Heresy 142 [World of Ice and Fire spoilers]

[Black Crow]

I wonder if our assumptions about Melisandre really have merit. According to the actor who played Cressen, Carice Van Houten told him that Melisandre was four hundred years old. We're not certain that the Church of the R'hllor is even four hundred years old.

It may be, I'll need to re-check whether the World Book gives any clues, but as I pointed out earlier its interesting that according to the book its only in the last hundred years the red priests have been coming to Westeros.

[Matthew.]

...the Wall is doing something similar to what the wards in the Fourteen Flames were doing, but on a grander scale, and this is the reason it's important that each subsequent generation build it up.

Crackpot Addendum: The Wall (and its underlying magical wards) was built along a fault line, in an attempt to halt the Long Night, which was itself a consequence of unleashing the Hammer of the Waters; the pact to build the Wall is the 'aide' given to the Last Hero.

[Black Crow]

Given that all we've actually got is:

All Bran could think of was Old Nan’s story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds. He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. “The children will help him,” he blurted, “the children of the forest!”

ETA: premature post; what I intended to say was that given this is all we've got, given the context I'd be reluctant to take it beyond their affording the protection of guest right to Last Hero and hopefully to Benjen.

[Matthew.]

That's not all we've got. From the WB:

"In the North, they tell of a last hero who sought out the intercession of the children of the forest, his companions abandoning him or dying one by one as they faced ravenous giants, cold servants, and the Others themselves. Alone he finally reached the children, despite the efforts of the white walkers, and all the tales agree this was a turning point. Thanks to the children, the first men of the Night’s Watch banded together and were able to fight—and win—the Battle for the Dawn: the last battle that broke the endless winter and sent the Others fleeing to the icy north."

That version of the tale certainly implies more intercession from the Singers than simply providing guest right. Of course, accepting all of that tale at face value also would disprove my own proposal, since it states that the Long Night was ended by a decisive battle; instead, I believe there was a new pact brokered between the Last Hero and the Old Races, and that constructing the Wall/forming the NW was an integral part of halting the Long Night.

Edit: UNLESS, of course, in providing the protection of guest right, the Singers are acting as a neutral party, providing safe negotiating ground for the Last Hero and the Others, assuming that the Others were their own distinct faction, and played a role in building the Wall.

[Black Crow]

What we've got there is the "official" version of a story we're told nothing about and concerning which we have grave doubts - as discussed up and down heresy over the years. We even have suspicions that the real reason the 13 heroes were looking for the Children was to cry pax, and that the Pact followed rather than preceded the Long Night.

[Matthew.]

What we've got there is the "official" version of a story we're told nothing about and concerning which we have grave doubts - as discussed up and down heresy over the years. We even have suspicions that the real reason the 13 heroes were looking for the Children was to cry pax, and that the Pact followed rather than preceded the Long Night.

I'm not unaware of this, nor am I really seeing how it's entirely incompatible with what I suggested. For example, lets say the Long Night is something unleashed intentionally by the Singers, or at least an event that they know how to capitalize upon by sending out the WW's to spread terror; the Last Hero comes, cries pax, the Pact is formed, and then the Wall is constructed to stall further natural disaster; instead of a full-on winter without end, Westeros contends with the lesser problem of messed up seasons.

I'm suggesting this primarily to find an alternative explanation for the Wall, other than its only purpose being to halt the wights and Others. Along with the humans crying pax, I've also seen it suggested in prior threads that the Wall was a demarcation line... but if so, then whom is being dived from whom? Characterizing it as dividing the realms of men from the Otherlanders/Old Races doesn't add up to me. By the time of the 13th LC, there are enough of the FM north of the Wall to band behind a king, while simultaneously, we have no indication that the Singers ever ceased occupying southern territories, such as the Grove at High Heart, or the God's Eye.

_____

Having said all of that, I'm still inclined toward the standard presentation of events, and that the Pact on the God's Eye predates the Long Night. If the entire purpose of the Long Night was to get the FM to cry pax, why no response from the Singers after the NK is overthrown? Why not bust out the WW's again when the Andals arrive?

This is my alternative:

There's a Second Pact to form the NW and the Wall, and this Pact is made between the FM/Singers/Giants and The Others, who are their own faction, distinguished by the magic they utilize rather than by race. The Others build the Wall to slow the Long Night, and the LC/NK claims all territory north of the Wall. The FM pay the occasional child as tribute to sustain the Others at the Wall, with those of skinchanger and Greenseer blood being the most desired offerings; the NW, through force, pulls from the Wildling herd for the blood sacrifice fodder necessary to build up the Wall ("This wall is made o' blood").

Time passes, the Wildlings grow to hate and fear the Wall and it's overseers. Joramun, for reasons unknown, finds an ally in Brandon the Breaker, and they overthrow the NK.

Joramun binds the NK and his companions in iron and buries them alive in the Frostfangs, the North takes control of the Wall; the Singers don't respond because they're not the ones with whom the FM have broken faith, and the Others don't respond because they're physically unable - until very recently, when the NK is unearthed from the Frostfangs, and begins swelling his ranks once again with tributes from Craster.

[MaesterSam]

In this, I still see a problem, unless this theory accounts for Thoros being so low on the totem pole that he isn't part of the AA search (far from impossible, given that he's been a drunkard for a long time). Even so, Thoros is in the presence of a man who has been resurrected several times, bleeds fire, and can wield a flaming sword, yet we get no indication from Thoros that he believes he's found R'hllor's chosen messiah; no gearing up for the final battle, no attempts to wake dragons from stone. Instead, he's content to live as a glorified bandit.

:agree: Thoros does not seem to ever have heard of AA or any battle for the Dawn. Which is interesting, given that Beric does fit the description rather closely. Beric is dead now, of course, but I have a feeling Thoros is about to meet the real AA. Jaime and Brienne- and more importantly, Oathkeeper, the red sword- are on their way to him. Chances are, that sword is gonna be catching fire in the near future. (I wonder if anyone Thoros resurrects will "bleed fire" like Beric? If so, I assume whoever ends up being AA first kills Lady Stoneheart and it is her blood that lights the sword.)

I've been thinking for a while now that Thoros is being underestimated. A key part of the AA prophecy is that those who die in his service will come back to life, and the only place we have seen this happen (south of the Wall) is in the presence of Thoros. It is also the only time we see a (legitimate) burning sword. I predict he will be instrumental in bringing about the return of AA, though this may be quite by accident and not necessarily a good thing.

I think the point about Thoros is that he was one of those younger sons who wasn't going to inherit and was too clever to go into the army but not clever enough for the law and so settled for being a country parson. He was at best just going through the motions and while suitably astonished at raising Beric Dondarrion and everything that followed from that he's too close to him and too aware of what the curse is taking out of his friend to do anything so silly as to proclaim him as Azor Ahai - and what's more although he's converted the Brotherhood I'd suggest that having seen it at first hand he may be a good deal less keen than Master Benero on this summer without an end in which those who die in the name of R'hllor will rise again.

Great point! He is a fire priest, yet he realizes that "fire consumes" and that these new powers he has come at a price. When Arya asks about resurrecting a man without a head, Thoros replies that Ned is at peace now and it would be wrong to bring him back (not that different from what BR tells Bran). Beric goes so far as to say "I wouldn't wish my life on him" suggesting he would prefer to stay dead- a choice he then makes when he gives his life to Cat. That of course is another reason for Thoros to be VERY cautious about future resurrections, as she is not quite the same Lady Stark they once knew...

Thoros is realizing what Stephen King said so well: "Sometimes, dead is better".

Neither am I to be honest, only wanted to bring up another angle. And while I'm aware of the issue the Singers had with burning them down, that does not dismiss them as being part of the Fire in the Song. The way of the North was once the way of the South as well, pre-Andal. Weirwoods were once common south of the neck. It makes no sense that they be tied to Winter and not be equally tied to Summer. And while the Singers were horrified when waves of Men started to put their trees to the sword and flame, that is not sufficient to dismiss the power within them being connected to the Fire=Life side of things.

I like this. While I hesitate to place the trees on the Fire side specifically, I do agree that they are probably not specifically tied to Ice either, as we often tend to assume. Same with the Singers. It's easy to forget that they used to live everywhere, not just in the North. They are up there now, having been driven out of the rest of Westeros by men; same with the weirwoods. In fact, the Old Gods fit into this group as well- they were worshipped by First Men everywhere before the Andals came, and we know of at least one weirwood throne in the south (the one in Beric's cave). Presumably there is one on the Isle of Faces as well, and who knows how many more are scattered all over Westeros.

Strangely, I don't remember any mention of weirwoods on Essos. Given that we once had a land bridge between the continents, and people have been sailing back and forth for many centuries and could have planted them, I would expect there to be some on both continents. Weirwood seems to be a fairly popular building material in Essos too- we have the door in the House of the Undying, and the one in the House of Black and White. So why wouldn't people have planted some, even if they weren't naturally occurring? It seems the two options are; 1) there were once weirwoods on Essos, and all of them were destroyed, or 2) for some reason they just won't grow there. Both options are interesting IMO, especially since the anti-weirwood attitude of the First Men was based on the scary faces in the trees and not the trees themselves...

It may be, I'll need to re-check whether the World Book gives any clues, but as I pointed out earlier its interesting that according to the book its only in the last hundred years the red priests have been coming to Westeros.

Hmm, interesting indeed. Especially if they didn't really spread around Essos until after the Doom. This would suggest they are not fans of dragons, waiting until they were gone from Essos before they started their faith, and then again waiting for their extinction before coming to Westeros.

[Black Crow]

Hmm, interesting indeed. Especially if they didn't really spread around Essos until after the Doom. This would suggest they are not fans of dragons, waiting until they were gone from Essos before they started their faith, and then again waiting for their extinction before coming to Westeros.

Not necessarily, I'd be more inclined to interpret it as knowing [or at least believing] that the prophecy was soon going to come to pass and positioning themselves accordingly.

[Matthew.]

If the entire purpose of the Long Night was to get the FM to cry pax, why no response from the Singers after the NK is overthrown? Why not bust out the WW's again when the Andals arrive?

In retrospect, I have an answer to my own criticism: war fatigue. The Singers use the Hammer of the Waters, at great personal cost, and still the men come. They go to the trouble of unleashing wintery death, at great cost to both themselves and nature, and still the men come. They become defeatist, like Leaf, and hide away in their mounds.

That the Others are back would then be either a response to extraordinary circumstances (the Prince that was Promised, dragons), or BR taking a far less isolationist approach to, er, foreign policy.

[Black Crow]

Like so much of the stuff we argue about here in Heresy I think our differing views are more a matter of degree than outright opposition. Unlike another place there is no creed which is to be defended against all comers and at all costs. It also I think depends as well on words and how we express them. What exactly does Melisandre mean by a hinge and how does it differ if at all from your fault line?

A hinge is an opening or rather a means to an opening and doors or barriers can work in either direction both to deny or to facilitate access in either direction, hence the suggestion that the Wall is not a fixed barrier but a demarcation [or is it a fault line?] between the realms of men and the rather more magical otherlands beyond. And because its a hinge its also a place where those with the knowledge and the magic can pass between those realms, for example by means of the Black Gate.

Naturally enough that then raises the old questions as to the physicality of the Wall. GRRM has said it wasn't always so big, but was that because men were constantly raising great blocks up as much as 700 feet in the air all along its length, or does the Wall itself grow as a tree does, ring upon ring each winter?* It is after all as much a magical as a physical structure.

And its as a magical structure and by Ygritte's accounting an evil structure that we must not only question whether it in fact grows [and defends itself] of its own accord, but who really built it and why.

*ETA: I do know of course that trees add their rings in the summer but as we're dealing with a structure of ice it would obviously do its growing in the winter

[Black Crow]

And because I can never resist it when talking about the Wall:

"Blood built it, blood stopped the building of it, and blood will bring it down. Black will be its fall."

[Associate Maester]

It may be, I'll need to re-check whether the World Book gives any clues, but as I pointed out earlier its interesting that according to the book its only in the last hundred years the red priests have been coming to Westeros.

We know from the World Book that:

--R'hllorianism was around in Valyria prior to the Doom. There is a quote in the World Book from a priest/prophet lamenting the Valyrian attitude towards religion. Some people believe/believed that R'hllorians caused the Doom to punish the Valyrians. Asshai is a destination for all sinister and non-sinister magically-inclined people--including Red Priests.

--There was an interesting bit in the Inside GOT Season 3 and 4 book too about Lys being the principle temple of the Red Faith and there the Priestess and her priestesses (can't remember if it also mentions priests) pray to bring back the dawn.

[Black Crow]

We know from the World Book that:

--R'hllorianism was around in Valyria prior to the Doom. There is a quote in the World Book from a priest/prophet lamenting the Valyrian attitude towards religion. Some people believe/believed that R'hllorians caused the Doom to punish the Valyrians.

That would certainly be consistent with Master Benero's preaching and its interesting of course that the Targaryens not only fled Valyria before the Doom but that Benero regards the last Targaryen as being the means to finish off the last of the Valyrians behind the Black Walls of Volantis.

[Matthew.]

Like so much of the stuff we argue about here in Heresy I think our differing views are more a matter of degree than outright opposition.

I'll say up front that if I was in anyway expressing certitude, implying that the ideas I was spitballing are The One True Way, or implying that other ideas are not meritorious, that was not my intent, and I apologize. I just have a bad adversarial streak, which can occasionally result in not only arguing with others, but with myself; often, I'll read something I posted in a flight of fancy, and have to resist the temptation to respond to my own posts and destroy them piece by piece. Maybe I should have gone to law school.

A hinge is an opening or rather a means to an opening and doors or barriers can work in either direction both to deny or to facilitate access in either direction, hence the suggestion that the Wall is not a fixed barrier but a demarcation [or is it a fault line?] between the realms of men and the rather more magical otherlands beyond. And because its a hinge its also a place where those with the knowledge and the magic can pass between those realms, for example by means of the Black Gate.

I can see this. It's interesting that magic seems to have (mostly) fallen to the stuff of legend south of the Wall, and even though the Stark gang is born with the gift in their blood, it took a direwolf crossing the 'line' to awaken it, and even then Bran must go north to fully realize his potential. I don't want to go too far overboard (again) here, but I wonder if there's a connection there, between the Starks, south of the Wall, having their gifts reawakened, and that line that seems to have been present in even the oldest version of the NW vow: "...the horn that wakes the sleepers."

[Black Crow]

I'll say up front that if I was in anyway expressing certitude, implying that the ideas I was spitballing are The One True Way, or implying that other ideas are not meritorious, that was not my intent, and I apologize. I just have a bad adversarial streak, which can occasionally result in not only arguing with others, but with myself; often, I'll read something I posted in a flight of fancy, and have to resist the temptation to respond to my own posts and destroy them piece by piece. Maybe I should have gone to law school.

No apology is merited, I was making that observation simply by way of explaining my own response to your post

[Black Crow]

I can see this. It's interesting that magic seems to have (mostly) fallen to the stuff of legend south of the Wall, and even though the Stark gang is born with the gift in their blood, it took a direwolf crossing the 'line' to awaken it, and even then Bran must go north to fully realize his potential. I don't want to go too far overboard (again) here, but I wonder if there's a connection there, between the Starks, south of the Wall, having their gifts reawakened, and that line that seems to have been present in even the oldest version of the NW vow: "...the horn that wakes the sleepers."

This is one of the reasons why some of us advocate the theory that the Wall is not simply a barricade to stop the Others [whoever they might be] from coming south, but a demarcation between different realms - and another is the emphasis placed in text on the lands below the Wall being the "realms of men" - an emphasis which of itself clearly implies that the lands above the Wall lie in a different ream.

[Voice]

I like this. While I hesitate to place the trees on the Fire side specifically, I do agree that they are probably not specifically tied to Ice either, as we often tend to assume. Same with the Singers. It's easy to forget that they used to live everywhere, not just in the North. They are up there now, having been driven out of the rest of Westeros by men; same with the weirwoods. In fact, the Old Gods fit into this group as well- they were worshipped by First Men everywhere before the Andals came, and we know of at least one weirwood throne in the south (the one in Beric's cave). Presumably there is one on the Isle of Faces as well, and who knows how many more are scattered all over Westeros.

Strangely, I don't remember any mention of weirwoods on Essos. Given that we once had a land bridge between the continents, and people have been sailing back and forth for many centuries and could have planted them, I would expect there to be some on both continents. Weirwood seems to be a fairly popular building material in Essos too- we have the door in the House of the Undying, and the one in the House of Black and White. So why wouldn't people have planted some, even if they weren't naturally occurring? It seems the two options are; 1) there were once weirwoods on Essos, and all of them were destroyed, or 2) for some reason they just won't grow there. Both options are interesting IMO, especially since the anti-weirwood attitude of the First Men was based on the scary faces in the trees and not the trees themselves...

I should clarify a bit. In thinking about the Weirwood-does-not-equal-Winter angle, I must state I also feel the species does not equal Summer. I believe the Weirwood is unique among the trees of the wood because it embodies both. White and Red. Ice and Fire. Bone and Blood.

I believe, mayhaps unheretically, that Those Who Sing the Song of Earth know that men must Sing the Song of Ice and Fire. Perhaps due to the fact that some of those 'Men' may be Ice themselves, as in the case of WW's (who's language is not described all that differently from the old tongue).

I should also point out that I believe the WW's are not Craster's Sons. I believe that when the First Men put the Weirwoods to the torch, they instigated an equal and opposite reaction.

Man puts Weirwood to Fire... --> Weirwood puts Man to Ice...

Unknowingly, the pyromaniacal First Men cursed themselves to an Icy fate when they touched flame to the Weirwoods. Thus, eventually, First Men learned to make offerings of Fire to the Weirwoods in a more appropriate manner - through Blood. Blood Sacrifices gave way to cleaning blood from the sword (Ice) in the pool beneath the heart tree.

I was going to write this all up in more detail, with references a few heresies ago when BC asked for our 'theories of everything' but instead I wanted to read the books again instead of writing my own :)

Regarding the last part, I think the presence of Weirwood as a material source for doors and bows and the like in Essos can be explained by Westerosi sacrilegiously cutting them down in Westeros by the score and then trading off the timber.

In any scenario, the trees in Westeros freaked out the First Men despite them being marked with faces that resemble Men more than they do Singers, which is a very glaring oddity from both points of view.

[Black Crow]

In considering this I think its worth bearing in mind that there was no such thing as a tribe called the First Men and that although the title is capitalised they were abviously a number of different peoples who were the first men [no capitalisation] who came to Westeros and that while some of them burned the weirwoods others may have been more accepting of them and the conflict between the old races and the new may nt have been so sharply defined as it is today.

[Black Crow]

Regarding the last part, I think the presence of Weirwood as a material source for doors and bows and the like in Essos can be explained by Westerosi sacrilegiously cutting them down in Westeros by the score and then trading off the timber.

Speaking from the semi-professional viewpoint of shooting longbow for the past 20-odd years and occasionally making one, the requirement for both heartwood and sapwood in a bow means it is best split from a straight limb or trunk which you can place your hands around. Consequently if a bow was to be made of weirwood it would need to be taken from a young and immature tree rather than one of the big ones with or without faces.

[wolfmaid7]

I should clarify a bit. In thinking about the Weirwood-does-not-equal-Winter angle, I must state I also feel the species does not equal Summer. I believe the Weirwood is unique among the trees of the wood because it embodies both. White and Red. Ice and Fire. Bone and Blood.

I believe, mayhaps unheretically, that Those Who Sing the Song of Earth know that men must Sing the Song of Ice and Fire. Perhaps due to the fact that some of those 'Men' may be Ice themselves, as in the case of WW's (who's language is not described all that differently from the old tongue).

I should also point out that I believe the WW's are not Craster's Sons. I believe that when the First Men put the Weirwoods to the torch, they instigated an equal and opposite reaction.

Man puts Weirwood to Fire... --> Weirwood puts Man to Ice...

Unknowingly, the pyromaniacal First Men cursed themselves to an Icy fate when they touched flame to the Weirwoods. Thus, eventually, First Men learned to make offerings of Fire to the Weirwoods in a more appropriate manner - through Blood. Blood Sacrifices gave way to cleaning blood from the sword (Ice) in the pool beneath the heart tree.

I was going to write this all up in more detail, with references a few heresies ago when BC asked for our 'theories of everything' but instead I wanted to read the books again instead of writing my own :)

Regarding the last part, I think the presence of Weirwood as a material source for doors and bows and the like in Essos can be explained by Westerosi sacrilegiously cutting them down in Westeros by the score and then trading off the timber.

In any scenario, the trees in Westeros freaked out the First Men despite them being marked with faces that resemble Men more than they do Singers, which is a very glaring oddity from both points of view.

I'm a bit confused about the weirwood equating to a particular season.I don't think it matters it grew all over westeros so it's not partial to either or its ability as a conduit to X is what's important.