out when/if Aerys named Viserys his heir.Although it wouldn't impact the ToJ situation, since it was only done after Rhaegar's death to avoid Aegon's claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 So, don't really thing this belongs here at all, but Rhaegar took a big hit in my eyes last night. In the middle of a reread, and I just noticed that Rhaegar was the one who knighted Gregor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 So, don't really thing this belongs here at all, but Rhaegar took a big hit in my eyes last night. In the middle of a reread, and I just noticed that Rhaegar was the one who knighted Gregor. Yup. He definitely wasn't perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 True, though that doesn't help much in trying to figure out when/if Aerys named Viserys his heir.Completely true :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 Since that 'harmless troll' once insinuated that I wanted Jon Snow to shoot his spunk up my face and nothing was done about it, nor did he respond back to me when I asked for an explanation, in fact he just disappeared off the thread all together, I don't see how he is amusing. PS: In light of this, it's funny how he seems to be speaking of arrogance, though. :shocked: That is crass and disgusting. If he can't take a difference of opinion or understand that not everyone is going to agree with him, stooping to that low level, he doesn't deserve to be involved in polite conversation. There is "snark" and then there is just inappropriate. So, don't really thing this belongs here at all, but Rhaegar took a big hit in my eyes last night. In the middle of a reread, and I just noticed that Rhaegar was the one who knighted Gregor. Yeah, that is a little inconsistent with what we know of his intelligence, but it does happen that sometimes people slip under the radar. I'm hopeful GRRM will explain that. Gregor likely had a low cunning to be able to hide the monster he was, (he kind of fits the image of the typical abuser), whereas someone like Cersei really thinks no one can see her for what she is,(because its always a good idea to twist the penis of your little baby brother in front of house guests), so she doesn't try to hide it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Typer of Dorne Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 Quick question, if Jon turns out to be a Targ with a claim to the throne. Say he has died and is resurrected by Bran Mel or whoever. Would his death have released him from his Nights Watch vows? That would certainly be convenient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 Well technically it would. Personally I don't see that happening primarily because I don't believe that Jon is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 Quick question, if Jon turns out to be a Targ with a claim to the throne. Say he has died and is resurrected by Bran Mel or whoever. Would his death have released him from his Nights Watch vows? That would certainly be convenient. Hi! Welcome. I don't think Jon is dead either, and I don't think that GRRM does, ......'so you think he's dead do you?"..... Given how the vows are worded and what actually happens to Jon, I think his death is a "plot device" that enables Jon to be freed. "Kill the boy, let the man be born," and, "now his watch has ended?" (Does anyone have the full quote)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 Since that 'harmless troll' once insinuated that I wanted Jon Snow to shoot his spunk up my face and nothing was done about it, nor did he respond back to me when I asked for an explanation, in fact he just disappeared off the thread all together, I don't see how he is amusing. PS: In light of this, it's funny how he seems to be speaking of arrogance, though. I never noticed the spunk post of his you are referencing--most of what I have seen have just be insisted on relatively absurd theories or making a fool of himself in other ways (like his arrogance diatribe). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 So, I was listening to book 3 again, and I noticed something. When Jon is dreaming about limping through the crypts, he hears the stone kings telling him that he's "not a Stark"...but, we know that by this time, Robb has legitimized him as a Stark, so he's not a Snow anymore. The only way that he can't be a Stark in this case is if he's already a Targaryen. What do you guys think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Ahai Targeryan Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 Well it's relevant to this thread because Rhaegar was not a king and it's very unlikely he would have the support of the king in this matter. ...but still possible? I've stated my case before I'm not gonna go through it all again. I'm not expecting you to change your mind, I've admitted that it's an unlikely theory. I do think's a stretch to say "polygamy is definitely legal." For the record I wasn't the one saying the Faith thought polygamy was worse than incest. I think we can all agree incest is fucking gross. Ok I understand what you mean now. It doesn't change anything, my objections to interpreting that old SSM to mean "polygamy is clearly legal" still apply. Yeah we've been down this road so many times by now we should just settle on a shorthand for the argument. I agree being a bastard would be an obstacle, not an insurmountable one. I still really don't believe the marital status of his parents could affect Jon's role in saving the world from the Others. exactly my thoughts,people wont follow jon bcoz his a prince but will follow him bcoz he is honourable like Ned and the LC of NW.when the Others attack it will be like a state of emergency where everyone will flock to defend humanity and being most of the people see the Others as a myth will follow the guy who is leading the NW as they are the only ones who are supposed to fight the Others.dnt be suprised if the book ends without R+L=J theory being revealed as basically if Jon beats the Others then he will most likely be declared king just like Robs case when he defeated the Lannisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Ahai Targeryan Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 besides if jon has a claim to the throne then he will have to fight it out with danny and im pretty sure people will stumble over themselves to stab him all over again to win favor with danny.besides danny needs to marry someone to strengthen her hold on the throne and marrying some powerful from westeros and jon needs something better to bring to the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 So, I was listening to book 3 again, and I noticed something. When Jon is dreaming about limping through the crypts, he hears the stone kings telling him that he's "not a Stark"...but, we know that by this time, Robb has legitimized him as a Stark, so he's not a Snow anymore. The only way that he can't be a Stark in this case is if he's already a Targaryen. What do you guys think? Nice. ;) Once you come to the conclusion of R+L=J, it's amazing how full the text is of these little subtleties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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