Heresy 142 [World of Ice and Fire spoilers]

[wolfmaid7]

LOL

This perception of mercy truly boggles my mind wolfmaid. When Waymar was on his knees, screaming, blinded by having his eyes torn asunder with shards of his frozen and broken joke of a sword, Crackles could have simply offed his head, as Ned did for Gared.

Crackles could have given him the coup de grace, as Osha did for Maester Luwin.

Those would have been merciful and honorable ways to kill a vanquished foe. Seven hells, even leaving him there to die or survive on his own would have been more honorable, as Arya did with the Hound.

Instead, they surrounded him, and chopped at him while he screamed and cried. It is never written that this slicing and dicing was short in duration. Will doesn't want to look, but he can't help but hear the carnage beneath. This does not, from any point of view, imply they wanted to ease Waymar's suffering.

The laughter at the end should end the argument. I know for you it doesn't end the argument. And you see such protestations as thinking too humanly. You don't think they should be held to a human code of conduct. I would argue that not even dogs exhibit such cruel and sadistic behavior. Orca whales might, lol. The torment and murder of Ser Waymar Royce was more akin to the Bastard of Bolton's work, or the Bloody Mummers, than a schoolyard brawl. It was sadistic and cruel by any measuring stick.

:commie: :commie: :commie:

In loving memory of Ser Waymar Royce

278AC to 297AC

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

Ser Waymar met him bravely. “Dance with me then.” He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant. His hands trembled from the weight of it, or perhaps from the cold. Yet in that moment, Will thought, he was a boy no longer, but a man of the Night's Watch.

The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope.

They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them . . . four . . . five . . . Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them. Will had to call out. It was his duty. And his death, if he did. He shivered, and hugged the tree, and kept the silence.

The pale sword came shivering through the air.

Ser Waymar met it with steel. When the blades met, there was no ring of metal on metal; only a high, thin sound at the edge of hearing, like an animal screaming in pain. Royce checked a second blow, and a third, then fell back a step. Another flurry of blows, and he fell back again.

Behind him, to right, to left, all around him, the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood. Yet they made no move to interfere.

Again and again the swords met, until Will wanted to cover his ears against the strange anguished keening of their clash. Ser Waymar was panting from the effort now, his breath steaming in the moonlight. His blade was white with frost; the Other’s danced with pale blue light.

Then Royce’s parry came a beat too late. The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow. Ser Waymar’s fingers brushed his side. His moleskin glove came away soaked with red.

The Other said something in a language that Will did not know, his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking.

Ser Waymar Royce found his fury. "For Robert!" he shouted, and he came up snarling, lifting the frost-covered longsword with both hands and swinging it around in a flat sidearm slash with all his weight behind it. The Other's parry was almost lazy.

When the blades touched, the steel shattered.

A scream echoed through the forest night, and the longsword shivered into a hundred brittle pieces, the shards scattering like a rain of needles. Royce went to his knees, shrieking, and covered his eyes. Blood welled between his fingers.

The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles.

When he found the courage to look again, a long time had passed, and the ridge below was empty.

He stayed in the tree, scarce daring to breathe, while the moon crept slowly across the black sky. Finally, his muscles cramping and his fingers numb with cold, he climbed down.

Royce’s body lay facedown in the snow, one arm outflung. The thick sable cloak had been slashed in a dozen places. Lying dead like that, you saw how young he was. A boy.

He found what was left of the sword a few feet away, the end splintered and twisted like a tree struck by lightning. Will knelt, looked around warily, and snatched it up. The broken sword would be his proof. Gared would know what to make of it, and if not him, then surely that old bear Mormont or Maester Aemon. Would Gared still be waiting with the horses? He had to hurry.

Will rose. Ser Waymar Royce stood over him.

His fine clothes were a tatter, his face a ruin. A shard from his sword transfixed the blind white pupil of his left eye.

The right eye was open. The pupil burned blue. It saw.

The broken sword fell from nerveless fingers. Will closed his eyes to pray. Long, elegant hands brushed his cheek, then tightened around his throat. They were gloved in the finest moleskin and sticky with blood, yet the touch was icy cold.

Then let it boggle you as always there is two sides of looking at things and my side is different but no less valid.

No matter how many ways you cut it i can pick behaviors from their interactions that put us to shame.But when it comes to this.

1.You nor i nor Will knows their language we cannot say that what they did was actual laughter or that it was mocking. No matter how it sounded to Will the only base he has for that conclusion again is human.

2. Behind him, to right, to left, all around him, the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood. Yet they made no move to interfere."

Alright then why didn't the rest interfere? They are savage are they not why wait until...Waymar was done for

3.And he was done for it....We can't judge why at this moment when it was clear that Waymar was not going to last all 6 of them decided to do that together.BC is right in that there are aspects of it that mirrors medival style. It was a savage time if they chose to poke him in the heart in an environment where we have men flaying people,and cleaving them in two ,cutting their heads off i'd be shocked.

I'm saying what they did was better than leaving Waymar bleeding out for Will to try to make it to the Wall with him.He would have died and done so more painfully along the way.

MO that isn't going to change.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

It is written that the others laughed. Not sounded like or may have been laughter. Just because someone speaks another language does not make a laugh discernable.

As to the killing, lets look at Gared. Gared was condemned, a dead man already. One could say at the beheading performed by Ned, if all the Stark kids grabbed their swords and sliced up Gared it would not be cruel? That would be no different than a quick beheading? He was going to die anyway.

I think it's fitting that Gared's scene comes directly after the butchery in the prologue, and probably purposefully. It contrasts the execution of execution by Ned and the white walkers.

[wolfmaid7]

It is written that the others laughed. Not sounded like or may have been laughter. Just because someone speaks another language does not make a laugh discernable.

As to the killing, lets look at Gared. Gared was condemned, a dead man already. One could say at the beheading performed by Ned, if all the Stark kids grabbed their swords and sliced up Gared it would not be cruel? That would be no different than a quick beheading? He was going to die anyway.

I think it's fitting that Gared's scene comes directly after the butchery in the prologue, and probably purposefully. It contrasts the execution of execution by Ned and the white walkers.

I think there is a disconnect with what i'm saying and what you are hearing,so i'll go again. This is a POV it is written from Will's point of view.What things looked and sounded like from his vantage point.

You're asking if it is discernable the laughter of someone from a different culture yes i'm sure it is.But let's look at what Will says:

"The Other said something in a language that Will did not know, his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking."

"The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles."

This is all subjective based on what the language sound like to the ear. No different than humans referring to the Hyena call as laughing.Its what it sounds like but,its not what it is.

I'm not arguing there cruelty,as i said arguing the mode of killing in a story where 99.99% of the killings are pretty cruel.

I don't see any different in "the act" compared to a lot of people in this story good or bad.I see a difference and this was my point in how they fight compared to characters good and bad.

i.e The fight between Ned and Jaime-How one of Jaime's men chose to intervene and when.Ned at a point was clearly outnumberd

Sam and Co against Ser Puddles,he was outnumbered.

I think GRRM is showing differences and at times showing us ourselves how we look at things.

Another example,if the wws are picking up Craster's baby no matter what we think happens to the babies.Who are the monsters.Them for picking the babes up,or the parents for dumping them in the cold?

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

short answer the parents are def shit bags. :) And the White walkers are almost certainly laughing they arent animals like a hyena is, in some way theyre human based and pretty sure laughing is laughing for all humans. Even in a different language u can usually tell if someone is mocking you. I married into a Greek family so believe me i know :)

[Black Crow]

I have to say I'm a touch bemused as to the argument here. Ser Waymar and one of the brothers fought singly, while the others watched. Nothing at all unusual in this. If they had rushed in while the two were fighting they would only have gotten in the way and ruined the show.

Then Ser Waymar goes down. If there was any chivalry involved all the first brother had to do was finish him off as singly as he had fought him, but instead all of them rushed in and hacked him to death - its all very straightforward and all very human and that, if anything is the point. There was nothing exceptional in the manner of Ser Waymar's dying and nothing uniquely horrific in his end.

[Frey family reunion]

I've forgotten whose theory this was, but someone suggested that the WW's were basically "feasting" on Waymer's First Man's blood (and perhaps King's blood as well). Which is why they converge after being given a silent signal by the first White Walker and dip their swords in Waymer's blood.

[wolfmaid7]

I have to say I'm a touch bemused as to the argument here. Ser Waymar and one of the brothers fought singly, while the others watched. Nothing at all unusual in this. If they had rushed in while the two were fighting they would only have gotten in the way and ruined the show.

Then Ser Waymar goes down. If there was any chivalry involved all the first brother had to do was finish him off as singly as he had fought him, but instead all of them rushed in and hacked him to death - its all very straightforward and all very human and that, if anything is the point. There was nothing exceptional in the manner of Ser Waymar's dying and nothing uniquely horrific in his end.

I think the arguement is being befuddled by notions of chivalry from the "ice band". It was a duel and Waymar lost.I disagree to some aspect it was human;like i pointed out we've not seen humans not act in that regards where they stood back and watched. That was my point the way in which the approach a fight is what i'm drawing the comparison with.

Plus to me its intriguing seeing as Waymar was all intense and purpose dying at that point,as you say Ser Crackles could have finished him off.Yet all of them did it in sync.That made me think that there is a reason be it rites of passage,ritualistic,props to a worthy fallen foe etc.

[wolfmaid7]

I've forgotten whose theory this was, but someone suggested that the WW's were basically "feasting" on Waymer's First Man's blood (and perhaps King's blood as well). Which is why they converge after being given a silent signal by the first White Walker and dip their swords in Waymer's blood.

You see this is what i mean,be it true or not that single act of having "all" of them partake was not just for the sake of brutality and cruelty.

[Voice]

While I very much hesitate to get into this again (I do believe we, too, had a rather lengthy discussion about this at one point ;) ), perhaps we could agree that while this group of Others seems to be enjoying Royce's death a little too much, they are really not on a level with the likes of Ramsey Bolton, who kept Theon imprisoned for months and flayed one body part at a time before cutting it off altogether (but only if he begged). We could argue back and forth about how long it took Royce to die, but I would suggest it couldn't have been more than a minute or so from when the "cold butchery" began, seeing as his armor apparently provided no protection whatsoever and there were 5 of them hacking away at him. Will makes no mention of any attempts to crawl away or defend himself, or begging for mercy as might have been expected if they had toyed with him for an extended period of time. They certainly could have made it quicker, which would have been the kinder thing to do, but a minute is not that long compared to Theon's ordeal, or Brandon Stark strangling himself while watching his father burn; the Meereenese masters likely took hours to die on those crosses, not to mention Qyburn's "patients" who can no longer feed themselves after a couple of weeks in his care.

It seems to me the most evil deeds we have witnesses so far have been committed by men, not Others. That may well change, but at present I would compare them more to the Hound (who openly enjoys killing, and yet many of us have a soft spot for him) or perhaps Jaime, who was initially also cast in a very negative light but has since redeemed himself somewhat in many readers' eyes. ( I know you won't agree with the last part, and that's ok. We can agree to disagree. :))

I do recall Ser, ;) lol

We do not know how long it took, for the cold butchery to end Waymar's life. That is precisely the point I was making. There is not hint of it being immediate in the text. Only that it was a long while before Will found the courage to look down again.

For me, this conjures an image of something other than mercifully putting Waymar to death. And I am content to agree to disagree, though I agree with you about Jaime.

Perhaps an even better analogy for the Others' behavior in the Prologue can be found at Castle Black. Under the tutelage of Ser Alliser Thorne, new recruits are sent to harry the Bastard. He defeats them one by one. And quickly earns their loathing. Why?

"Yes, life," Noye said. "A long life or a short one, it's up to you, Snow. The road you're walking, one of your brothers will slit your throat for you one night."

"They're not my brothers," Jon snapped. "They hate me because I'm better than they are."

"No. They hate you because you act like you're better than they are. They look at you and see a castle-bred bastard who thinks he's a lordling." The armorer leaned close. "You're no lordling. Remember that. You're a Snow, not a Stark. You're a bastard and a bully."

"A bully?" Jon almost choked on the word. The accusation was so unjust it took his breath away. "They were the ones who came after me. Four of them."

"Four that you've humiliated in the yard. Four who are probably afraid of you. I've watched you fight. It's not training with you. Put a good edge on your sword, and they'd be dead meat; you know it, I know it, they know it. You leave them nothing. You shame them. Does that make you proud?"

Ser Waymar was left with nothing. Crackles shamed him. Mocked him. He was a bully. But Jon didn't laugh at Gren and Pyp once he forced them to yield. Nor did he blind them in the process. Nor did he encircle them with his pack and start shredding their bodies, while they all enjoyed a good laugh.

I agree we have seen far more disturbing acts of violence and torture carried out by the hands of Men. But, there have not been many Men in the series who have personally taken a life with such jest and frivolity as we have seen in the final minutes of Ser Waymar.

Now this I can agree with! Especially in light of the earlier discussion and the weirwood with the slitted eyes in the lake by Stannis' camp. I forget who looked it up, but apparently Stannis is the only human described with slitted eyes..... you know what they say, there is power in king's blood. :devil:

:cheers: Cheers, Ser. And yes, that's exactly what I was alluding to - my money is on Stannis for that tree.

I'm not firm on this idea, just tossing out multiple angles how I like to do. But, for me, it does make a bit more sense than a heart tree taking on the face of someone already sacrificed to it. If we believe the history mentioned in the text, there have been many and more sacrifices at heart trees. And sacrifices performed at weirwoods that already had faces. The face does not then change, right? So I think if a tree's face is in any way connected to the specific identity of an individual's sacrifice before it, it must be the face it is waiting for...

Another, more inferential alternative, may be that the face resembles the collective combination of all ever sacrificed to it. As we have had fewer Singers around than we have had Men for the last thousands of years it makes sense that the trees' faces would resemble those of Men in this case. Although, this theory would tend to shorten the duration of CotF habitation of Westeros prior to the arrival of First Men for the effects to be so complete today...Or...maybe it would mean that CotF have always harvested Men to sacrifice to their happy little trees. I can see BC liking that angle :)

[Black Crow]

I've forgotten whose theory this was, but someone suggested that the WW's were basically "feasting" on Waymer's First Man's blood (and perhaps King's blood as well). Which is why they converge after being given a silent signal by the first White Walker and dip their swords in Waymer's blood.

I don't recall that suggestion, but the scene does remind me of the one in Interview with a Vampire where the Paris lot have taken over a theatre and a young woman is brought on to the stage as part of the show, stripped and then bitten by the "vampire". At that point the scene cuts to an overhead shot in which we see all the other black-cloaked vampires spring on top and devour her.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

It is humanly cruel. That's the point in the way the scene plays out. Laughing about butchering this chump who got served.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

So, like a feeding frenzy, without the actual feeding. Maybe more disdain at the warm blooded man who tried to fight the cold ones.

[Voice]

I've forgotten whose theory this was, but someone suggested that the WW's were basically "feasting" on Waymer's First Man's blood (and perhaps King's blood as well). Which is why they converge after being given a silent signal by the first White Walker and dip their swords in Waymer's blood.

I could see this. It actually makes a lot of sense as not all feasting is done with the mouth. And, ww's do not seem to have the same biological requirements as living Men. Their swords are not normal weapons to be sure. Maybe they are more like a female mosquito's proboscis...

[Black Crow]

Or perhaps like Elric's Stormbringer drinking the souls of those he slew

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Or they just wanted to see the blood and the mushy man flesh shredded.

[Voice]

Or perhaps like Elric's Stormbringer drinking the souls of those he slew

Nice

[wolfmaid7]

Or perhaps like Elric's Stormbringer drinking the souls of those he slew

Could be or.......imbuing there swords with the blood,strength and essence of their foes.

[Voice]

BC, did you see my post earlier? ...I was curious what you thought of possible pre-contact raiding parties of CotF venturing to Essos to abduct Men to sacrifice to their trees. Perhaps they knew of us long before we knew of them :)

[Black Crow]

BC, did you see my post earlier? ...I was curious what you thought of possible pre-contact raiding parties of CotF venturing to Essos to abduct Men to sacrifice to their trees. Perhaps they knew of us long before we knew of them :)

Interesting idea, but I'm not convinced of it. There's no hint of it in the World Book, which does on the other hand speak of the children sacrificing their own to work great magic - as well as prisoners, but all of that is in the context of the wars between men and the children

[Voice]

Fair enough