Heresy 142 [World of Ice and Fire spoilers]

[Voice]

I think we're arguing at cross-purposes here because I'm not casting them as strategists at all. Rather when I suggest that they are creating the illusion of a threat they are doing so at the behest of their master not as something they have dreamed up all by themselves, which is why I keep suggesting that we should not be getting hung up on Craster's boys per say but rather trying to figure out who is behind them.

:agree: 100%

The first I think is broadly in line with what some of us are suggesting.

As to Craster this is very much at the heart of Heresy. Craster considers himself a godly man and gives up his sons as a willing sacrifice because it is his duty. What's significant here is the wording. Ygritte doesn't say he is accursed by the gods as a kinslayer, but instead says that he "bears a heavy curse" which suggests that it is a curse which he has inherited and we have speculated in the past that he is akin to a sin-eater; the other Wildlings know what he does but far from turning up with flaming torches and pitchforks they leave him be and perhaps even supply the wives who are not his daughters because by his giving his sons to the Gods, they don't have to.

ETA: and his so peremptorily dealing with Mance's messenger - who is conspicuously unavenged - suggests not only that he considers himself safe, as he tells Mormont, but may also know what Mance is really up to. After all its his sons who are doing the dirty work.

I see the reasoning here. But honestly, I feel like Mance and Craster are extremely transparent characters. I think Mance is just a normal crow come over and is trying to herd his people to safety. I think Craster is just a pervert, and accursed in the same way Lord Frey is accursed - for deplorable acts, rather than some arcane mystical purpose. Call me uncreative, but for me, we've been shown naught in the text to imply they have any ulterior motives nor secret layers of decision making being withheld.

[Black Crow]

I get what you're saying i don't agree with it though and that's because with respect to Othor and Jaffa's presence they need not have been "dropped of/delivered/set" by wws to do what they were being driven to do.That to me was the unessaccery part ,saying that the wws planted them there at that spot( when in all likeihood they got there because they walked and just went dormant because what moves them couldn't operate in a warm,light environment) was to much of a leap in context.To reiterate i don't think it was about "drawing" the Watch out for anything,but this seemed more apt to enslave the Watch during the night while most everyone was asleep.

Nah, again I think we're still at cross-purposes. The wights and white walkers are associated and we're specifically told that the walkers lead armies of the slain, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they lead them by the hand everywhere they go and there's no reason to suppose that one of them "planted" Othor and Jafer where they were found. Quite the contrary, rather I'd see it as more evidence that there is someone else behind this; here sending Craster's boys out to pick off Mormont's patrols; there sending a couple of homicidal wights to Castle Black as a direct provocation.

[Black Crow]

I see the reasoning here. But honestly, I feel like Mance and Craster are extremely transparent characters. I think Mance is just a normal crow come over and is trying to herd his people to safety. I think Craster is just a pervert, and accursed in the same way Lord Frey is accursed - for deplorable acts, rather than some arcane mystical purpose. Call me uncreative, but for me, we've been shown naught in the text to imply they have any ulterior motives nor secret layers of decision making being withheld.

We'd need to dig back through past heresies but we did have some pretty deep discussion of Craster back in the day and how he did seem to be honestly describing himself as a godly man - and that was because he bore that heavy curse, condemned to give up his sons, that he had grown bitter and vicious rather than that he was cursed because he was evil mean and nasty. The suggestion that he was killing off his sons to prevent them growing up and challenging him is laughable because Craster is a farmer and what he really wants is big strapping sons to take over the hard work and keep their old Dad comfortable in his wicked old age. Instead, without exception he gives them up to the gods.

[Voice]

I get what you're saying i don't agree with it though and that's because with respect to Othor and Jaffa's presence they need not have been "dropped of/delivered/set" by wws to do what they were being driven to do.That to me was the unessaccery part ,saying that the wws planted them there at that spot( when in all likeihood they got there because they walked and just went dormant because what moves them couldn't operate in a warm,light environment) was to much of a leap in context.To reiterate i don't think it was about "drawing" the Watch out for anything,but this seemed more apt to enslave the Watch during the night while most everyone was asleep.

It cannot be denied that Othor and Jafer made their way to within sight of the Wall. The manner in which they arrived is deliberately mysterious, of course, but textual evidence exists to support the notion of them being sent to the Wall by white walkers. We are told in the books they lead hosts of the slain. Who might those slain be if not wights?

I'm reminded of Samwell I (Chapter 18) in ASOS, where Sam is in shock and struggling to walk away from the attack on the Fist.

Maslyn screamed for mercy. Why had he suddenly remembered that? It was nothing he wanted to remember. The man had stumbled backward, dropping his sword, pleading, yielding, even yanking off his thick black glove and thrusting it up before him as if it were a gauntlet. He was still shrieking for quarter as the wight lifted him in the air by the throat and near ripped the head off him. The dead have no mercy left in them, and the Others . . . no, I mustn't think of that, don't think, don't remember, just walk, just walk, just walk.

Again, it takes a far greater leap of the imagination to conjure unwritten character development for white walkers in which they are not leading wights to attack the NW at the Fist. It's what they do, per Martin.

[wolfmaid7]

Nah, again I think we're still at cross-purposes. The wights and white walkers are associated and we're specifically told that the walkers lead armies of the slain, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they lead them by the hand everywhere they go and there's no reason to suppose that one of them "planted" Othor and Jafer where they were found. Quite the contrary, rather I'd see it as more evidence that there is someone else behind this; here sending Craster's boys out to pick off Mormont's patrols; there sending a couple of homicidal wights to Castle Black as a direct provocation.

The relationship between the Wights and WWs is something we are still going to be at odds on and seeing as that suppossed relationship is tied to all wight attacks i'll leave that. Now i don't know if the wws are enslaved themselves or not but i remained convinced that what ever relationship they do have is not master servant. I agree with you and have been saying this that Othor and Jaffar and that situation is above the wws pay grade.An again the homcidal wights characterization may be a bit much seeing as in that case had they succeed and they would have the Watch might have been blue eyed and the watch riding out would be a non issue. And that is where i differ that in light of that if it was a plan to send the Wights to the watch to take them from within they'd be no reason to "draw the out"

[Voice]

We'd need to dig back through past heresies but we did have some pretty deep discussion of Craster back in the day and how he did seem to be honestly describing himself as a godly man - and that was because he bore that heavy curse, condemned to give up his sons, that he had grown bitter and vicious rather than that he was cursed because he was evil mean and nasty. The suggestion that he was killing off his sons to prevent them growing up and challenging him is laughable because Craster is a farmer and what he really wants is big strapping sons to take over the hard work and keep their old Dad comfortable in his wicked old age. Instead, without exception he gives them up to the gods.

That doesn't sound much like text-Craster, in my book ;) And leaves us with the issue, once again, of pre-Craster Craster-sons.

I don't buy the hapless farmer angle at all. Craster has an inexhaustible supply of wives and daughters to tend his sheep.

[Black Crow]

That doesn't sound much like text-Craster, in my book ;) And leaves us with the issue, once again, of pre-Craster Craster-sons.

That's the point of him bearing a heavy curse rather than being accursed. Its something he's inherited. The walkers have always been around, discretely, but of late more and more sons have been demanded of Craster as though someone is gearing up for conflict in the same way that the Red priests have only come door-stepping within the last hundred years.

[wolfmaid7]

It cannot be denied that Othor and Jafer made their way to within sight of the Wall. The manner in which they arrived is deliberately mysterious, of course, but textual evidence exists to support the notion of them being sent to the Wall by white walkers. We are told in the books they lead hosts of the slain. Who might those slain be if not wights?

I'm reminded of Samwell I (Chapter 18) in ASOS, where Sam is in shock and struggling to walk away from the attack on the Fist.

Maslyn screamed for mercy. Why had he suddenly remembered that? It was nothing he wanted to remember. The man had stumbled backward, dropping his sword, pleading, yielding, even yanking off his thick black glove and thrusting it up before him as if it were a gauntlet. He was still shrieking for quarter as the wight lifted him in the air by the throat and near ripped the head off him. The dead have no mercy left in them, and the Others . . . no, I mustn't think of that, don't think, don't remember, just walk, just walk, just walk.

Again, it takes a far greater leap of the imagination to conjure unwritten character development for white walkers in which they are not leading wights to attack the NW at the Fist. It's what they do, per Martin.

We've been through this before Sam was clearly seeing wights and thinking Others because we have textual evidence of what he saw and what he reported that he saw.It is the same reason behind blowing the horn.Do you actually believe they saw wws and blew the horns.No they saw wights thought Others and blew the horn.

"Do you think the Wights are gone?" Sam asked Grenn

Why don't they come finish us?"

"They only come when it's cold "

Yes" said Sam ,but is it the cold that brings the Wights or the Wights that bring the cold?"(Sam,asos,pg.448-449).

"He emerged beneath a sky the color of white lead. A snow sky, Sam thought, squinting up. The

prospect made him uneasy. He remembered that night on the Fist of the First Men when the

wights and the snows had come together.(affc sam chpt 5)"

In,addition Sam when reporting via letters to CB per Mormont's request made no mention of Others because he did not see them there. In fact the very first time we are absolutely sure Sam saw an "Other" is when Ser Puddles came up on them. We know this by Sam's language in addressing seeing Ser Puddles at the moment and when he was speaking to Grenn. Evidence

"On its back was a rider pale as ice........The Other slid gracefully from the saddle to stand uponthe snow (ASOS,pg,251).

"That Dragonglass kills them ,maybe they won't come at all.........

Sam wish he could believe that.........The dagger melted that pale thing in the woods."

We see here the process of Sam's thinking both quotes tells us two things.

That was the first time Sam saw something that looked like that and he deduced that it was an Other.Read pg 241-249.

I only try to encourage thinking with this regard because the other doesn't make sense .Its the same thing with R+=J. We can't say anything is difinative. I don't know if they were there,you don't know if they weren't. i'm saying there is no eye witness account,no evidence that they were seen or leading Wight attacks on the Fist,when they attacked Sam and Giily,in the Dance prologue when Thistle and V6 met the horde,when Bran and Co encountered the buried horde. It is impossible to say that and more proof Nan's story may be not the whole truth.

Even,even if wws are there given their appearance and given the fact that what comes with these wights is some serious weather problems and according to BC the WWs must be in the back driving them.Those conditions in itself makes it impossible that they could be seen.At the back of hundreds of Wights in a blizzard with camo that is perfect,perfect.

I can't say they weren't there,you can't say that they were.No one can say that given those conditions they can be seen because they are bone white with refelective wear. I stand by what i said.

Sam like everyone else is seeing wights and thinking Others.

[Voice]

That's the point of him bearing a heavy curse rather than being accursed. Its something he's inherited. The walkers have always been around, discretely, but of late more and more sons have been demanded of Craster as though someone is gearing up for conflict in the same way that the Red priests have only come door-stepping within the last hundred years.

I get it. I just don't see it. We've nothing to suggest Craster inherited his Keep, nor that the tradition you imply ever existed. And wasn't Craster the red herring several Heresies ago? The role you ascribe him seems far too pivotal, in my opinion.

[Black Crow]

That was Addicted to Whatever who saw him as a red herring :cool4:

I wouldn't describe him as pivotal at all. He isn't and never was a major character, except in so far as he provided the link that told us the white walkers were not an alien race but human changelings and that therefore the threat they represented wasn't an external one but instead lies much closer to home.

ETA: and with that, to bed, good night all.

[Voice]

Sam like everyone else is seeing wights and thinking Others.

Nope. The difference between wights and Others is quite clear for Samwell...

"Do you think the wights are gone?" Sam asked Grenn. "Why don't they come finish us?"

"They only come when it's cold."

"Yes," said Sam, "but is it the cold that brings the wights, or the wights that bring the cold?"

"Who cares?" Grenn's axe sent wood chips flying. "They come together, that's what matters. Hey, now that we know that dragonglass kills them, maybe they won't come at all. Maybe they're frightened of us now!"

Sam wished he could believe that, but it seemed to him that when you were dead, fear had no more meaning than pain or love or duty. He wrapped his hands around his legs, sweating under his layers of wool and leather and fur. The dragonglass dagger had melted the pale thing in the woods, true . . . but Grenn was talking like it would do the same to the wights. We don't know that, he thought.

Of course, we can simply choose to deny things Martin has written. Or even better, we can substitute Martin's plots and backstory for our own, and insert ones we like better. But if we do those things, why bother reading the books at all?

[Voice]

That was Addicted to Whatever who saw him as a red herring :cool4:

I wouldn't describe him as pivotal at all. He isn't and never was a major character, except in so far as he provided the link that told us the white walkers were not an alien race but human changelings and that therefore the threat they represented wasn't an external one but instead lies much closer to home.

ETA: and with that, to bed, good night all.

My bad haha, g'night

[wolfmaid7]

Nope. The difference between wights and Others is quite clear for Samwell...

"Do you think the wights are gone?" Sam asked Grenn. "Why don't they come finish us?"

"They only come when it's cold."

"Yes," said Sam, "but is it the cold that brings the wights, or the wights that bring the cold?"

"Who cares?" Grenn's axe sent wood chips flying. "They come together, that's what matters. Hey, now that we know that dragonglass kills them, maybe they won't come at all. Maybe they're frightened of us now!"

Sam wished he could believe that, but it seemed to him that when you were dead, fear had no more meaning than pain or love or duty. He wrapped his hands around his legs, sweating under his layers of wool and leather and fur. The dragonglass dagger had melted the pale thing in the woods, true . . . but Grenn was talking like it would do the same to the wights. We don't know that, he thought.

Of course, we can simply choose to deny things Martin has written. Or even better, we can substitute Martin's plots and backstory for our own, and insert ones we like better. But if we do those things, why bother reading the books at all?

What are you talking about,really what are you talking about? Sam's ability to tell the difference is not in question.What he saw when he did is. THAT is the arguement we have been having what does the the above have to do with the crux of the arguement.He makes no mention of Others because he did not see them not because he couldn't tell "the pale thing in the woods" from Wights.

That's crystal clear. Him and Grenn were speaking only about wights because that is what they saw and ONLY what they saw.

Sam's reaction to Ser Puddles and how he reffered to him is proof, "that" moment was when he first saw an Other.

That arguement you just threw in there is a Red Herring because i am not questioning Sam's ability to tell a Wight from an Other.

[Voice]

That arguement you just threw in there is a Red Herring because i am not questioning Sam's ability to tell a Wight from an Other.

Only 44 minutes earlier...

Sam like everyone else is seeing wights and thinking Others.

Wow.

[Matthew.]

As to Craster this is very much at the heart of Heresy. Craster considers himself a godly man and gives up his sons as a willing sacrifice because it is his duty. What's significant here is the wording. Ygritte doesn't say he is accursed by the gods as a kinslayer, but instead says that he "bears a heavy curse" which suggests that it is a curse which he has inherited and we have speculated in the past that he is akin to a sin-eater; the other Wildlings know what he does but far from turning up with flaming torches and pitchforks they leave him be and perhaps even supply the wives who are not his daughters because by his giving his sons to the Gods, they don't have to.

I agree that this is broadly what Craster believes himself to be doing, and that Mance is shielding him by telling others that Craster is bearing this burden on their behalf.

On the other hand, I'm less certain that it's a position he inherited; I believe there may have been a very long stretch where nobody was forced to give up their sons to the 'gods.' Indeed, I believe this is one of the core reasons why Joramun was so keen to be rid of the NK in the first place.

No particular text-based reason for this assumption, I just think that 'mundane' WWs like Craster's sons are reliant on a NK to raise more, and I believe the fellow acting as their NK (for now) was dormant for a rather long stretch.

Or, if you're not so fond of the notion that the 13th LC is back in action and making new WWs, the current NK might alternately be a 'placeholder' NK, elevated by someone else (the Singers?) to get things going while they wait until Jon is ready for prime time.

[Voice]

I agree that this is broadly what Craster believes himself to be doing, and that Mance is shielding him by telling others that Craster is bearing this burden on their behalf.

On the other hand, I'm less certain that it's a position he inherited; I believe there may have been a very long stretch where nobody was forced to give up their sons to the 'gods.' Indeed, I believe this is one of the core reasons why Joramun was so keen to be rid of the NK in the first place.

No particular text-based reason for this assumption, I just think that 'mundane' WWs like Craster's sons are reliant on a NK to raise more, and I believe the fellow acting as their NK (for now) was dormant for a rather long stretch.

Or, if you're not so fond of the notion that the 13th LC is back in action and making new WWs, the current NK might alternately be a 'placeholder' NK, elevated by someone else (the Singers?) to get things going while they wait until Jon is ready for prime time.

Agreed. A while back I posted a new, more specific, nomenclature and classification of Others that may fall in line with your reasoning, I think...

I. The Ancient Others of the Long Night

Old Nan said...

1. They can smell hot blood

2. They come without sound

3. They stalk with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds

4. They invaded the hundred kingdoms of the First Men

(I think this proves they are more intelligent than WW)

And thanks to Samwell, we can add more to this list...

5. They may ride giant ice-spiders

The horn blew thrice long, three long blasts means Others. The white walkers of the wood, the cold shadows, the monsters of the tales that made him squeak and tremble as a boy, riding their giant ice-spiders, hungry for blood . . .

(Samwell I - ASOS)

"Some accounts speak of giant ice spiders too. I don't know what those are..."

(Samwell I - AFFC)

6. They may be vulnerable to dragonsteel

"I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it."

(Samwell I - AFFC)

And last but not least, from Bran...

7. They can be female or male

8. They can have sex

9. They have eyes like bright blue stars

As the sun began to set the shadows of the towers lengthened and the wind blew harder, sending gusts of dry dead leaves rattling through the yards. The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, "for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars.Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

(Bran III - ASOS)

Now, for me the distinction between the Others described above and the white walkers below is quite obvious. We've seen white walkers. We have never seen an Ancient Other who rides a giant ice-spider, and/or stalks prey with packs of white spiders as big as hounds. And we've never seen a white walker that can seduce a man. I'm sure we'd all remember that :)

II. White Walkers

1. They appear as white shadows in the woods

2. They ride dead things (as we have already seen in ASOS)

Some stories speak of them riding the corpses of dead animals. Bears, direwolves, mammoths, horses, it makes no matter, so long as the beast is dead. The one that killed Small Paul was riding a dead horse, so that part's plainly true.

(Samwell I AFFC)

3. They can be killed with dragonglass

4. They cannot be killed with fire

5. They do not stalk with white spiders, nor ride giant ice-spiders

6. They have a language and social structure

7. They carry magical longswords that shatter steel

8. Men who fall in battle to them will rise as Wights if not burned

i. Ser Waymar and Small Paul, for example.

ii. Men who fall in battle against the Others must be burned, or else the dead will rise again as their thralls."

(Samwell I - AFFC)

9. They may all be male

I think this ties in with CS.

10. They melt when killed

11. They have eyes like bright blue stars

I would add that they seem to use Cold as a weapon, and can quickly make a people freeze to death before they have a chance to make a fire, but I don't want to get back into the honor code debate :)

III. Wights

1. They rise from Men who fall in battle to a white walker

2. They do not ride anything, dead or spider-like

3. They are slow and clumsy

4. They have a queer cold scent that panics animals

5. They will keep moving even when dismembered

6. They retain enough memory to hold a grudge

7. They can be killed with fire, and are highly flammable

8. They cannot be killed with dragonglass

9. They have eyes like bright blue stars

It is my contention that we have only seen the latter two varieties thus far in the novels -- white walkers and wights -- and that the true struggle will begin when the first variety appears on page. In my mind, the first variety -- Old Others, Original Others, or Ancient Others -- are likely composed of NK and his retinue of 12 lords commander.

[wolfmaid7]

Only 44 minutes earlier...

Wow.

No i didn't,what???? I said he deduced that it was an Other, which is a correct statement seeing as he's never seen an Other prior to that. No one South of the Wall has.Also,if we accept that what Sam saw and what Waymar saw are WWs.( I believe and have said before the term Other is a poor representation or not an accurate description it being a blanket term is the problem).Sam like everyone else saw the Wight hordes and whoopie "Others". Its not accurate at all. I think there are wws which is what Sam and Waymar saw and that term Other which people use whenever they see something strage and not human.

"That Dragonglass kills them ,maybe they won't come at all.........

Sam wish he could believe that.........The dagger melted that pale thing in the woods."

We see here the process of Sam's thinking both quotes tells us two things.

That was the first time Sam saw something that looked like that and he deduced that it was an Other.Read pg 241-249.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

It is my contention that we have only seen the latter two varieties thus far in the novels -- white walkers and wights -- and that the true struggle will begin when the first variety appears on page. In my mind, the first variety -- Old Others, Original Others, or Ancient Others -- are likely composed of NK and his retinue of 12 lords commander.

So you think we have WW's wights and super WW's i like it a lot but i doubt its the case

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

crappy quote job above sorry but i think it'd be very late int he story to introduce a new set of "bad guys"

[Matthew.]

Agreed. A while back I posted a new, more specific, nomenclature and classification of Others that may fall in line with your reasoning, I think...

I would say your three classes of 'Other' are not far off from the way I'm viewing the 'Other hierarchy.'

Martin described the Others as being like the Sidhe made of ice, and I think that's very specifically referring to the things we've come to think of as White Walkers, or Craster's sons. As opposed to the way they're represented in the show, I'm imagining them as something light, agile, and beautiful--and also unmistakably inhuman. While they may start their life as a human offering, I think by the time they reach whatever their equivalent of adulthood is, they're essentially something more foreign, a construct; thus why they speak the True Tongue, and literally melt upon being injured by obsidian.

By contrast, there's the upper hierarchy, your Ancient Others; which I think may number as many as 13, or as few as 1, depending on how a new NK is chosen, and what happens to the former NK.

Regardless of almost all other disagreements in this thread, quite a few people (myself included) seem to think Jon is likely our next Night's King. To me, this doesn't mean he'll become like one of the standard WWs, but more like the Pale Woman of the NK legend; pale, cold to the touch, and with burning blue eyes, but still more human in appearance than Craster's sons.

This may be over-complicating matters, to assume there's a whole other tier of Others, but I think what's happening there is a rough parallel to something we've seen before: Bran eating his weirwood paste, and Dany drinking the Shade of the Evening. I think, when it's Jon's time to 'convert,' he'll be taking in some form of Ice Communion; just as Bran was innately gifted, but needed the Weirwood paste to open his third eye, Jon's blood gives him the raw tools he needs to be the NK, he just needs the proper catalyst to open his blue eyes.