Heresy 142 [World of Ice and Fire spoilers]

[Black Crow]

way off subject but i watched Legend with tom cruise and i think the book is based on that :) we got unicorns never ending winter because the balance of the world was thrown off. elf like kid thats really old like a child of the forest we got caves with white roots growing thru and i hero to save the day and restore balance. LOL if im right what a kick in the balls that'd be

I don't know where Legend comes from in literary terms but we have in Heresy discussed how a lot of the elements you mention and more come up much earlier in C.S. Lewis' Narnia stories - including the land of always winter.

[Black Crow]

It does make sense to bring the Watch to the fight rather than the fight to the Watch.

I agree and to a large extent I think this aspect of the story has to be read as it is without over-analysing things. Splendid as it is the story is still a work of fiction in which certain things have to happen as and when they do in order to achieve both short and long term objectives, even if sometimes the timing and circumstances might seem to be stretching things a little.

That being said its reasonable to suppose that there are alliances and old allegiances at work here and that the strangely slow pace of events suggests that beyond the dead, who are dead and have no say in the matter, we're looking at a threat which although real is one which has been created or manipulated by parties unknown and while I hesitate very much to link them I'd say that the situation is analagous to what's going on with Varys, in that all we know is that something is going on and that things are not as they appear. Hence the suggestion that Crasters boys are not the forerunners of a massive invasion but are instead creating the illusion of one.

[Voice]

It takes a far greater leap of the imagination to conjure unwritten character development for white walkers in which they are benevolently easing Ser Waymar's demise than it does to simply accept the cold butchery Martin wrote.

And I agree regarding the over-analyzing. Though given the span between books, I think we ought be forgiven :)

[Frey family reunion]

I don't recall that suggestion, but the scene does remind me of the one in Interview with a Vampire where the Paris lot have taken over a theatre and a young woman is brought on to the stage as part of the show, stripped and then bitten by the "vampire". At that point the scene cuts to an overhead shot in which we see all the other black-cloaked vampires spring on top and devour her.

And an example even closer to home, the shades at the House of the Undying who converge and start literally sucking on Daeneaerys.

[DarkRose_9]

It takes a far greater leap of the imagination to conjure unwritten character development for white walkers in which they are benevolently easing Ser Waymar's demise than it does to simply accept the cold butchery Martin wrote.

And I agree regarding the over-analyzing. Though given the span between books, I think we ought be forgiven :)

Next thing you know we'll be writing fanfiction about the Others; sort of a "Wicked" on Ice type of thing. :P

[Matthew.]

That being said its reasonable to suppose that there are alliances and old allegiances at work here and that the strangely slow pace of events suggests that beyond the dead, who are dead and have no say in the matter, we're looking at a threat which although real is one which has been created or manipulated by parties unknown and while I hesitate very much to link them I'd say that the situation is analagous to what's going on with Varys, in that all we know is that something is going on and that things are not as they appear. Hence the suggestion that Crasters boys are not the forerunners of a massive invasion but are instead creating the illusion of one.

I suppose I just like the notion that Mance is partially responsible for what's going on with the WW's because I like Mance as a character, and think he's about to kick off something huge from Winterfell; I don't think his interest in those crypts was just about recreating Bael the Bard, and hiding down there with Fake Arya.

[Black Crow]

It takes a far greater leap of the imagination to conjure unwritten character development for white walkers in which they are benevolently easing Ser Waymar's demise than it does to simply accept the cold butchery Martin wrote.

And I agree regarding the over-analyzing. Though given the span between books, I think we ought be forgiven :)

Exactly so as to the first. To some extent they are and they do and that's to a very large extent all we need to know other than the real question as to who they really owe allegiance to and why. That does bear analysis

[Black Crow]

I suppose I just like the notion that Mance is partially responsible for what's going on with the WW's because I like Mance as a character, and think he's about to kick off something huge from Winterfell; I don't think his interest in those crypts was just about recreating Bael the Bard, and hiding down there with Fake Arya.

Absolutely. I think the timing is off as to him letting loose the shades. Craster's boys were already around before that happened. Exactly where Mance does fit in is wide open to speculation but I think we can safely conclude that his pose as a poor but honest leader trying to do best by his people is false enough to make a dog spew.

[wolfmaid7]

It takes a far greater leap of the imagination to conjure unwritten character development for white walkers in which they are benevolently easing Ser Waymar's demise than it does to simply accept the cold butchery Martin wrote.

And I agree regarding the over-analyzing. Though given the span between books, I think we ought be forgiven :)

As I said your are taking my statements where I was going.This isn't about making them the wws out to be benevolent or angels so you can pork continuously insinuating that as my statement.

In a story where every death down to poisoning is a yucky affair it would be nonsensical to believe otherwise.

My statement was directed at "how" they go about a fight which I believe based on comparison to the humans in this story puts them(humans) to shame. This is my point and I still hold to it.Its not about creating characterization of them but comparing their approach to their human counter parts.

It goes to that theme of "demonizing" the monsters when the monsters are really yourselves. George gave us prime examples of that

[Black Crow]

And an example even closer to home, the shades at the House of the Undying who converge and start literally sucking on Daeneaerys.

Its an interesting parallel but to be honest it was the visual imagery of the film which I found so striking.

[Black Crow]

As I said your are taking my statements where I was going.This isn't about making them the wws out to be benevolent or angels so you can pork continuously insinuating that as my statement.

In a story where every death down to poisoning is a yucky affair it would be nonsensical to believe otherwise.

My statement was directed at "how" they go about a fight which I believe based on comparison to the humans in this story puts them to shame. This is my point and I still hold to it.Its not about creating characterization of them but comparing their approach to their human counter parts.

I would say that their behaviour had nothing to do with chivalry or even mercy and everything to do with being human. Rather try comparing the fight with GRRM's battle-scenes where men are literally hammered into the ground.

[wolfmaid7]

I agree and to a large extent I think this aspect of the story has to be read as it is without over-analysing things. Splendid as it is the story is still a work of fiction in which certain things have to happen as and when they do in order to achieve both short and long term objectives, even if sometimes the timing and circumstances might seem to be stretching things a little.

That being said its reasonable to suppose that there are alliances and old allegiances at work here and that the strangely slow pace of events suggests that beyond the dead, who are dead and have no say in the matter, we're looking at a threat which although real is one which has been created or manipulated by parties unknown and while I hesitate very much to link them I'd say that the situation is analagous to what's going on with Varys, in that all we know is that something is going on and that things are not as they appear. Hence the suggestion that Crasters boys are not the forerunners of a massive invasion but are instead creating the illusion of one.

This to me is a bit of an over analyzing and casting the wws as master strategists when we've not seen that.I don't but that they planted Othor and Jaffar to be found.I say that because it was by sheer coincidence they were.Members of the NW weren't going to stumble on them where they were.

It makes sense they were making their way to the Wall any way at play driving them there.Given what happened after once they were in (faster method) they set out to get Mormont who would have been wighted.His guard would have been wighted.By morning the watch would have been gone.

That seemed to be the plan to turn the watch thereby taking control of the Wall.No drawing out the Watch for battle which when you go through from beginning to end of them being found to making a move on Mormont could never had been the plan.It was infiltration.

And sorry what the wws have shown especially in that fight with Sam and co strategic wise they aint to bright.

[wolfmaid7]

I would say that their behaviour had nothing to do with chivalry or even mercy and everything to do with being human. Rather try comparing the fight with GRRM's battle-scenes where men are literally hammered into the ground.

I disagree I can think of three.What defines us as that.In these events I think that's what he did humanize the monsters and showed humans can be monsters. Again this has nothing with anything but "the approach"

[Matthew.]

I think the timing is off as to him letting loose the shades. Craster's boys were already around before that happened.

True, I'm getting into wildly speculative territory, and certainly the broader gathering on the Frostfangs, and subsequent(?) search for the Horn post-dates Craster's boys. I'm suggesting that Mance was at work long before he'd begun contending with the other potential kings beyond the Wall, and that he and some of his closest followers (Dalla, Val, Ygritte, etc.) had been to the Frostfangs before.

I think Ygritte knew a lot more than she was willing to fully reveal to Jon; not just the comment about the shades, but the comment about how Craster bears a heavy curse.

Granted, both comments can be more straightforwardly explained as superstition; fear of disturbing the dead as a consequence of grave digging, and a belief that the Old Gods will curse Craster for his daughter wives and sacrifices.

[Matthew.]

This to me is a bit of an over analyzing and casting the wws as master strategists when we've not seen that.I don't but that they planted Othor and Jaffar to be found.I say that because it was by sheer coincidence they were.Members of the NW weren't going to stumble on them where they were.

Then please allow me to repost Mormont's quote on the discovery:

"Two of our brothers butchered almost within sight of the Wall, yet your rangers heard nothing, saw nothing. Is this what the Night's Watch has fallen to? Do we still sweep these woods?"

Later, Sam's examination reveals that where the bodies were found is not where they died. Taken with Mormont's quote, that suggests they would have eventually been found.

That doesn't necessarily mean this was a master plan to lure out the NW, but at the least, they took a shot at killing Mormont.

And sorry what the wws have shown especially in that fight with Sam and co strategic wise they aint to bright.

Craster's boys might not be too bright, but what of their master(s)?

[wolfmaid7]

Then please allow me to repost Mormont's quote on the discovery:

"Two of our brothers butchered almost within sight of the Wall, yet your rangers heard nothing, saw nothing. Is this what the Night's Watch has fallen to? Do we still sweep these woods?"

Later, Sam's examination reveals that where the bodies were found is not where they died. Taken with Mormont's quote, that suggests they would have eventually been found.

That doesn't necessarily mean this was a master plan to lure out the NW, but at the least, they took a shot at killing Mormont.

Craster's boys might not be too bright, but what of their master(s)?

I disagree with you that they would have been found...........they would have reached that wall had Ghost not found them in their dormancy period.It is clear they were moving toward the Wall.They just ran out of time and were just unable to move.If anything Mormont's chastisment prooved that they wern't combing the woods near the Wall at all. If they wanted to be found they would have made it easier than Ghost's nose. So i go back to my point they were heading to the Wall.

The bolded part is the point i'm trying to make. Now I don't believe the wws are responsible for raising and driving the movements of the wights....But that is the point i'm getting saying that the wws dropped them off does not jive with the evidence. There need be no wws setting traps for anyone when there is a direct link from the necromancer to the wights.My take on the wws involvement with the wights maybe different,but i hold to the notion that they are not the Wights masters. The wws themselves may be bound themselves in some way(oo i never thought of that) or they may not be and serve another purpose and just being overwhelmed.But this is a case where the culprit is higher up the food chain than them and i'm going with a Greenseer. The temp change when they were found was very very off.

I don't think it was about just killing Mormont for killing him sake.As i said in my post before,those two come morning could have done a lot of damage. The watch would have been bound by sorcery and everyone turned to wights had Jon and Ghost not intervened.They would have taken the Watch control the Wall by stealth.

[Matthew.]

I disagree with you that they would have been found...........

The full conversation between Mormont and Ser Jaremy implies that the haunted forest is an area that is normally patrolled. Furthermore, the bodies are near a weirwood grove, which is going to be a destination for any of the men in the NW that keep to the Old Gods, should they need to pray, or give their vows. That the bodies would eventually have been come across doesn't seem particularly extraordinary to me.

...they would have reached that wall had Ghost not found them in their dormancy period.

And once they reach the Wall, how will they gain entrance? One horn blast for rangers returning--that'll certainly put a damper on them being able to attack men in their sleep. Surely there are men keeping watch on the gates, even under normal circumstances, and Mormont's going to want immediate word if Benjen or his men return.

How, then, are our gatekeepers going to fail to notice that Othor and Jafer dead, especially with Jafer walking around with a giant axe wound in his neck? What happens if someone tries to talk to them?

But that is the point i'm getting saying that the wws dropped them off does not jive with the evidence.

I'm not suggesting they were physically hand-delivered by WWs. They brought themselves under 'direction;' either from the WWs that raised them, or their master, assuming it's someone else in the Other hierarchy doing the necromancy.

[Black Crow]

This to me is a bit of an over analyzing and casting the wws as master strategists when we've not seen that.I don't but that they planted Othor and Jaffar to be found.I say that because it was by sheer coincidence they were.Members of the NW weren't going to stumble on them where they were.

I think we're arguing at cross-purposes here because I'm not casting them as strategists at all. Rather when I suggest that they are creating the illusion of a threat they are doing so at the behest of their master not as something they have dreamed up all by themselves, which is why I keep suggesting that we should not be getting hung up on Craster's boys per say but rather trying to figure out who is behind them.

[Black Crow]

True, I'm getting into wildly speculative territory, and certainly the broader gathering on the Frostfangs, and subsequent(?) search for the Horn post-dates Craster's boys. I'm suggesting that Mance was at work long before he'd begun contending with the other potential kings beyond the Wall, and that he and some of his closest followers (Dalla, Val, Ygritte, etc.) had been to the Frostfangs before.

I think Ygritte knew a lot more than she was willing to fully reveal to Jon; not just the comment about the shades, but the comment about how Craster bears a heavy curse.

The first I think is broadly in line with what some of us are suggesting.

As to Craster this is very much at the heart of Heresy. Craster considers himself a godly man and gives up his sons as a willing sacrifice because it is his duty. What's significant here is the wording. Ygritte doesn't say he is accursed by the gods as a kinslayer, but instead says that he "bears a heavy curse" which suggests that it is a curse which he has inherited and we have speculated in the past that he is akin to a sin-eater; the other Wildlings know what he does but far from turning up with flaming torches and pitchforks they leave him be and perhaps even supply the wives who are not his daughters because by his giving his sons to the Gods, they don't have to.

ETA: and his so peremptorily dealing with Mance's messenger - who is conspicuously unavenged - suggests not only that he considers himself safe, as he tells Mormont, but may also know what Mance is really up to. After all its his sons who are doing the dirty work.

[wolfmaid7]

I think we're arguing at cross-purposes here because I'm not casting them as strategists at all. Rather when I suggest that they are creating the illusion of a threat they are doing so at the behest of their master not as something they have dreamed up all by themselves, which is why I keep suggesting that we should not be getting hung up on Craster's boys per say but rather trying to figure out who is behind them.

I get what you're saying i don't agree with all of it though and that's because with respect to Othor and Jaffa's presence they need not have been "dropped of/delivered/set" by wws to do what they were being driven to do.That to me was the unessaccery part ,saying that the wws planted them there at that spot( when in all likeihood they got there because they walked and just went dormant because what moves them couldn't operate in a warm,light environment) was to much of a leap in context.I agree with you and i have been saying this for the longest while and i think we agree with this the wws are one big ass red herring in that they aint running things.To reiterate i don't think it was about "drawing" the Watch out for anything,but this seemed more apt to enslave the Watch during the night while most everyone was asleep.