Heresy 142 [World of Ice and Fire spoilers]

[Voice]

I was just thinking about the Others swords again, in relation what we said above and my notion of Weirwood = Ice and Fire: Man putting Weirwood to Fire results in the fire freezing (Obsidian) and the Weirwood putting Man to Ice.

The power of the Others seems to truly reside in their blades alone, doesn't it, which is beyond strange. HBO gave them menacing faces, and NK sharp teeth, but Martin has written so as to to make their presence alone feel dangerous and peculiar. Even though, in stature, they are no more threatening than any other stranger in the wood. They don't breathe fire, nor do they squirt shadow assassins from their nether regions, yet... ;)

No, their danger to Men resides in their "longswords," and their longswords alone. Those are what cut armor like cheesecloth and shatter castle-forged steel like a tree struck by lightning.

Obsidian is Frozen Fire: that which once could destroy and cast light, made inert and opaque.

In a congruent fashion, the Others' weapons appear to be Burning Ice:

In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

That which was once inert, set aglow, and imbued with an awesome destructive capacity.

[Matthew.]

Yet all of them did it in sync.That made me think that there is a reason be it rites of passage,ritualistic,props to a worthy fallen foe etc.

It's possible it's ritualistic, but given all that's subsequently befallen the modern incarnation of the NW, in retrospect it looks more like a declaration of war; at the least, I view what happened to Royce (and the fact that one man of their party was allowed to survive), and Othor and Jafer's sneak attack as provocations. Inevitably, Mormont can no longer ignore the evidence, and is forced to ride out in force, only for most of the fighting men of the NW to be crushed at the Fist.

[Black Crow]

Yeah, I'd say that was a pretty fair assessment

[wolfmaid7]

I differ in that respect, I don't believe the wws are the force behind the Wights so any declaration of war if there Is such a thing in this case goes higher up the chain.

Given the above it is certain to me whether J affa and Othor were on their way back and they just ran out of time.Or if they were planted.If so who benefited who capitalized.

If they were left intentionally for the NW to find could that not serve as a warning.. ?That hey the dead are walking. Everything strange about these bodies were determined outside. Blues eyes, no rot, animals won't go near.And someone wisely said burn them.Those were tangible assessments to make which should have resulted in burning them.

From my view the only group that benefited from the NW riding out in full was Mance.

They were the only ones in light of the wights that made an attempt on the wall.There's no way they could foresee bringing the bodies in, they as I said might have just burned them.

But the revelation did force Mormont to leave.The Wall for all intense and purpose at that point was very vulnerable.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

It does make sense to bring the Watch to the fight rather than the fight to the Watch.

[wolfmaid7]

It does make sense to bring the Watch to the fight rather than the fight to the Watch.

No it doesn't imo, unless you make a play for the Wall and at least have that lined up.The only one that did was Mance.If they want to do subterfuge I could think of like 4 different ways besides them supposedly planting wights for the watch to find (we have no proof of that by the way).

And a much easier plan would have been to continue with the subterfuge.

[Matthew.]

From my view the only group that benefited from the NW riding out in full was Mance.

I don't disagree, but that's mainly because I think there's a bit of a Quid Pro Quo going on with Mance and the Others; not a full on alliance, but mutual benefit. When Ygritte says they loosed shades on the world, I don't think that was just superstition or hearsay, I think that's precisely what they did.

Subsequently, the Free Folk are harried just enough to herd together under the most competent leader they have in these desperate times; and, as luck would have it, he brings his army up to the Wall not long after most of the fighting men of the Watch have been dealt a serious blow at the Fist.

Unfortunately for Mance, Stannis shows up rather inconveniently--yet Mance ultimately gets what he wants anyway, thanks to Snow. The wildlings south of the Wall outnumber the Watch, their King is still alive and (maybe?) poking around for something in the Winterfell crypts, and the NK is up north collecting the stragglers, perhaps preparing for a horn blow, or to simply have the gates opened for himself and his army.

No it doesn't imo, unless you make a play for the Wall and at least have that lined up.The only one that did was Mance.If they want to do subterfuge I could think of like 4 different ways besides them supposedly planting wights for the watch to find (we have no proof of that by the way).

And a much easier plan would have been to continue with the subterfuge.

Luring the undermanned Watch into the open field makes a great deal more sense than attacking the wall, even with subterfuge; trojan wights only work once.

[wolfmaid7]

Or to run this scenario and ask for clarification on the merit of "declaring war" is coming about.

The play:

Have the NW find the bodies( eventhough the reason they found said bodies was because of Ghost).Maybe they'll burn them maybe they won't it's a 50/50.Hopefully they don't burn them and they'll rise on the Wall and if they all survive they'll ride out and meet us on the battle field? :dunno:

Play 2:

No one put them there,they were on their way back wight memory being utlized it so happns that day hit them when they were making their way back.Ghost just happened to find them because he is what he is and the NW took them in despite all the signs they shouldn't because people are dumb like that.Remove Ghost and Jon from the equation.Mormon't guard would have been wighted,Mormont would have been killed and wighted and by morning the watch because a series of unfortunate and really lucky shit conspired to have that happen.

So what i'm saying is that this was not some elaborate plan by the wws to get the watch to ride out.Had Jon and Ghost not been there.Had Ghost not been allowed to stay with Jon the watch would have been severly compromised.All because there are just somethings the wws couldn't forsee or have any control over which way it went.

[wolfmaid7]

I don't disagree, but that's mainly because I think there's a bit of a Quid Pro Quo going on with Mance and the Others; not a full on alliance, but mutual benefit. When Ygritte says they loosed shades on the world, I don't think that was just superstition or hearsay, I think that's precisely what they did.

Subsequently, the Free Folk are harried just enough to herd together under the most competent leader they have in these desperate times; and, as luck would have it, he brings his army up to the Wall not long after most of the fighting men of the Watch have been dealt a serious blow at the Fist.

Unfortunately for Mance, Stannis shows up rather inconveniently--yet Mance ultimately gets what he wants anyway, thanks to Snow. The wildlings south of the Wall outnumber the Watch, their King is still alive and (maybe?) poking around for something in the Winterfell crypts, and the NK is up north collecting the stragglers, perhaps preparing for a horn blow, or to simply have the gates opened for himself and his army.

Luring the undermanned Watch into the open field makes a great deal more sense than attacking the wall, even with subterfuge; trojan wights only work once.

Read my above posts this whole thing hinged on things the wws could not possibly forsee or have control over which way it went.It was a series of stupid actions,stupid decisions and just dumb luck that led to the wights being on the Wall.And again these series of events going further hinged on if Ghost was there,or in the cell with Jon a choice that was unfoeseeable by any external factor.In the end the whole idea about having the watch ride out would be mute seeing as they would be compromised and all any wighted individual had to do was open the gates.

Ergo to say that was a plan by the wws doesn't seem to make sense because that would be asking them to be clairvoyant with some mind control skills on the path of the watch.

[Matthew.]

The WW's benefit from the sneak attack either way; either the NW is provoked into a battle they can't possibly win, or they're thrown into disarray by a successful assassination of their LC.

Mormont may have made the grave mistake of assuming that whatever was going on was still in its early stages, that he couldn't have possibly been blind to the WWs preparing for years... but that's only if the proper reports are being allowed to make their way back to the Wall.

Edit:

Ergo to say that was a plan by the wws doesn't seem to make sense because that would be asking them to be clairvoyant with some mind control skills on the path of the watch.

Just because the plan might fail, why does that mean it doesn't make sense? At worst, Othor and Jafer are burned, and they must find some other means of dealing with the Watch.

That Othor's body might be brought back to the Wall, even under questionable circumstances, was not an unreasonable gambit; the Wildlings know to burn their dead, but the Watch is full of kneelers. Furthermore, Mormont has already had one nobleman's son go missing, a veteran go deserter, the First Ranger go missing, and he comes across the bodies of the men that rode out with Benjen--that he might bring their bodies back and look for further clues, or simply give them a proper sendoff, is not an unreasonable assumption.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

way off subject but i watched Legend with tom cruise and i think the book is based on that :) we got unicorns never ending winter because the balance of the world was thrown off. elf like kid thats really old like a child of the forest we got caves with white roots growing thru and i hero to save the day and restore balance. LOL if im right what a kick in the balls that'd be

[wolfmaid7]

The WW's benefit from the sneak attack either way; either the NW is provoked into a battle they can't possibly win, or they're thrown into disarray by a successful assassination of their LC.

Mormont may have made the grave mistake of assuming that whatever was going on was still in its early stages, that he couldn't have possibly been blind to the WWs preparing for years... but that's only if the proper reports are being allowed to make their way back to the Wall.

Edit:

Just because the plan might fail, why does that mean it doesn't make sense? At worst, Othor and Jafer are burned, and they must find some other means of dealing with the Watch.

That Othor's body might be brought back to the Wall, even under questionable circumstances, was not an unreasonable gambit; the Wildlings know to burn their dead, but the Watch is full of kneelers. Furthermore, Mormont has already had one nobleman's son go missing, a veteran go deserter, the First Ranger go missing, and he comes across the bodies of the men that rode out with Benjen--that he might bring their bodies back and look for further clues, or simply give them a proper sendoff, is not an unreasonable assumption.

What plan????? This so call hinges on internal and external factors that have nothing to do with them being controlled by them.Anyhow you slice it that's why it doesn't make sense. It would require them to know things they couldn't possibly know and control things they couldn't possibly control all to get the watch to leave!!!

if you had told me there was a plan to "turn/wight" the Watch i would have find that more believable,they could have pulled it off and wighted the whole watch and all without having the premise that they planned to draw the NW out for a fight and do nothing about the Wall.It wouldn't require them to be clairvoyant either.

[Matthew.]

It would require them to know things they couldn't possibly know and control things they couldn't possibly control all to get the watch to leave!!!

What would they need to know that they couldn't possibly know? We have no idea what the full capabilities of the Others are, or what sort of information sources they may be able to draw from - mundane or otherwise.

Again, they don't even need to succeed in accomplishing anything major here--in having Othor and Jafer act as trojan horses, the stakes are incredibly low. At worst, they lose two fighters, fighters that they 'stole' from the NW in the first place. No great loss. Maybe they're burned on sight, maybe they infiltrate and fail to kill anyone.

To say there was some sort of plan here isn't unreasonable; Othor and Jafer aren't lashing out like mindless zombies, there's deliberate purpose in their actions. Their eyes are already wight blue when they're being carted back, yet they play dead until most of the men have gone to sleep, and Othor makes a beeline for Mormont's chambers--all of this speaks of deliberation, rather than random chance.

As an aside, you seem to be suggesting that the Others would need clairvoyance to make a plan like this work in a joking sort of way, yet this is a series where there are several literal clairvoyants. If there's a magic user at the top of the Other food chain, why should they be any different? Not that I think clairvoyance is actually at work here--trying to lure your enemies into open combat seems a pretty sound strategy, when the alternative is trying to find a way to kill them from the wrong side of a 700 foot wall.

[wolfmaid7]

What would they need to know that they couldn't possibly know? We have no idea what the full capabilities of the Others are, or what sort of information sources they may be able to draw from - mundane or otherwise.

Again, they don't even need to succeed in accomplishing anything major here--in having Othor and Jafer act as trojan horses, the stakes are incredibly low. At worst, they lose two fighters, fighters that they 'stole' from the NW in the first place. No great loss. Maybe they're burned on sight, maybe they infiltrate and fail to kill anyone.

To say there was some sort of plan here isn't unreasonable; Othor and Jafer aren't lashing out like mindless zombies, there's deliberate purpose in their actions. Their eyes are already wight blue when they're being carted back, yet they play dead until most of the men have gone to sleep, and Othor makes a beeline for Mormont's chambers--all of this speaks of deliberation, rather than random chance.

As an aside, you seem to be suggesting that the Others would need clairvoyance to make a plan like this work in a joking sort of way, yet this is a series where there are several literal clairvoyants. If there's a magic user at the top of the Other food chain, why should they be any different? Not that I think clairvoyance is actually at work here--trying to lure your enemies into open combat seems a pretty sound strategy, when the alternative is trying to find a way to kill them from the wrong side of a 700 foot wall.

First, i make a joke of this because there is nothing to suggets that they are,if they did someone needs to refund their money.

Secondly,the assertion is that there was a plan by the wws to draw the NW out with Othor and Jaffar.I'm saying that is highly improbable and at best case if there was any plan by anyone it seemed more apt to infiltrate the Watch and Wight members.That would work far better than drawing them out and it seems if there was a plan that was more likely it. No claivoyance just stealt and the Trojan horse analogy would work almost the exact same way.

You ask me what they would need to know,that they coudn't possibly know. I'll get back to that

The claim that they put Othor and Jaffa to be found does not work because they were concealed far enough where had not been for Ghost getting a whiff of them they would have been knowcking at the gates and i have no doubt they would have been let in.

The Lord Steward’s garron whickered and backed away from the direwolf. “Do you mean to

take that beast?”

“Yes, my lord,” Jon said. Ghost’s head lifted. He seemed to taste the air. In the blink of an eye

he was off, racing across the broad, weedchoked field to vanish in the trees.................................

And suddenly Ghost was back, stalking softly between two weirwoods. White fur and red eyes,

Jon realized, disquieted. Like the trees...

The above i mention because it wasn't like if the NW was going to come across the bodies.

Again,it seems more likely that they were trying to infiltrate the Wall being let in and they just ran out of time when the sun rose.

To your question: They would had to have known someone was coming that way given the location of the grove of 9 it wasn't in the normal path of travel and we don't know exactly what direction and how far from there Ghost found the bodies.Which tells me they were on the move and again they just ran out of time.

I can't even answer the statement that they were playing dead to get picked up it hinges on them being found which was by chance.You say they were playing dead i say and the text alludes to this that certain factors contribute to them being mobile or not. Darkness,cold,the wind.So i can't say they were playing only that conditions didn't meet their movement capacity.Like a cold loving thermophile they got slowed by the temp and light.When they found for instance:

"The morning was unnaturally warm; beads of sweat dotted the Lord Commander’s broad

forehead like dew on a melon. His horse was nervous, rolling her eyes, backing away from the

dead men as far as her lead would allow. Jon led her off a few paces, fighting to keep her from

bolting. The horses did not like the feel of this place. For that matter, neither did Jon.

The dogs liked it least of all. Ghost had led the party here"

No wind stirred the wood; the air hung humid and heavy, and Jon’s

clothes clung to his skin. It was warm. Too warm. The Wall was weeping copiously, had been

weeping for days, and sometimes Jon even imagined it was shrinking.

The old men called this weather spirit summer, and said it meant the season was giving up its

ghosts at last. After this the cold would come, they warned, and a long summer always meant a

long winter. This summer had lasted ten years.

( I didn't think the Summer was long...crap.I like this quote it has a lot of nice crap)

Conditions changed though,night fell,it got cold and Jon noticed this cold wind blowing on the Wall.

I just realizing this so let me address, i'm saying that a plan to draw the NW out is something i don't buy. If per se (and i said this before ) the plan was to infiltrate and wight the watch that could have been accomplish without the wws,or even anyone finding them.Come nighfall they could have been let in by accident without anyone taking a real good look at them.Them being found as a plan and when is part of the issue.

So to reiterate if there was a plan i don't think drawing the Watch away from the Wall as it would require certain mental leaps.If the plan was to Wight the watch,turn them within while they were asleep.I could see that no mental leaps required.

[Matthew.]

...and at best case if there was any plan by anyone it seemed more apt to infiltrate the Watch and Wight members.

This plan is contingent upon the notion that the wights could create more wights. At the least, they'd need to kill some men before they can be raised as wights, and two wights, even with the ability to grow their ranks exponentially, couldn't possibly kill a significant enough proportion of the NW before they're taken down. On the other hand, assassinating the LC is a job that could be pulled off by two wights. And, even if they had started killing men, I would say it's far from clear that the magic to raise more men as wights would work on that side of the Wall--it may be the case that the only reason Othor and Jafer could circumvent the Wall is because they were brought to the other side by brothers of the Watch (or brought through by Jon Snow/Stark?).

To your question: They would had to have known someone was coming that way given the location of the grove of 9 it wasn't in the normal path of travel and we don't know exactly what direction and how far from there Ghost found the bodies.Which tells me they were on the move and again they just ran out of time.

Two things: first of all, they need not have been 'placed' at the weirwood grove. They could have been headed toward the Wall, and simply run into the men coming to take their oaths, and been made to play dead on the spot; Sam notes that there's no blood in the area where their bodies are found, only on their clothing.

Second, even if they were placed, a weirwood grove is a far from inconspicuous location, and this is what Mormont says of the discovery:

"Two of our brothers butchered almost within sight of the Wall, yet your rangers heard nothing, saw nothing. Is this what the Night's Watch has fallen to? Do we still sweep these woods?" Thus, to say it's not the normal path of travel doesn't seem particularly consistent with what Mormont is implying here. With a bit of patience, the bodies could have reasonably been discovered; cold preserves.

i'm saying that a plan to draw the NW out is something i don't buy.

Royce is missing, Benjen is missing, and Mormont tells Tyrion that other rangers have either gone dead or missing as well; dead, blue-eyed men walking is the straw that broke the camel's back. The net totality of disturbing circumstances cannot be ignored. For clarity, I've been saying the NW was 'provoked,' which is poor word choice; more accurately, they were lured.

The purpose of the Great Ranging is to gather information, and to find the missing rangers; Mormont cannot possibly know how terrible the danger is that they're riding into, which is kind of the point: The Watch has become ignorant. Mormont has already sent his best man to gather information, and even he's gone missing; he barely even knows what's going on at the nearest Wildling village, White Tree.

Without riding out in force, as in the Great Ranging, it will be difficult to scout too deeply without meeting an unpleasant end on the weapon of some Wildling looking to make a name for themselves; thus Mormont's undermanned Watch is relying on rangers working in a limited radius, and receiving dubious information from supposedly amenable Wildlings...like Craster.

_______________________

After what happened with Othor, Mormont's left with a choice: stay the present course, which is failing; turtle up behind the Wall, and become even more ignorant of potentially significant events transpiring to the north; or gather up a large enough host to scout deeper, do his duty, and find out just how much danger might truly be looming over the realm.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

way off subject but i watched Legend with tom cruise and i think the book is based on that :) we got unicorns never ending winter because the balance of the world was thrown off. elf like kid thats really old like a child of the forest we got caves with white roots growing thru and i hero to save the day and restore balance. LOL if im right what a kick in the balls that'd be

Never heard of it. Is it worth a watch?

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

ummm if you smoke and enjoy 80's movies i'd say go for it. Kidding about the smoking part( kinda) its not horrible as far as fantasy movies in the 80's go lol

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

WOLFMAID makes a good point about it being chance that Ghost found the dead rangers so unless someone is telling Ghost where to go and i highly doubt that i think the purpose of those zombie rangers was to further the story along and give us a quick glimpse into whats to come. I dont think the books will ever delve into this at all specifically.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

ummm if you smoke and enjoy 80's movies i'd say go for it. Kidding about the smoking part( kinda) its not horrible as far as fantasy movies in the 80's go lol

Well, a flagon of pale ale might go nicely with it. If it's better than Labyrinth with David Bowie then I would give it a go.

WOLFMAID makes a good point about it being chance that Ghost found the dead rangers so unless someone is telling Ghost where to go and i highly doubt that i think the purpose of those zombie rangers was to further the story along and give us a quick glimpse into whats to come. I dont think the books will ever delve into this at all specifically.

I don't know about coincidence, but I agree we'll never get an answer. The two wightified Watchmen may have shown up just outside the gate at Castle Black to be found. :dunno:, although coincidences may not come into it; The direwolf pups, Coldhands at the Black Gate at just the right time with Sam in tow, The Watch at the Fist with an army of wights nearby etc. (On the side, how did the all these wights end up there without a leader(s) ?)

[Srecan]

Then let it boggle you as always there is two sides of looking at things and my side is different but no less valid.

No matter how many ways you cut it i can pick behaviors from their interactions that put us to shame.But when it comes to this.

1.You nor i nor Will knows their language we cannot say that what they did was actual laughter or that it was mocking. No matter how it sounded to Will the only base he has for that conclusion again is human.

2. Behind him, to right, to left, all around him, the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood. Yet they made no move to interfere."

Alright then why didn't the rest interfere? They are savage are they not why wait until...Waymar was done for

3.And he was done for it....We can't judge why at this moment when it was clear that Waymar was not going to last all 6 of them decided to do that together.BC is right in that there are aspects of it that mirrors medival style. It was a savage time if they chose to poke him in the heart in an environment where we have men flaying people,and cleaving them in two ,cutting their heads off i'd be shocked.

I'm saying what they did was better than leaving Waymar bleeding out for Will to try to make it to the Wall with him.He would have died and done so more painfully along the way.

MO that isn't going to change.

Maybe they just didnt want to leave him dieing slowly (or didnt choped his head) because they needed him as whight.