Heresy 142 [World of Ice and Fire spoilers]

[Black Crow]

BC you bring up something very interesting and to clarify are you proposing that the Labyrinths in this case could have been used for the purpose of some mystical training? I f so i think you are on to something...

The short answer is yes and I think your observations are consistent with this - and yes I think once again that the Winterfell crypts may be significant in this regard rather than as a depository for mouldy parchments, old wedding cloaks, busted harps and so on.

[wolfmaid7]

Those would certainly come to mind first. :cool4: Disturbing a sleeping dragon could explain Hardhome (though we do not have an explanation of what might have happened to this dragon after he killed the entire town) and/or the "winged serpent" that Bran, as Summer, sees after Winterfell is burned.

That being said, upon further thought it seems to me that for a complete annihilation of an advanced race, there may have been additional magical weapons involved. The Others come to mind, of course- whether as a weapon, or- look out, new crackpot theory- as the remaining handful of one of the ancient races (not necessarily the maze builders) that fled from the war? Maybe they used magic to adapt to the cold, and went into hibernation to survive the apocalypse... much like the Children moved underground. These survivors then could have used ice magic to start a long winter, wiping out whoever was left after the initial war. The fact that Sam's NW oath is required to allow Bran and co to cross from south to north suggests the Wall may be a defensive structure in either direction. And realistically, nobody in Westeros has any idea how old it really is or who built it.

(Now that I think about it, this idea of the North as a refugee camp raises more questions than answers so I will drop it for now.)

Other potential WMDs could be bioweapons: infectious diseases (the idea is not new- we see it with Garin's curse/greyscale) or.... ghost grass. Maybe it did take over the world once and everyone starved? :dunno:

This was my initial theory on Hardhome too! The tunnels do suggest firewyrms (except we seem to have tunnels everywhere, so either the wyrms are super widespread or someone/something else is also good at digging) - the main counter argument is that I'm not sure they're fast enough to kill all of Hardhome without leaving a single survivor. A dragon would probably be more efficient. But I do wonder if some are still around somewhere (they also would have been good weapons for the maze builders as they could send them into the other team's maze! In fact, maybe they were bred for this very purpose!? )

Indeed. Don't the old legends tell of them living in the trees? They don't seem to live in trees - maybe they never did, or maybe they more recently moved underground to make it through the next apocalypse. (To be fair, it was humans who named them children of the forest- they refer to themselves as those who sing the song of earth, so perhaps it's just a translation error?) Regardless, they certainly are well set up to survive whatever may be about to happen up top...

So if it is known (at least by some) that sensory deprivation is necessary to open the third eye... I am tempted to go ahead and assume that the Kindly man is very much aware of Arya's abilities, and promoting them on purpose. She thinks she is fooling him but I would bet that he knows. The Faceless Men seem to be closely related to- if not direct descendants of- the faith of the Blind God, so it seems very likely that for them, too, the purpose of sensory deprivation is to open the third eye. Which means some (most? all?) the FM are skinchangers or something equivalent.

I always felt that Jaqen didn't just happen to give his coin to a cute, feisty girl named Arry/Nan/Weasel- joining the FM is a big deal and I'm sure they carefully research their recruits. Varamyr recognizes Jon as a warg right away, even though Jon has no idea, so Jaqen could have sensed it in Arya as well (or even been in KL for the purpose of picking up a Stark). He then made up the whole scenario of owing her 3 lives to see if her personality is suitable for an assassin- a test she passed with flying colors. It also served to give her a taste of the power of the FM - he even shows off his face-changing ability right in front of her, which I would assume is a no-no for a FM. (I think it has come up before, either here or on another thread- that we have seen nothing in the culture of the FM to suggest that when a life is saved, another must be sacrificed. They also don't pray to the red god but to the Great Other, the god of death, and the people he kills for her are not burned so R'hllor is not getting them regardless. So the whole thing only makes sense if it was a test/temptation for Arya. IMHO.) Sorry, I know this is kind of off topic.. but the WB is making me completely re-evaluate so many things and I always love to hear what others think :wideeyed:

I wouldn't say that sensory deprivation in only the normal way but psychic trauma.Sensory deprivation extends to "isolation" or a feeling of not just being deprived or seeing hearing etc.But the sense of being alone. Rickon,Jon and V6 is an example of this. Rickon was pretty much left to his own,while the Skirling pass was dark Jon felt a deep lonliness with regards to his pack. We can see it through Ghost he felt so alone,the world so big and him so small.It will be interesting to see Sansa how she develops and i think she will. The Labyrinth may have been a ritualized way to "force" this.Here is where we see the different modes with Rickon,Bran,Arya and Jon through circumstance going through this naturally. Crap happened and they were vulnerable.

The short answer is yes and I think your observations are consistent with this - and yes I think once again that the Winterfell crypts may be significant in this regard rather than as a depository for mouldy parchments, old wedding cloaks, busted harps and so on.

A place that deepens that isolation yes. I wonder if it was purposeful though.The maze that is,being for this purpose or if it was found out later that this can happen to certain people.

I could imagine sacrifices or criminals walking it for the purpose of feeding a Dragn or a Wyrm,only to have some go all Jedi and emerge unscaythed because they did a mind meld with a beast.Then it becoming ritualized as such.Your chosen you live. If not " Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons because you are juicy and go well with ketchup"

[MaesterSam]

@MaesterSam one option is that the MB/ancient ones left armouries around their empire. I think they created the Others with all their traits as a bioweapon against Westosi inhabitants. But Valeria rose from goat herders that found the dragon eggs. Say they found them in a armoury that also had tech manuals to recreate their tools i.e. Valerian Steel(effective against Others), glass candles, wildfire, and drago-construction™. The KM tells the story of the first faceless man possibly being a noble owner or overseer of the slaves. This overseer would probably be Valerian yet not a dragon rider. Able to copy down enough spells and tricks from the master tombs before skipping town to bravos.

It's like if a apocalyptic event happened, killed the smart people, X generations down the line coming across blueprints for a rifle, with the raw materials on hand.

I like this a lot. The idea of relatively clueless later generations stumbling upon powerful ancient weapons that they don't fully understand, and that may bring about the end of their entire civilization. Dany is a perfect example - she has this amazingly powerful weapon but can't control it. She is aware of this and tries to lock them up, but as we know, this was only a temporary fix.

God only knows (or perhaps I should say, BR only knows ;)) what was woken up at Hardhome. And as for the Others, we simply have no information on why they are back, but it certainly seems plausible that they were accidentally (or intentionally??? ) awoken. If they are indeed a weapon. I still like the idea of them being remnants of an earlier race but again, we have practically nothing to go on either way.

:agree:

I agree, and also with the notion of the blindness not only being a training to develop the usual senses but also a test, which she passed by skin-changing the cat. The Kindly Man may or may not have known it was the cat but he must have known she had found other eyes.

As to the face-changing I think that's a different but related skill. Glamours, as we've discussed before, don't involve physical changes but rather play games with the minds of those looking at the performer. Thus the Ugly Girl looked as though her face was bashed in yet when Arya felt her jaw with her tongue all was present and correct.

I agree, they are separate skills - and yes, likely related given that Arya receives a set of memories along with each face. She even seems to adopt the personalities of her faces, at least in the case of Mercy. It's a little bit as though the original owner left a trace of themselves in the face- not unlike the remnants of Children that Bran senses in the crows, but to a lesser extent. Perhaps being a skinchanger makes it easier to incorporate the left-over personality and memories into the act of becoming that person?

Alternatively, wearing a face may be an entirely separate process, and the requirement for the 3rd eye is unrelated. It would certainly be an immensely useful skill for a FM- both for gathering information (which of course is how Arya has used it thus far) and/or for carrying out assassinations in the body of an animal. It could also potentially be used to fake a suicide, as we have seen that attempting to skinchange a person (i.e. Thistle) will drive them insane. Do it on a bridge, a high tower, or during a battle, and you get a dead target without even the suspicion of murder.

Good post, MaesterSam. Way to synthesize! Lots to consider. I like the idea that all FM might be skinchangers, or 3rd-Eye users of one sort or another...

Thanks :) I LOVE Arya's story arc, and it always bothered me to think that she accidentally ended up where she did because she happened to hand an axe to a guy in a burning wagon. Especially when Bran was so meticulously recruited by team BR.

It also seems like a funny coincidence that her dancing master was from Braavos, and already taught her some important basics- not just how to fight with a sword, but useful survival tactics ("quick as a snake, quiet as a shadow") and how to use her senses to see the real truth. Syrio was also her first introduction to the God of Death.

Of course, if one were to take this line of thinking further down crackpot road, it may lead to some questions we don't want to ask. We can see Arya evolving into a bitter killer gradually, as she loses one family member after another and becomes increasingly isolated. So the question becomes- did Jaqen give her the coin and simply hope that one day she might decide to come to the House of Black and White, or were the FM involved in pushing her in this direction? How badly did they want her? And just how powerful is this group really?

We can step back to the first event nudging her down her dark path: the execution of Ned. Joffrey was supposed to send him to the Wall, and everyone (Cersei, the council, Sansa) assumed that he would. But no, he changed his mind and had him killed. We don't know who or what changed his mind, but the fact remains that if Ned had lived, Arya would not be in Braavos. (Bran also wouldn't be in the cave... so this benefitted BR as well. Hmmm.)

She then travels with the NW recruits, where she meets Jaqen. She saves his life (did she? or did he set that up too?), and he kills people for her. He offers to take her back with him, but she declines, saying she must find her family. Only when she reaches Cat and Robb, they have just been killed at the Red Wedding. Another weird coincidence. We know the Lannisters and Freys planned this, of course, but who originally had the idea? And would Cat not have been more useful as a hostage instead of dead? Again, I completely admit that there is NO evidence linking the FM to the RW, but the fact remains that if Cat had lived, Arya would not be in Braavos.

Then there is the Hound. He looks after Arya and teaches her additional useful killing skills. He also refers to killing as the "gift of mercy", which sounds an awful lot like the FM's euphemism of "giving the gift". I don't remember where he was taking her when he was 'killed' (the Vale maybe?) but it conveniently occurred close to Saltpans, where she then conveniently found a ship to Braavos.

The lack of evidence makes me hesitant about this theory, but it does seem like there are a lot of convenient coincidences that steer her toward her eventual fate. Again, it comes down to how powerful the FM really are, and how important Arya is to them. Considering the manipulation LF has engaged in over the years to put himself in his current position, it seems plausible that at least some of these events were not random. Someone upthread compared having a Stark kid to having a nuke. With the apocalypse about to occur, what wouldn't you do for a nuke?

[Black Crow]

The lack of evidence makes me hesitant about this theory, but it does seem like there are a lot of convenient coincidences that steer her toward her eventual fate. Again, it comes down to how powerful the FM really are, and how important Arya is to them. Considering the manipulation LF has engaged in over the years to put himself in his current position, it seems plausible that at least some of these events were not random. Someone upthread compared having a Stark kid to having a nuke. With the apocalypse about to occur, what wouldn't you do for a nuke?

There's manipulation certainly and it may have been the Stark reputation [for want of a better word] which saw her targeted, but ultimately given what Leaf said I think its more likely that any individual with the gift is a very rare and precious commodity and as a commodity we ought perhaps to consider whether the ability is peculiar to one group or whether both sides- or multiple parties come to that might vy with each other to secure that commodity or piece.

[Black Crow]

And as for the Others, we simply have no information on why they are back, but it certainly seems plausible that they were accidentally (or intentionally??? ) awoken. If they are indeed a weapon. I still like the idea of them being remnants of an earlier race but again, we have practically nothing to go on either way.

Depends, as always, how you define a weapon. I still prefer to see them not as a separate race, ancient or othherwise, but as the changeling servants of one of the current parties involved in this game - not awoken but taken recently.

As to the powers, more generally, I think that while the old gods and maze builders are gone, those using the magic know exactly what they are doing, but its their tools, such as Danaerys who are[metaphorically] in the dark

[moudii]

What if the arm of Dorne and moat calin are what's left of a firewyrm vs. The Wall type of scenario?

[smashedhalo]

Nothing to back up the idea but how about the Arm of Dorne being a dry run as it were. The CotF using the water hammer spell for the first time and want to gauge its strength. IIRC Dorne was always sparsely populated

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Yeah, it's worth thinking about. The idea that Arya's path was somewhat "steered," I mean. Not just coincidental. The only piece I'd push you on is this bit:

We can step back to the first event nudging her down her dark path: the execution of Ned. Joffrey was supposed to send him to the Wall, and everyone (Cersei, the council, Sansa) assumed that he would. But no, he changed his mind and had him killed. We don't know who or what changed his mind, but the fact remains that if Ned had lived, Arya would not be in Braavos.

It's pretty strongly implied that Littlefinger was the figure "behind" Ned's execution - as a primary influential figure behind both Slynt and Joffrey. Not likely that Littlefinger was trying to affect Arya's path through that event - he had bigger scores to settle there. But the Braavos connection is only strengthened with the addition of this particular character to the storyline - what with his secret Titan's head sigil, and all...

[MaesterSam]

There's manipulation certainly and it may have been the Stark reputation [for want of a better word] which saw her targeted, but ultimately given what Leaf said I think its more likely that any individual with the gift is a very rare and precious commodity and as a commodity we ought perhaps to consider whether the ability is peculiar to one group or whether both sides- or multiple parties come to that might vy with each other to secure that commodity or piece.

Yes! I like this. Everyone who's anyone is trying to get their hands on a Stark (or any person with the gift, though so far we've mostly seen it in Starks). It's probably obvious to most informed players that magic is making a comeback, so this raises demand for "tools" with which to use it. In Dany's case it's quite obvious that everyone is trying to team up with her in order to benefit from her dragons. With the Starks it has certainly been more subtle (except for Bran of course, who was very specifically recruited for his gift). It makes me wonder how well known it is that Starks have this power (or at least may have some sort of power that will be useful shortly). Before Robb died, he was rumored to be a warg, so this could have been a hint for those paying attention. Then again, certain events were set in motion well before any Stark demonstrated any powers, which would have required advance knowledge of their potential abilities.

In most cases (except Bran), it appears that the Stark kids are in demand for political reasons- but I think you are suggesting this may not be the case, correct? In Arya's case, it seems the FM (Jaqen specifically, or possibly Syrio even earlier) identified her potential and then 'helped' get her to Braavos.

Do you think Manderly has any idea that Rickon is more than just a symbolic King in the North to rally behind? When we hear 'the North remembers', I wonder if they remember why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, or why the Starks have ruled the North for all this time.

Even more intriguing- how much does Littlefinger know about Starks and their abilities? In addition to political and romantic motivations, does he think Sansa can be useful to him in some other capacity? What about the Tyrells?

The Hound has made a concerted effort to gain the trust of not one, but two, Stark girls. There is also that weird false memory Sansa has of him kissing her, though I have no idea what it could possibly mean.

Oh and Mance Rayder had several opportunities to kill Jon, but did not, even after he betrayed him. Mel is trying to get close to him as well, though in her POV she doesn't seem to think him important.

In short, almost every family in Westeros (plus BR, plus FM) would have had something to gain by the death of Ned and Cat, whether politically or by the acquisition of their very own magical wolf child. Sadly, this suggests that one way or another, the Starks' downfall was inevitable.

[wolfmaid7]

There's manipulation certainly and it may have been the Stark reputation [for want of a better word] which saw her targeted, but ultimately given what Leaf said I think its more likely that any individual with the gift is a very rare and precious commodity and as a commodity we ought perhaps to consider whether the ability is peculiar to one group or whether both sides- or multiple parties come to that might vy with each other to secure that commodity or piece.

I've been saying this for the longest time...lol. There is a mad grab to get these kids be it political or magical at the end of it i believe because of their magic having them as i said before is going to be the equivalent to having a nuke.

Bran has BR as a mentor but at the end of the day Bran is still a tool to be used.

The FM have Arya who is going to be ( if she finishes i think she will) the greatest FM ever and the biggest tool they'll ever have.

Jon almost,almost got swooped up by Melisandre,but he escaped that bullet by getting stabbed.Where i suspect his patron is about to reveal themselves with an icy kiss for him.

Rickon is up in the air and for a while might get used for political reasons to rally the north but i suspect magically with Osha as a mentor who won't contrain his progress he'll be a bad ass.

Sansa will be dangerous because i think she's the one whose going to get used to play people. A female version of BR. She's another one isolated and alone and i suspect she'll start manifesting her gifts in due time the "little bird".

[MaesterSam]

I've been saying this for the longest time...lol. There is a mad grab to get these kids be it political or magical at the end of it i believe because of their magic having them as i said before is going to be the equivalent to having a nuke.

Bran has BR as a mentor but at the end of the day Bran is still a tool to be used.

The FM have Arya who is going to be ( if she finishes i think she will) the greatest FM ever and the biggest tool they'll ever have.

Jon almost,almost got swooped up by Melisandre,but he escaped that bullet by getting stabbed.Where i suspect his patron is about to reveal themselves with an icy kiss for him.

Rickon is up in the air and for a while might get used for political reasons to rally the north but i suspect magically with Osha as a mentor who won't contrain his progress he'll be a bad ass.

Sansa will be dangerous because i think she's the one whose going to get used to play people. A female version of BR. She's another one isolated and alone and i suspect she'll start manifesting her gifts in due time the "little bird".

:agree: I haven't been on here much lately, but I remember the nuke comparison and I love it! Agree with pretty much everything you just said, except I don't think Arya is going to be a tool. The FM want her to be one, but she has been the rebel, so to speak, throughout the entire series and I have complete faith that she will figure out she is being used and refuse to be a tool. She thinks she is there of her own free will- in fact, the Kindly Man keeps offering to let her leave (knowing full well she has nowhere to go)- but as she gets better at reading people and gathering information she will figure out what's really going on. That's kind of where I was trying to go in my earlier post about how involved the FM were (if at all) in the demise of her family. If they were, and she finds out, I would not want to be in their shoes!

Regardless, she is already keeping secrets, checking names off her own list on the side, and still has Needle hidden away. She has her own agenda; in fact one could argue that she is using the FM to get the training she needs for her own purposes. I am not convinced she has any intention of permanently staying there with them. Now the question is- how much of this do they know, and what will they do about it?

Oh and as for Sansa, something is already going on with our little bird. There is that moment with the Hound that she later misremembers as a kiss (which GRRM has confirmed was intentional and significant), and then the snow incident where she loses several hours, comes out of it and fervently starts building Winterfell in the snow. Her gifts are awakening, but they seem to be a bit different from those of her siblings. Perhaps b/c she doesn't have a wolf (which would also explain the delay). Or perhaps there are true differences- Bran seems to have his own skill set, why shouldn't Sansa?

It's also interesting that she is becoming more confident, lying to protect herself and LF, learning how to manipulate Robin, etc. The HBO show suggests this manipulation will extend to LF as well, which is a gutsy and dangerous game to play. I see a parallel to Daenerys here- she was a scared little girl too, until she started having the dragon dreams. Sansa's gift is awakening, I would bet on it. ^_^

[Black Crow]

Each is certainly different or going to be different and each will have a different fate. It would be a touch flat if each of them was going to be a greenseer but they are developing skills. Sansa is going to be the interesting one. She has taken that snowflake communion but she doesn't have a direwolf and that may be significant.

[Black Crow]

Yeah, it's worth thinking about. The idea that Arya's path was somewhat "steered," I mean. Not just coincidental. The only piece I'd push you on is this bit:

It's pretty strongly implied that Littlefinger was the figure "behind" Ned's execution - as a primary influential figure behind both Slynt and Joffrey. Not likely that Littlefinger was trying to affect Arya's path through that event - he had bigger scores to settle there. But the Braavos connection is only strengthened with the addition of this particular character to the storyline - what with his secret Titan's head sigil, and all...

I'm not sure Littlefinger had that kind of access to Joffrey, but then again who knows. However the problem I have with the notion of Littlefinger getting Ned shuffled off in order to set Arya on the road to Braavos is the uncertainty of the outcome. Littlefinger may be Loki but as such he doesn't strike me as a team player.

[wolfmaid7]

Each is certainly different or going to be different and each will have a different fate. It would be a touch flat if each of them was going to be a greenseer but they are developing skills. Sansa is going to be the interesting one. She has taken that snowflake communion but she doesn't have a direwolf and that may be significant.

I agree while I think all are called, I think only two are chosen

[MaesterSam]

Depends, as always, how you define a weapon. I still prefer to see them not as a separate race, ancient or othherwise, but as the changeling servants of one of the current parties involved in this game - not awoken but taken recently.

As to the powers, more generally, I think that while the old gods and maze builders are gone, those using the magic know exactly what they are doing, but its their tools, such as Danaerys who are[metaphorically] in the dark

Oh right, I remember this discussion. So in this case they are kind of like the equivalent of the Ice side's field officers in the coming war... capable of independent thought and action but ultimately serving another player. I think that's more or less what I meant by 'weapon'- they are not their own party with their own interests, but were created (or changed) by someone else for the purpose of war.

Of course the question remains, regardless of their origins- who is this 'other player' that awoke them/changed them/created them, and why now?

What if the arm of Dorne and moat calin are what's left of a firewyrm vs. The Wall type of scenario?

If this is the case, the Ice side should be worried, as it appears they lost a lot of ground with each war. If the current Wall falls, there is nowhere left to retreat to...

Interesting idea though. I would really like it if it turned out that the Wall was built to protect the North from something, not as we are led to believe, to protect the South from the Others.

Yeah, it's worth thinking about. The idea that Arya's path was somewhat "steered," I mean. Not just coincidental. The only piece I'd push you on is this bit:

It's pretty strongly implied that Littlefinger was the figure "behind" Ned's execution - as a primary influential figure behind both Slynt and Joffrey. Not likely that Littlefinger was trying to affect Arya's path through that event - he had bigger scores to settle there. But the Braavos connection is only strengthened with the addition of this particular character to the storyline - what with his secret Titan's head sigil, and all...

Agreed. I don't think LF's motivation was to get Arya to Braavos, but his betrayal of Ned set things in motion in that direction. Not sure if the execution itself can be credited to him; it seems that simply sending Ned to the Wall would have accomplished most of his goals as well.

Perhaps the FM (via Syrio, or perhaps Jaqen in another face) may have already been on hand, starting Arya's training and watching her, and they simply stepped in once Ned was imprisoned. This may have been sooner than they intended, but with Ned out of the picture, the kids were free for the taking so they went for it. Whether they influenced Joffrey to kill him is of course unknown; I only suggested it b/c from their perspective, he needed to be dead, not just on the Wall. With Ned alive, it seems unlikely that Arya (or any Stark child) would choose to leave Westeros, give up everything and become no one.

But with so many players wanting the Starks dead, it's also possible the FM simply stuck around, keeping an eye on Arya in her travels, and waited for other players to dispose of the parents.

[DarkRose_9]

Each is certainly different or going to be different and each will have a different fate. It would be a touch flat if each of them was going to be a greenseer but they are developing skills. Sansa is going to be the interesting one. She has taken that snowflake communion but she doesn't have a direwolf and that may be significant.

It occurs to me that the Stark childrens' abilities may be connected to location as well as their wolves. John, Rickon and Bran seem to have the most similar powers, although Bran's are the most developed. I wonder whether if say, Arya and Bran had swapped places, whether we'd see Arya plugged into a wierwood instead. I think it's a case of both nature (their warg blood) and nuture - that is the twisting events that have led each to their place.

I also wonder if it's important that they are children, as opposed to adults. It would seem that magic has a stronger hold on those who have dabbled in it since their youth.

[Black Crow]

I also wonder if it's important that they are children, as opposed to adults. It would seem that magic has a stronger hold on those who have dabbled in it since their youth.

Oh I would say so or perhaps it might be better to say its easier to take them in their formative years than to teach an old dog new tricks. By the same token of course that's probably why Craster's sons are taken early.

[Black Crow]

...But with so many players wanting the Starks dead, it's also possible the FM simply stuck around, keeping an eye on Arya in her travels, and waited for other players to dispose of the parents.

Or perhaps its a matter of once the She-Wolf is dead there's a scramble to lay claim to each of the pups

[wolfmaid7]

Or perhaps its a matter of once the She-Wolf is dead there's a scramble to lay claim to each of the pups

Word :agree: , It is a mistake to dismiss the wolves importance and influence they have in this whole thing.She paid with her life delivering her precious cargo and precious cargo she did deliver.

[Black Crow]

Yes, but what I'm also saying is that just as the Stark children each took one of the pups, so each of the children may be being taken by different parties.