Ashara Chose Ned

[The Twinslayer]

This is not about keeping a foreign retinue but about offending the majority perception of what is or is not morally and/or socially acceptable.

I think there is a difference between a bastard and the mother or father of a bastard. Ashara's bastard might not have been welcome at court. But that does not mean that Ashara would be shunned for having a bastard.

[Vikingkingq]

This is not about keeping a foreign retinue but about offending the majority perception of what is or is not morally and/or socially acceptable.

Protestant Englishmen did not consider Catholic priests acceptable, but that didn't stop Mary and Phillip.

[Ygrain]

Protestant Englishmen did not consider Catholic priests acceptable, but that didn't stop Mary and Phillip.

You do realize that you are talking here about a husband to the queen regnant who was also Catholic and burning protesting Protestants ona a crusade to reinstate Catholicism, right?

[Vikingkingq]

You do realize that you are talking here about a husband to the queen regnant who was also Catholic and burning protesting Protestants ona a crusade to reinstate Catholicism, right?

Which hardly counters my point - just goes to show that the court doesn't have to parallel popular social mores.

[Ygrain]

Which hardly counters my point - just goes to show that the court doesn't have to parallel popular social mores.

No but it illustrates that you hardly have any grasp of social reality of the past times.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Me too. I think there is more to the Ned-Ashara story than one dance at the Harrenhal tournament, and then the next time he sees her she kills herself.

It is interesting that Ned was 18 in the year of the false spring, meaning that he would be close to 20 by the time the Rebellion started, yet he is never linked romantically with any woman other than Ashara. Brandon is only a year older and he is already betrothed to Cat. Lyanna is a few years younger and she is betrothed to Robert. Rickard is making alliances in the south. How did Ned get so old with no betrothal? And wouldn't Rickard consider a southern match for his second son? He probably can't go for a Lannister or a Tyrell, but the daughter of an old, prominent House like the Daynes would be a good match. The Daynes also broaden Rickard's reach into a new region, and they are a good First Men family. What if the reason Brandon introduced Ned to Ashara was to to explore a possible marriage alliance?

For all we know, Ned and Ashara had an understanding and they were waiting until after Brandon's wedding to announce a betrothal. It is also possible that they were lovers from the time of the Harrenhal tournament until the day Ned had to marry Cat. Imagine their tearful parting when Ned told her he had to marry Cat, for duty, not knowing that Ashara was newly pregnant with his child. Perhaps this last meeting even took place at Harrenhal, where they had first met . . .

This would take on a new meaning:

Because all Ned really wanted was to settle down with Ashara for a quiet life.

I have also seen the theory that Barristan's reference to "turning to Stark" probably means Ned because the characters in the books often use last names to refer to Lords. In AGOT, Aerys is "Targaryen" while Rhaegar is "Rhaegar," etc. Under this theory, when Ashara turned to "Stark" it means she turned to "Lord Stark." Brandon never was Lord Stark (he watched his father die), but Barristan knew Ned as Lord Stark for 15 years. So as far as Barristan is concerned, "Stark" means Ned.

But he was thinking of the tourney at Harrenhal in the year of the False Spring! Ned was only 18 years old. If Brandon watched his father die, then he was most definitely Lord of Winterfell if even for mere minutes. I still think there is an argument for Benjen. I know he was the youngest, but still, we've never been given an explanation for why he took the black that I'm aware of. Ashara's suicide would explain it if he was the one who caused it.

[Vikingkingq]

No but it illustrates that you hardly have any grasp of social reality of the past times

Ouch, cutting.

Let's get back on point, shall we?

1. Would Ashara Dayne consider an affair to be dishonorable? No.

2. Is Ashara Dayne's opinion the most important in considering what Ashara Dayne would or would not do at Harrenhal? Yes.

3. Is Ashara Dayne a member of the court in King's Landing? No.

4. Is Ashara Dayne a lady-in-waiting to a Dornishwoman, resident in Dragonstone? Yes.

[Vikingkingq]

But he was thinking of the tourney at Harrenhal in the year of the False Spring! Ned was only 18 years old. If Brandon watched his father die, then he was most definitely Lord of Winterfell if even for mere minutes. I still think there is an argument for Benjen. I know he was the youngest, but still, we've never been given an explanation for why he took the black that I'm aware of. Ashara's suicide would explain it if he was the one who caused it.

Uh...at the oldest, Benjen would have been 14 at the Tourney at Harrenhal. That's kind of creepy, given that Ashara was 20-25.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Which hardly counters my point - just goes to show that the court doesn't have to parallel popular social mores.

This is a good point, in fact. There are many examples in history where the two diverge. However, the court does abide by its own social mores and it's hard to believe that an out-of-wedlock pregnancy of one of the Crown Princess's attendants would not be considered dishonorable and cause for removal from court. Even if we don't know whether this actually happened, it is a definite and very logical possibility.

Also, just because Dorne is more lenient about bastardy doesn't mean anything goes for anybody. Because there are limits. The book's prime example of Dorne's leniency in this matter is Prince Oberyn and he can't really be considered to be typical. He's the brother of the ruler and a man besides; rank - and gender - has its privileges. We know Arianne has been having sex, but if she were to become pregnant I suspect we'd quickly see the limits of Dorne's tolerance.

And even if a culture is more lax about bastardy, they still have inheritance laws which require at least some differentiation between "true-born" and "bastard", just to avoid unnecessary complications and quarrels.

[Vikingkingq]

This is a good point, in fact. There are many examples in history where the two diverge. However, the court does abide by its own social mores and it's hard to believe that an out-of-wedlock pregnancy of one of the Crown Princess's attendants would not be considered dishonorable and cause for removal from court. Even if we don't know whether this actually happened, it is a definite and very logical possibility.

Also, just because Dorne is more lenient about bastardy doesn't mean anything goes for anybody. Because there are limits. The book's prime example of Dorne's leniency in this matter is Prince Oberyn and he can't really be considered to be typical. He's the brother of the ruler and a man besides; rank - and gender - has its privileges. We know Arianne has been having sex, but if she were to become pregnant I suspect we'd quickly see the limits of Dorne's tolerance.

And even if a culture is more lax about bastardy, they still have inheritance laws which require at least some differentiation between "true-born" and "bastard", just to avoid unnecessary complications and quarrels.

Again, why does it matter what the court in King's Landing thinks when it comes to what two people who aren't members of the court at King's Landing would or wouldn't do?

Elia is not in service to Rhaella, nor a part of the court at King's Landing. She is a lady-in-waiting to Elia of Dorne, resident in Dragonstone.

Eddard is not a member of the court at King's Landing, he's a ward of Jon Arryn, resident in the Eyrie.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Again, why does it matter what the court in King's Landing thinks when it comes to what two people who aren't members of the court at King's Landing would or wouldn't do?

Elia is not in service to Rhaella, nor a part of the court at King's Landing. She is a lady-in-waiting to Elia of Dorne, resident in Dragonstone.

Eddard is not a member of the court at King's Landing, he's a ward of Jon Arryn, resident in the Eyrie.

I see what you are saying, but actually I think Elia is still a member of the court, even though she primarily lives at Dragonstone. She also is a member of the royal family, even when away from court. Foreigners (which Elia in effect is) marrying into a ruling family are always required to conform to the habits and mores of the family in power, at least officially.

[Vikingkingq]

I see what you are saying, but actually I think Elia is still a member of the court, even though she primarily lives at Dragonstone. She also is a member of the royal family, even when away from court. Foreigners (which Elia in effect is) marrying into a ruling family are always required to conform to the habits and mores of the family in power, at least officially.

Where's any textual evidence for this? We have no in-world evidence that the Prince of Dragonstone's household is considered of the court when not present in King's Landing, or that foreigners have to conform.

EDIT: in fact, historically we have the opposite. "Princess Myriah brought many of her native manners and customs with her, and many noble Dornishmen and women flocked to his court, all serving to give life in the Red Keep a foreign flavor, and alienating many of Daeron's nobles and courtiers."

[dntthnk1503]

I thought ned killed her husband and when he went to return the guys sword to ashara they might have gotten together but she was still upset about her mans death so she killed herself.......

[Ser Leftwich]

I thought ned killed her husband and when he went to return the guys sword to ashara they might have gotten together but she was still upset about her mans death so she killed herself.......

Ned killed Ser Arthur Dayne, Ashara's brother, not husband.

[WhitewolfStark]

This is a good point, in fact. There are many examples in history where the two diverge. However, the court does abide by its own social mores and it's hard to believe that an out-of-wedlock pregnancy of one of the Crown Princess's attendants would not be considered dishonorable and cause for removal from court. Even if we don't know whether this actually happened, it is a definite and very logical possibility.

Also, just because Dorne is more lenient about bastardy doesn't mean anything goes for anybody. Because there are limits. The book's prime example of Dorne's leniency in this matter is Prince Oberyn and he can't really be considered to be typical. He's the brother of the ruler and a man besides; rank - and gender - has its privileges. We know Arianne has been having sex, but if she were to become pregnant I suspect we'd quickly see the limits of Dorne's tolerance.

And even if a culture is more lax about bastardy, they still have inheritance laws which require at least some differentiation between "true-born" and "bastard", just to avoid unnecessary complications and quarrels.

The other example that comes to mind is Ellaria Sand being the well-known bastard daughter of Lord Uller.

But I agree over all. I always took their 'leninancy' to mean that they didn't just pretend that their bastards didn't exist, but instead were relatively decent people about them, acknowledging them and providing for them so that they would have relatively better lives. Essentially "cleaning up" after themselves, though that's just my opinion/interpretation, I'll admit. And in the end there's the distinction between bastard and legitimate there still.

Bastards may be better treated in Dorne, by being acknowledged and provided for, but in the end they're still bastards.