Heresy 142 [World of Ice and Fire spoilers]

[aDanceWithFlagons]

HotU...."drink from the cup of ice... drink from the cup of fire..."

From Melisandre... "The night is dark and full of terrors, the day bright and beautiful and full of hope. One is black, the other white. There is ice and there is fire. Hate and love. Bitter and sweet. Male and female. Pain and pleasure. Winter and summer. Evil and good. Death and life. Everywhere, opposites. Everywhere, the war."

[Voice]

Thanks Dance :)

HotU...."drink from the cup of ice... drink from the cup of fire..."

From Melisandre... "The night is dark and full of terrors, the day bright and beautiful and full of hope. One is black, the other white. There is ice and there is fire. Hate and love. Bitter and sweet. Male and female. Pain and pleasure. Winter and summer. Evil and good. Death and life. Everywhere, opposites. Everywhere, the war."

And nowhere, the Song.

[wolfmaid7]

Thanks for finding the quote wolfmaid!

The more I roll this about in my head, the more it sounds likely that Mel's Battle for the Dawn is quite separate and distinct from the Song of Ice and Fire, rather than another name for it. Hers may be more like a war against natural circadian rhythm itself. Extrapolated and deified, it might be, but it seems as though she would rather none sleep or dream- like an unnatural race of red walkers.

Perhaps she is Martin's anthropomorphized version of meth addiction ;)

I got to disagree with you here,the ciradian Rhythm has to do with the body clock in relation to to the external per se.The conflict of which Mel's speak is magically derived and we have the mythical foundation for that. While i agree there is a component of seasonality involve it has more to do with the magic of nature than. However, i can if i squint see what you speak of and again that also while it has a physical manifestation also has a magical component in that it's not just sleep that she's trying to avoid but what comes along with it.

Dreams are another mode of communication and she doesn't want to be influenced and seduced by the Other.

And I'd be disappointed if the founder of Heresy didn't disagree BC :)

Though, I'm inclined to put more stock in the characters who have given voice to the namesake of the novels than I am a deceiver afraid of the dark, afraid of sleep, and afraid of dreams.

"We swear it by ice and fire." — Jojen and Meera

"He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire" — HOTU Rhaegar

Seems like there was another reference as well, but in any case, Mel does not speak in these terms.

And hers is always a war, a battle, a struggle, Azor Ahai vs the Great Other. The Song sounds more like the balance wolfmaid speaks of, and the necessity for both summer and winter.

With that said, I think the struggle she feels brewing is real, but is only the gleam reflecting off the tip of the iceberg. The deeper truth is always beyond her vision. Stannis is not AA. And his glowstick is not lightbringer. She is either fool enough to believe they are, fooling herself to believe they are, or fooling others so she might thwart BR. Any scenario leads to far lesser purposes than the Song of Ice and Fire. She is the priestess that was a slave and hers is the Baratheon that was Stannis, nothing more.

I agree it is that battle between Summer and Winter but again the magical aspect is that there is a nature guardian that watches over the Wheel. It doesn;t work if they are out of whack. Mel does say that this battle between the Great Other and R'hollor has been going on since time began so she does have and express rudimentary knowledge of this. The problem is she thinks that this is a battle or song is to be one by one side or the other. She doesn't see that the battle/song is neccessary.

That there is the conundrum that hasn't been figured out yet.Some battles are needed for the world to turn this is one of them.However,sorcery is at the crux of the imbalance instead of just letting the GS's handle their buisness without any external magical influence at all.If the red lot take their hands off trying to usher in an endless Summer that will be fine.If there is a plan to have an endless winter that needs to be stopped.The GS need to operate without hindrance from sorcery.

[wolfmaid7]

Thanks for this quote Flagons....This is the fundamental flaw in Mel's thinking.Ascribing Winter as evil and Summer good.Winter as bitter and summer sweet. She has negative connotation for what must be.

If she wants to somehow bring an end to to the battle and have light,white,sweet,good,life be the winner she is bringing about an abomination to then natural order. The battle, the song unhindered left on its own is how it should be. There should be a time when the Summer king reigns and there should be a time for the Winter king too.When people start messing with that its all bad.

[Voice]

I got to disagree with you here,the ciradian Rhythm has to do with the body clock in relation to to the external per se.The conflict of which Mel's speak is magically derived and we have the mythical foundation for that. While i agree there is a component of seasonality involve it has more to do with the magic of nature than. However, i can if i squint see what you speak of and again that also while it has a physical manifestation also has a magical component in that it's not just sleep that she's trying to avoid but what comes along with it.

Dreams are another mode of communication and she doesn't want to be influenced and seduced by the Other.

Sure, and I get that side of it. I only mean that no one else seems to demonize sleep and dreams the way Mel does, and that someone with such an unnatural aversion to circadian cycles is not to be a trusted source for the true dynamic of the novels.

I agree it is that battle between Summer and Winter but again the magical aspect is that there is a nature guardian that watches over the Wheel. It doesn;t work if they are out of whack. Mel does say that this battle between the Great Other and R'hollor has been going on since time began so she does have and express rudimentary knowledge of this. The problem is she thinks that this is a battle or song is to be one by one side or the other. She doesn't see that the battle/song is neccessary.

Agreed. Though I think the Battle is only a fraction of the eternal Song and that Mel is obsessed with this fraction.

That there is the conundrum that hasn't been figured out yet.Some battles are needed for the world to turn this is one of them.However,sorcery is at the crux of the imbalance instead of just letting the GS's handle their buisness without any external magical influence at all.If the red lot take their hands off trying to usher in an endless Summer that will be fine.If there is a plan to have an endless winter that needs to be stopped.The GS need to operate without hindrance from sorcery.

One could argue that the GS operate using forms of sorcery themselves, but I see your point.

Thanks for this quote Flagons....This is the fundamental flaw in Mel's thinking.Ascribing Winter as evil and Summer good.Winter as bitter and summer sweet. She has negative connotation for what must be.

If she wants to somehow bring an end to to the battle and have light,white,sweet,good,life be the winner she is bringing about an abomination to then natural order. The battle, the song unhindered left on its own is how it should be. There should be a time when the Summer king reigns and there should be a time for the Winter king too.When people start messing with that its all bad.

The battle does not equal the song. But I agree she is attempting to hinder an otherwise self-sustaining dynamic. I'm not a fan of the Winter King, Oak King, Winter King etc stuff myself. Such high ranking messiahs in my opinion would usher in the hand of god (divine intervention) element that Martin has expressed a distaste for.

[wolfmaid7]

The battle does not equal the song. But I agree she is attempting to hinder an otherwise self-sustaining dynamic. I'm not a fan of the Winter King, Oak King, Winter King etc stuff myself. Such high ranking messiahs in my opinion would usher in the hand of god (divine intervention) element that Martin has expressed a distaste for.

Ah seeing the Oak and Holly king as Messiahs is a mistake,they are far from it.They are not benevolent beings who decide the fate of mankind.Nature as you know is unpredicatable sometimes its harsh sometimes not but there is a rythym to it that includes chaos and order. If they were messianic types then we wouldn't have a big problem would we. In short the nature that is natural to this land needs to be left alone.

Again and i restate if sorcery is not done( it doesn't matter who chooses to engage in it) and the GS follow their natural state we won't have a problem.Everything will happen in its turn and end in its turn.

As to Mel being the only one that demonizes sleep that may be her own personal preference.

[Matthew.]

She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai, Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers. (5.31, MELISANDRE)

I'm quoting this...err, quote from several pages back, to throw out a crackpot notion for the true purpose of the Wall, the reason it interferes with Jon and Ghost's link, and why Mel, a Fire Priestess, is the strongest she's ever been while standing on a giant wall of ice.

The Wall was a joint creation of the FM, the Singers, the giants, and the White Walkers--not to mark territory, but to act as the biggest, sturdiest magical ward on Planetos, in order to dampen the geothermal catastrophe that created and perpetuated the Long Night. In other words, the Wall is doing something similar to what the wards in the Fourteen Flames were doing, but on a grander scale, and this is the reason it's important that each subsequent generation build it up. Offerings, ALA Craster's Curse, were the price men had to pay for the WW's to strengthen the Wall, which was the primary job of the original LCs/Night's Kings.

Thus, Mel, a Fire Priestess, feels powerful at the Wall because it's a hotspot of restrained 'fire' (geothermal) energy, just waiting to either be tapped into, or released violently should the Horn of Winter ever be blown.

Okay, that's probably stupid, but it's GRRM's fault for taking too long to give me satisfactory answers :dunno:

Edit: To clarify what I'm envisioning here, the Horn of Winter is blown, waking 'sleeping giants beneath the earth.' The Wall collapses, all along the Northern territories a bunch of volcanoes erupt, spewing ash across the sky and blotting out the sun, and the Long Night begins again.

[Voice]

Okay, that's probably stupid, but it's GRRM's fault for taking too long to give me satisfactory answers :dunno:

LOL it's not stupid, it's westeros.org ...we're all in the same galley, wondering what the winter will bring.

And your theory fits in well with many things that have been kicked around here :)

[wolfmaid7]

I'm quoting this...err, quote from several pages back, to throw out a crackpot notion for the true purpose of the Wall, the reason it interferes with Jon and Ghost's link, and why Mel, a Fire Priestess, is the strongest she's ever been while standing on a giant wall of ice.

The Wall was a joint creation of the FM, the Singers, the giants, and the White Walkers--not to mark territory, but to act as the biggest, sturdiest magical ward on Planetos, in order to dampen the geothermal catastrophe that created and perpetuated the Long Night. In other words, the Wall is doing something similar to what the wards in the Fourteen Flames were doing, but on a grander scale, and this is the reason it's important that each subsequent generation build it up. Offerings, ALA Craster's Curse, were the price men had to pay for the WW's to strengthen the Wall, which was the primary job of the original LCs/Night's Kings.

Thus, Mel, a Fire Priestess, feels powerful at the Wall because it's a hotspot of restrained 'fire' (geothermal) energy, just waiting to either be tapped into, or released violently should the Horn of Winter ever be blown.

Okay, that's probably stupid, but it's GRRM's fault for taking too long to give me satisfactory answers :dunno:

Edit: To clarify what I'm envisioning here, the Horn of Winter is blown, waking 'sleeping giants beneath the earth.' The Wall collapses, all along the Northern territories a bunch of volcanoes erupt, spewing ash across the sky and blotting out the sun, and the Long Night begins again.

Some of us like myself do believe there was a collaboration that involved the wws behind the creation of the Wall and we even in varying degrees have our ideas on why.I never heard this one before about the Wall being a hotspot for geothermic magic. I myself think the location is a nexus of magic.I do like aspects of your post quite a bit because as BC pointed out a few pages a back with Mel's quote to Jon.That the Wall is his place as an agent of ice as much as it is hers as an agent of fire.

I've said this before a few times with respect of what kind of magic Fire and Ice are meaning they are the foundations of Teutonic magic because they are the only two primodial elements in existence.They are at the core of when an age begins or ends.It ends or start with fire,it ends or starts with ice. Crazy enough the Wall may be a convergence of both promodial elements.I'm thinking their maybe volvanic activity deep within it.

If you haven't you can check out our discussion from the first Heresy project where we discussed it.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/103541-heresy-91/

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Yeah, Mel may be experiencing something at the Wall similar to an experience in Asshai: attuned to power sources, a closeness to a power foci or heart. She can use this power to her advantage. Maybe. As discussed in the past magic is magic it is the user that brings the seed to fruit. The user learns some set of skills that focuses on a specific outcome. Some people can learn multiple skills e.g. Mel and MMD. Although the conversation between the Ghost of High Heart and Thoros let's us know that one can overpower or disturb the other. There might be a cap on one magic belonging to all. Or the blood of the user?

It seems to me that Mel's reading and shadowbinding skills at the Wall are on the increase, maybe glamour too. The reading of events are most likely influenced by others during her time at the wall, and if she can truly produce a terrible shadow beast now, it is probably the proximity, either in time or space, to darkness. (I still say Mel will make a terrible shadow thingy using either Jon or Tormund.)

Or the power at the wall could be fire below and ice on top held together by weirwood in between. I still like the idea of firewyrms below the surface with a horn to control them above ground... Like Yoplaits's yogurt contest... Fruit on the bottom, Hope on top. (Mitch Hedberg!)

[Voice]

Mel's power may be on the rise simply because the old powers are awakening, dragons stir beneath the sunrise, etc. She's not the most astute reader of signs, and may be confusing the growth of magic in general with her own prowess. I'm not dismissing the power of the Wall, but that power, too, would likely grow now that all powers are rising.

She finds herself next to the largest "Man" made structure in the world, one of the great hinges to be sure, so that is a likely explanation for the power she feels. But, it is more likely she is reading things wrong once again and simply feeling the growing strength of all magical power.

[Matthew.]

LOL it's not stupid, it's westeros.org ...we're all in the same galley, wondering what the winter will bring.

And your theory fits in well with many things that have been kicked around here :)

That post was pure, coffee-fueled, stream of consciousness impulse, so I'm surprised that at least some of it might be plausible in retrospect. If nothing else, it certainly seems like there's more to the Wall than just keeping out wights, wildlings, and WWs.

If you haven't you can check out our discussion from the first Heresy project where we discussed it.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/103541-heresy-91/

Thanks, I will!

(I still say Mel will make a terrible shadow thingy using either Jon or Tormund.)

I'm worried about Jon, but I do also wonder might happen if she tried to perform some sort of ritual with Craster's son, who was originally intended as an offering to the WW's. I suppose Shireen's a possibility as well ("a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire"); if I'm not mistaken, in the show's version of events, Mel specifically advocates for Shireen being brought to the Wall because she believes the Lord of Light has a purpose for her, which might be some fairly unsubtle foreshadowing from D&D.

[King Tyrion XX]

Wow like 12 days and only halfway through the thread. Never thought I'd see the day :P

[wolfmaid7]

Mel's power may be on the rise simply because the old powers are awakening, dragons stir beneath the sunrise, etc. She's not the most astute reader of signs, and may be confusing the growth of magic in general with her own prowess. I'm not dismissing the power of the Wall, but that power, too, would likely grow now that all powers are rising.

She finds herself next to the largest "Man" made structure in the world, one of the great hinges to be sure, so that is a likely explanation for the power she feels. But, it is more likely she is reading things wrong once again and simply feeling the growing strength of all magical power.

Now the Wall being man made is debatable but Mel must know from where she is feeling power.Like Jon feeling power emanating from the Weirwood at white tree.Or better yet Mel at Storms end you can just feel where the energy is.So I trust that she knows where.

[Phillip Frye]

I only mean that no one else seems to demonize sleep and dreams the way Mel does, and that someone with such an unnatural aversion to circadian cycles is not to be a trusted source for the true dynamic of the novels.

Tyrion also does not like to sleep to the point in which he drinks himself into a stupor to avoid his dreams.

[Phillip Frye]

Got to wonder whether she voyaged up the river and into the Heart of Darkness.

It will be impossible to say one way or the other unless we get more information via her POV. Evidence in favor seems to be that she is an excellent shadow-binder. Evidence against is her total aversion to darkness. I imagine that Asshai itself would have seriously freaked her out.

[Phillip Frye]

I wonder if our assumptions about Melisandre really have merit. According to the actor who played Cressen, Carice Van Houten told him that Melisandre was four hundred years old. We're not certain that the Church of the R'hllor is even four hundred years old.

We assume that the church sent her to Asshai. Does it really seem likely that they would send anyone to the Shadowlands? It would seem to be the most abhorrent place to someone like Benerro. What is she was a shadow-binder before she joined the faith? What if she has been off the reservation for a long time and went to Asshai on her own? We just don't know her real history. Yet.

It is possible that Melisandre was present at the Doom of Valyria four hundred years ago. Perhaps she was transformed during the Doom into a fire wight. Maybe all of the original fire wights were transformed by the Doom four hundred years ago. It would explain why the church seemed to spring up in the vicinity of the ruins of Valyria shortly after the Doom. Maybe Valyria went up in flames and those wights walking out of the inferno created their own religion. Maybe there is some super wight still living in the area of the Smoking Sea named R'hllor. We don't know.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I wonder if our assumptions about Melisandre really have merit. According to the actor who played Cressen, Carice Van Houten told him that Melisandre was four hundred years old. We're not certain that the Church of the R'hllor is even four hundred years old.

We assume that the church sent her to Asshai. Does it really seem likely that they would send anyone to the Shadowlands? It would seem to be the most abhorrent place to someone like Benerro. What is she was a shadow-binder before she joined the faith? What if she has been off the reservation for a long time and went to Asshai on her own? We just don't know her real history. Yet.

It is possible that Melisandre was present at the Doom of Valyria four hundred years ago. Perhaps she was transformed during the Doom into a fire wight. Maybe all of the original fire wights were transformed by the Doom four hundred years ago. It would explain why the church seemed to spring up in the vicinity of the ruins of Valyria shortly after the Doom. Maybe Valyria went up in flames and those wights walking out of the inferno created their own religion. Maybe there is some super wight still living in the area of the Smoking Sea named R'hllor. We don't know.

I don't see R'hllorist sending Mel to Asshai. I think she travelled there on her own time.

As to Valyria and the Red religion, Moqorro has a ceartain reverence for the Fourteen Flames. He tells Tyrion it's not wise to look too hard into the fires of the Smoking Sea as they pass close by. Don't have the quote handy, but it reminds me of Bran glimpsing the Heart of Winter, seeing the horror behind the curtain.

[Voice]

Now the Wall being man made is debatable but Mel must know from where she is feeling power.Like Jon feeling power emanating from the Weirwood at white tree.Or better yet Mel at Storms end you can just feel where the energy is.So I trust that she knows where.

Hence the quotes I put around "Man"...

Regarding the rest, Jon is observant. Mel is not. And regarding Storm's End specifically, she had to ask Davos if they were through and under the outer wall of the castle, because she couldn't tell. I'm not saying the woman is blind, or magically ungifted, but she isn't observant or intuitive.

[Black Crow]

It will be impossible to say one way or the other unless we get more information via her POV. Evidence in favor seems to be that she is an excellent shadow-binder. Evidence against is her total aversion to darkness. I imagine that Asshai itself would have seriously freaked her out.

This is why I raised it. I think that she may have gone to Asshai to learn all sorts but whether she went up the river on Marlow's steamer and into the Heart of Darkness is a bit more ambiguous. She talks to Davos of how shadows are created by light but I'm also inclined to agree that total darkness freaks her out and wonder whether having learned what there was to learn in Asshai itself she bethought to herself of going up the river but instead of opening her third eye returned babbling about the horror.