Heresy 142 [World of Ice and Fire spoilers]

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I do not mean to be too much a devil's advocate, but Men, too, may have slitted eyes. So, this particular weirwood's face seems no less humanlike...

Fair enough. But if you do a word search for slitted eyes in ADWD, what you find is a list consisting primarily of cats and Singers. Two exceptions being that tree on the island near the crofter's village, and one description of Stannis from Asha Greyjoy's POV. Weirwood faces in godswoods are typically described as having the appearance of the corresponding human household. No other weirwoods in any of the books so far have been described as having slitted eyes - though the early FM were said to have considered the faces representative of demons...

[Black Crow]

I'd also add that size and slitted eyes apart the children are reasonably human in shape. Things like dappled skin obviously won't carry over into a weirwood face so unless its a stunning work of art and Uncle Fred to the life a face is going to appear as just a face irrespective of origin and its the expressions of those faces in the north grove depicting the willing and the unwilling which suggests sacrifice.

[Black Crow]

Agreed, I hope I didn't imply I believed them to be an invading army. Gregor Clegane's ravaging of the Riverlands was not mere happenstance however, but an orchestrated part of Tywin's strategy.

The "southron ambitions" bit was meant to be tongue in cheek, but the matter of Others venturing further South as the Cold moves South is not a matter of opinion, in my opinion ;)

There's no doubting that the cold makes it possible to move south without melting but there is a distinction, as we're agreed, between moving south intent on conquest and ravaging the countryside by way of strategy as Gregor Clegane did in the Riverlands. The point being if Clegane did what he did at Lord Tywin's command whether that command was explicit or deniably implicit, who is using Craster's boys and why?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Although most people outside of Heresy talk in terms of the Others invading to take over Westeros this doesn't actually sound like that at all. There are clearly not very many of them and the destroying of the heroes and of the armies is accomplished not by armies of white walkers but by a few of them leading armies of the slain. What's really being described is not an invasion by a people or even a tribe with southern ambitions but Gregor Clegane's ravaging of the Riverlands.

Perhaps the analogy works better if we consider the Others (cold demons made of ice) the equivalents of Tywin Lannister, Stannis Baratheon, and Roose Bolton - all described as cold, hard men who command from the rear, sending monsters and shadows into the field to do their dirty work.

.

[MaesterSam]

OK, I'm up and about and things have moved on a bit so forgive me if I don't respond individually to posts.

First as to the weirwood faces; although I don't have the reference to hand Wolfmaid is correct in recalling somebody coming across one with not a quite human face and my own recollection is that it was in a fairly remote location or at least remote from men. What's more important I think is that very unusual grove of nine trees just north of Castle Black [which I suspect to be one and the same with the grove mentioned in the new game] which is unique for its size and in which no two faces are the same, some smiling, some serene, others angry and at least one screaming, which is why I suggest that the faces are not carved at all, whether with obsidian, bronze or iron, but instead the trees take on the faces of those sacrificed to them - and if that's so it also means that the Pact was sealed on the Isle of Faces not with handshaking but a significant blood sacrifice.

Haven't heard that one before... but I like it. Come to think of it, we've never seen one looking peaceful or happy, have we? (Edit: yes, we have, in the grove. So either a willing sacrifice, or else the faces are carved after all)

This theory also puts a somewhat disturbing spin on the fact that most of the faces are human, not CotF....

What is also interesting is how the wildlings are carving faces into (non-weirwood) trees south of the Wall now. I wonder if this actually helps the old gods (aka BR & Bran) see through those trees' eyes, or if the wildlings don't really know what they are doing and it's more a symbolic gesture to show their old gods they still follow them even though they were forced to burn the weirwood pieces to get across the Wall. It sounds to me that what you are suggesting is that blood sacrifice is needed to 'activate' a weirwood; it gives it a face which the GS can then use to observe the world. (I'm pretty sure many people believe a sacrifice is needed for activation, regardless of whether the face is created this way or was carved earlier). So I would guess without a blood sacrifice and using the wrong tree, the wildlings aren't really doing Bran any favors but rather being rebellious against Mel and R'hllor.

Now about the long night and the Others... I agree completely that they aren't any worse than many humans we have already encountered. In fact, we don't hear anything about them torturing people just for fun (Ramsey, Joffrey) or nailing people to crosses to die in the sun (Mereenese masters, Dany). There also aren't any reports of rape, though some wildling women apparently "lay with them" voluntarily.

I will take it one step further and suggest that what they are accused of doing may itself be exaggerated. Below are two passages from ADWD, where first Quentin and then Jorah are being given descriptions of Daenerys from sources in Yunkai and Volantis, respectively. (Both are cities she defeated- just as the Others apparently defeated much of Westeros. Losers tend to vilify those who defeat them, naturally). You can see that both accounts claim that she feeds human flesh (babies, even) to her dragons, just as the Others were said to have fed it to their wights. Now we know that this is a gross exaggeration; we only know of one child being eaten by a dragon, and Dany was as horrified as anyone and has since done everything in her power to prevent it from happening again.

So while the wights clearly do tend to kill whoever they run into (much like Drogon will snack on whoever looks good at the moment), I'm not sure we can hold the Others responsible for everything any wight has ever done. It's certainly possible that some babies were eaten during the long night, but did the Others command it? Were they even able to prevent it? Maybe the wights are a somewhat unpredictable weapon that make it difficult to minimize collateral damage (much like the Dothraki will be if Dany does indeed unleash them on Westeros). Warfare in a medieval world is going to cause massive civilian casualties even by the armies of the "good guys", and I think GRRM has really gone out of his way to drive that point home again and again.

Wed her or fight her; either way, I will face her soon. The more Quentyn heard of Daenerys Targaryen, the more he feared that meeting. The Yunkai’i claimed that she fed her dragons on human flesh and bathed in the blood of virgins to keep her skin smooth and supple. Beans laughed at that but relished the tales of the silver queen’s promiscuity. “One of her captains comes of a line where the men have footlong members,” he told them, “but even he’s not big enough for her. She rode with the Dothraki and grew accustomed to being fucked by stallions, so now no man can fill her.” And Books, the clever Volantene swordsman who always seemed to have his nose poked in some crumbly scroll, thought the dragon queen both murderous and mad. “Her khal killed her brother to make her queen. Then she killed her khal to make herself khaleesi. She practices blood sacrifice, lies as easily as she breathes, turns against her own on a whim. She’s broken truces, tortured envoys … her father was mad too. It runs in the blood.”

The old woman’s smile turned feral. “I have heard it said that the silver queen feeds them with the flesh of infants while she herself bathes in the blood of virgin girls and takes a different lover every night.”

Just a quick note- I wonder where the rumor about bathing in virgin blood comes from?? Some of the others are at least loosely based on something that actually happened (though exaggerated to the point of being untruthful), but I can't remember Dany ever harming any virgin anywhere, let alone have unusual bathing rituals?

[MaesterSam]

Perhaps the analogy works better if we consider the Others (cold demons made of ice) the equivalents of Tywin Lannister, Stannis Baratheon, and Roose Bolton - all described as cold, hard men who command from the rear, sending monsters and shadows into the field to do their dirty work.

.

Yes! What if there is a whole parallel society up North, with the Others as the lords and the dead as the smallfolk who are ignored until they are needed to go die in some battle. Of course they don't all live and hang out up there between long nights, but I like the idea of a few players who move the pieces around as it suits them. For the sake of efficiency, they don't maintain a standing army but simply "recruit" from among their enemies when they do go to war (and apparently some old wights lie dormant beneath the ice, ready to wake up as needed). This saves them the trouble of having to feed and house their subjects between wars, and also eliminates the risk of rebellions.... in a way it's kinder, really, to not send more living men into battle but use those that are already dead.

[DarkRose_9]

Now about the long night and the Others... I agree completely that they aren't any worse than many humans we have already encountered. In fact, we don't hear anything about them torturing people just for fun (Ramsey, Joffrey) or nailing people to crosses to die in the sun (Mereenese masters, Dany). There also aren't any reports of rape, though some wildling women apparently "lay with them" voluntarily.

I will take it one step further and suggest that what they are accused of doing may itself be exaggerated. Below are two passages from ADWD, where first Quentin and then Jorah are being given descriptions of Daenerys from sources in Yunkai and Volantis, respectively. (Both are cities she defeated- just as the Others apparently defeated much of Westeros. Losers tend to vilify those who defeat them, naturally). You can see that both accounts claim that she feeds human flesh (babies, even) to her dragons, just as the Others were said to have fed it to their wights. Now we know that this is a gross exaggeration; we only know of one child being eaten by a dragon, and Dany was as horrified as anyone and has since done everything in her power to prevent it from happening again.

So while the wights clearly do tend to kill whoever they run into (much like Drogon will snack on whoever looks good at the moment), I'm not sure we can hold the Others responsible for everything any wight has ever done. It's certainly possible that some babies were eaten during the long night, but did the Others command it? Were they even able to prevent it? Maybe the wights are a somewhat unpredictable weapon that make it difficult to minimize collateral damage (much like the Dothraki will be if Dany does indeed unleash them on Westeros). Warfare in a medieval world is going to cause massive civilian casualties even by the armies of the "good guys", and I think GRRM has really gone out of his way to drive that point home again and again.

Just a quick note- I wonder where the rumor about bathing in virgin blood comes from?? Some of the others are at least loosely based on something that actually happened (though exaggerated to the point of being untruthful), but I can't remember Dany ever harming any virgin anywhere, let alone have unusual bathing rituals?

You bring up an interesting point, for which we have precedent in real life. Richard III is a particularly interesting example, and he is often described as an incompetent ruler with physical deformations, and is even painted as such in his portraits, but some historians argue that this portrayal of Richard III was deliberately construed by the Tudors who followed Richard III, pointing to contemporary accounts that paint the king in a more positive light.

Additionally, I once attended a debate that sought to prove that Richard's paintings were altered after his death, to add a hunch and that his physical issues were all lies (side note, they found his body, and while I haven't been up-to-date on the analysis they did , that should be interesting as well; I'm merely referencing the written/drawn records we have). All this, and Richard lived far more recently in relation to the 21st century than the Others did to current Westeros.

[Black Crow]

Just a quick note- I wonder where the rumor about bathing in virgin blood comes from?? Some of the others are at least loosely based on something that actually happened (though exaggerated to the point of being untruthful), but I can't remember Dany ever harming any virgin anywhere, let alone have unusual bathing rituals?

In real life its the kind of story they used to tell about the Hungarian Countess Bathory - apparently did wonders for her complexion.

[Black Crow]

You bring up an interesting point, for which we have precedent in real life. Richard III is a particularly interesting example, and he is often described as an incompetent ruler with physical deformations, and is even painted as such in his portraits, but some historians argue that this portrayal of Richard III was deliberately construed by the Tudors who followed Richard III, pointing to contemporary accounts that paint the king in a more positive light.

Additionally, I once attended a debate that sought to prove that Richard's paintings were altered after his death, to add a hunch and that his physical issues were all lies (side note, they found his body, and while I haven't been up-to-date on the analysis they did , that should be interesting as well; I'm merely referencing the written/drawn records we have). All this, and Richard lived far more recently in relation to the 21st century than the Others did to current Westeros.

The body has been positively identified through a combination of DNA and a curvature of the spine. He doesn't actually appear to have been a hunchback but one shoulder was noticeably higher than the other creating the appearance of one.

[Matthew.]

....which is why I suggest that the faces are not carved at all, whether with obsidian, bronze or iron, but instead the trees take on the faces of those sacrificed to them - and if that's so it also means that the Pact was sealed on the Isle of Faces not with handshaking but a significant blood sacrifice.

Agreed, and this is the one murky area of ancient history where I feel absolute certainty--that the Pact required not only the initial sacrifice on the Isle of Faces, but for men to restore the Godswoods with some Nissa Nissa-level sacrifices of their own line, eg the Stark-like features on the weirwood face outside of Winterfell. I consider it to be a rough parallel to the way Rhaego was used to 'seed' the dragon eggs.

Where I might be taking that initial notion into crazy town is that I find it notable that nearly all of faces we've been shown so far are in the Godswoods' of places where men dwell; thus, it's not unreasonable to assume that they mostly post-date the Pact, and across the board, the faces do not seem pleased, which is significant to my own notion of the Others.

In short, even though it's the bodies of Craster's sons being used as the offering/changeling to produce the present day WW's, I think the 'mind' comes from the weirwoods. Specifically, those FM that were sacrificed to create the heart trees, but, as reflected in their expressions, are far from pleased with their own deification. Thus, Craster's 'curse,' which I think was more widely borne before the NK was overthrown, is about more than just swelling the ranks, it's about giving back the lives stolen from the Neverborn.

Edit: Also, this is why they speak the True Tongue, and why the LH needed the Singers to provide neutral ground, and intermediate

[Black Crow]

Haven't heard that one before... but I like it. Come to think of it, we've never seen one looking peaceful or happy, have we? (Edit: yes, we have, in the grove. So either a willing sacrifice, or else the faces are carved after all)

This theory also puts a somewhat disturbing spin on the fact that most of the faces are human, not CotF....

What is also interesting is how the wildlings are carving faces into (non-weirwood) trees south of the Wall now. I wonder if this actually helps the old gods (aka BR & Bran) see through those trees' eyes, or if the wildlings don't really know what they are doing and it's more a symbolic gesture to show their old gods they still follow them even though they were forced to burn the weirwood pieces to get across the Wall. It sounds to me that what you are suggesting is that blood sacrifice is needed to 'activate' a weirwood; it gives it a face which the GS can then use to observe the world. (I'm pretty sure many people believe a sacrifice is needed for activation, regardless of whether the face is created this way or was carved earlier). So I would guess without a blood sacrifice and using the wrong tree, the wildlings aren't really doing Bran any favors but rather being rebellious against Mel and R'hllor.

There's a lot of emphasis in the World Book on human sacrifice to weirwoods and a note that it has been happening in the North at least as recently as 400 years ago, while conversely its also pretty firmly noted that the children also sacrificed their own to the trees. It might also be significant that Mormont talked of Craster giving his sons "to the wood".

As to the trees being carved by the Wildlings south of the Wall I'm not sure. They don't appear to be weirwoods, which would tend to suggest its a combination of the Wildlings at one and the same time trying to maintain a sense of normality while saying Up Yours to the Red Witch, but on the other hand Jon particularly notes that they are positioned so as to "watch" the roads, and I'm also minded of Qhorin's warning that the trees have eyes again.

[Voice]

There's no doubting that the cold makes it possible to move south without melting but there is a distinction, as we're agreed, between moving south intent on conquest and ravaging the countryside by way of strategy as Gregor Clegane did in the Riverlands. The point being if Clegane did what he did at Lord Tywin's command whether that command was explicit or deniably implicit, who is using Craster's boys and why?

While I mislike the strict adherence to referring to white walkers as Craster's sons, we are agreed Ser, the who and why behind their migration is The Question.

We must, unfortunately IMO, acknowledge here the depiction of Night's King in the television series. HBO's reaction to the original episode synopsis is very telling. I think an obvious inference from it, as we've discussed, is that they goofed and gave away more than the publishers and/or GRRM were ready to disclose. Namely, naming the weir-headed lad, "Night's King." Their hasty clean-up tells me this is an important slip.

[Voice]

Perhaps the analogy works better if we consider the Others (cold demons made of ice) the equivalents of Tywin Lannister, Stannis Baratheon, and Roose Bolton - all described as cold, hard men who command from the rear, sending monsters and shadows into the field to do their dirty work.

Agreed

[Voice]

Now about the long night and the Others... I agree completely that they aren't any worse than many humans we have already encountered. In fact, we don't hear anything about them torturing people just for fun (Ramsey, Joffrey) or nailing people to crosses to die in the sun (Mereenese masters, Dany). There also aren't any reports of rape, though some wildling women apparently "lay with them" voluntarily.

I disagree, as wolfmaid will no doubt remember ;) Ser Waymar Royce was mocked, played with, butchered, and laughed at by the Others in the Prologue of AGOT.

[Voice]

There's a lot of emphasis in the World Book on human sacrifice to weirwoods and a note that it has been happening in the North at least as recently as 400 years ago, while conversely its also pretty firmly noted that the children also sacrificed their own to the trees. It might also be significant that Mormont talked of Craster giving his sons "to the wood".

As to the trees being carved by the Wildlings south of the Wall I'm not sure. They don't appear to be weirwoods, which would tend to suggest its a combination of the Wildlings at one and the same time trying to maintain a sense of normality while saying Up Yours to the Red Witch, but on the other hand Jon particularly notes that they are positioned so as to "watch" the roads, and I'm also minded of Qhorin's warning that the trees have eyes again.

This may have been brought up in the previous thread where Weirwood Faces were discussed, but why couldn't the visage be of the Man/Woman needed to be sacrificed - in the future? It would serve a purpose, and explain the bones in the mouth at White Tree. People searching for the One needed to appease the Gods. I think it is quite noteworthy we have yet to see a face above BR/Bran's cave. Perhaps once the appropriate One is identified, slain, and his/her blood given to the wood, the face disappears and the Weirwood is then connected to the weirnet, throne ready - like the tree's need for a paste in order to connect to the lives of Men...

[Black Crow]

Its the matter of the screaming face in particular which suggests to me that the tree takes on the visage of the sacrifice rather than has it pre-cut

[Black Crow]

Perhaps the analogy works better if we consider the Others (cold demons made of ice) the equivalents of Tywin Lannister, Stannis Baratheon, and Roose Bolton - all described as cold, hard men who command from the rear, sending monsters and shadows into the field to do their dirty work.

That may be true up to a point in that they "command" the wights but I'm still inclined to look further up the food chain for the true masters. It you want to stick with this analogy you might rather equate Craster's boys with Gregor Clegane and Ramsay Bolton and then start looking for who is commanding them.

[Matthew.]

I disagree, as wolfmaid will no doubt remember ;) Ser Waymar Royce was mocked, played with, butchered, and laughed at by the Others in the Prologue of AGOT.

IMHO, the protracted nature of Royce's death is more for the sake of our surviving witness, Gared, than simple sadism. I think everything about that attack was planned, rather than pure chance encounter, to both send a message and prompt a response.

From Mormont's perspective, he has a missing nobleman's son, and a survivor who has been in the Watch even longer than Mormont himself fleeing south of the Wall in terror with tales of the Others. This is something that is impossible for Mormont to ignore, so he sets his First Ranger to the task of accounting for the whereabouts of Royce; a First Ranger who, not coincidentally, disappears shortly thereafter, and also happens to be a Son of Winterfell.

[wolfmaid7]

I disagree, as wolfmaid will no doubt remember ;) Ser Waymar Royce was mocked, played with, butchered, and laughed at by the Others in the Prologue of AGOT.

I remember quite correctly and being a student of Anthropology and having worked in remote places world wide I know first hand how what we think we hear may not be what we think it is.Its first contact dude all about First contact.

What Waymar heard how it sounded to him may well be different. I take a completely different take from it.And given GRRM's play on moral ambiguity with these first contact situations I daresay im right.

You see it as cold butchery because you are seeing through the eyes of human perspective. I choose to be objective taking in consideration the situation and the fact that ive seen this play out in real life and in myth andoother literature many times before.

[Black Crow]

IMHO, the protracted nature of Royce's death is more for the sake of our surviving witness, Gared, than simple sadism. I think everything about that attack was planned, rather than pure chance encounter, to both send a message and prompt a response.

I wouldn't say it was particularly protracted in the circumstances athough booby-trapping his body to catch Will suggests a certain grim humour. I'm not so sure though about characterising Gared as a witness. Its not at all clear what, if anything, he actually saw although we have speculated in the past the price of sparing his life might have been an undertaking to convoy the She-Wolf through the Wall